/tg/Station 13

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Or at least ban admins from viewing it. It's a fucking mess 24/7 and makes me want to scrub my eyes with steel wool. Can't you people go to your meta-discords to jerk each other off over politics?

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28261

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 53&t=27500

If you're an admin I implore you to take one for the team and nuke this channel. I'll personally gobble your glizzy if you do.

Farquaar wrote:

cacogen wrote:mso tricked us into destroying it ourselves

False. Feast your face on the truth.

The hut was an inside job. But who funded it? The Freemasons? The Catgirl Mafia?

Clearly there's only one solution to the problem of biased mods overlooking political posts of their own persuasion- we need to hire extremists of both flavours, for perfect balance in enforcement. I'm sure nothing can go wrong with this plan.

On a serious note, politics sap the life out of the community and frankly it does feel like 90% of the discord drama and bans come from that channel. I don't necessarily know if getting rid of it is a good idea, but I personally wouldn't be sad to see it gone. Keep politics for elections or *hurk* Twitter, and use the spessmen discord server to talk about, well, spessmen.

MrStonedOne wrote:What always happens is certain semi-political discussions are never enforced as against the rule unless a mod takes offence with the discussion. This isn't to say the mod in question is acting in bad faith but to say that if you see a discussion you don't like, you are more likely to subconsciously think about what rules it disobeys compared to a discussion you do like.

This is not a bug and is actually what happens on tg anyway, despite your claims to non bias, I just don't pretend otherwise unlike tg.

Good thing our rules are well known for being hard lines in both written and enforced

It's similar to no IC in OOC, something that might not be innately obvious to one user as being IC might be called out as such by another. Adding on to that, there are some levels of IC we DO allow in OOC such as asking mechanical questions that pretty much reveal you're playing a certain role. By the metric placed here, does that mean we should allow IC in OOC in general if it isnt targeting antagonists?

Obviously there are some discrepancies between them, but i dont really see where those differences change the crux of the argument that because it might not be enforced perfectly and some moderators might let it slip more than others that we cant have the rule in any capacity, especially right after we added the bigotry rule which again seems to be/would be enforced very differently between admins regardless of how it is currently written.

I'd say its more of a value judgement.

The benefits of the no bigotry rule out-weight the downsides.

The benefits of the no politics rule out-weight the downsides Only when a politics containment channel exists to mitigate the downsides.

How can a stoner be so correct all the time

It's like it makes his mind better which is not what you normally see.

MrStonedOne wrote:The benefits of the no politics rule out-weight the downsides Only when a politics containment channel exists to mitigate the downsides.

The no politics rule would be exclusive to the tg server (at least what would be enforced here), therefore there are already a theoretically infinite amount of "politics containment" channels these users will still have access to for the purpose of discussing these topics, just not on tgstation platforms.

Again this is not teamspeak or IRC where it isn't as intuitive to make your own discord server (4 clicks + textbox for the server itself) where you can post content the original server will not allow, or navigate to different servers if you're interested in discussing specific topics. Even the manuelites by day coomers by night figured this guy out.

The only downside to the removal from my end would be that users who wanted to talk about politics specifically with their tg "acquaintances" (if they were friends id assume they would have no prob inviting them somewhere else) can't anymore on the explicit tg server which to me isnt a problem because these discussions never go anywhere anyways unless you guys are secretly in congress or something, the elephant in the room is that we dont live in a vacuum and there are many places outside of tg you can discuss politics with that will usually provide a "better" discussion (lets assume theyll be career discord debaters that spend their life crafting the perfect political argument instead of tweaking their single-cap recipe) and at the very worst will at least be better tailored to discuss different topics than a Free-for-all channel every political topic under the sun is suppose to be funneled to because we supposedly dont want actually want it on the server.

Maybe im also imagining the enforcement a bit differently than you as well, im not expecting "wait you posted a post regarding (hot political topic)? fuck off *ban*". I'm expecting the standard admin message of "Hey can you take that discussion to dms or a different platform" by a user not comfortable with that topic, followed by an admin getting involved with warnings before kicks and bans are even brought up. If theres an issue here that would be on you to discuss with discord mods how they should be behaving (or whoever manages them, idek).

If the crux of the issue is you cannot trust admins to enforce it properly because you think theyll be too emotionally invested in the topic to the point they would repeatedly not have the realization the convo should be taken anywhere then I have a hard time understanding why you would want those kind of topics on your platform in the first place?

Like can someone give me the hot take on how we supposedly dislike the discussions enough that we have to make this one shitty channel to sorta please people but not enough to just say "please take that to a platform not on the official tg discord"? Just a reminder once more that tg is not the only server on discord, not even for people in the community tg (manuel hut being the most obvious). Please walk me through the why these discussions MUST exist explicitly on the tg server so I can better understand where it's coming from.

Banning politics all together is very short sighted. Instead of banning politics, have something more of a "political logistics". To give you an example, we need four political boards in reality. One board will be for left wing politics, one for right wing politics, one board for community elected officials that will represent each wings ideas in civil discussions, and a final board for third party (lol).

Saege Tilth wrote:Banning politics all together is very short sighted. Instead of banning politics, have something more of a "political logistics". To give you an example, we need four political boards in reality. One board will be for left wing politics, one for right wing politics, one board for community elected officials that will represent each wings ideas in civil discussions, and a final board for third party (lol).

This is retarded. If people want a circlejerk, they go to fucking digg

Again this is not teamspeak or IRC where it isn't as intuitive to make your own discord server (4 clicks + textbox for the server itself) where you can post content the original server will not allow, or navigate to different servers if you're interested in discussing specific topics. Even the manuelites by day coomers by night figured this guy out.

This is how you create an echo chamber. People don’t go to politics containment to circlejerk they go to fucking digg

Like can someone give me the hot take on how we supposedly dislike the discussions enough that we have to make this one shitty channel to sorta please people but not enough to just say "please take that to a platform not on the official tg discord"? Just a reminder once more that tg is not the only server on discord, not even for people in the community tg (manuel hut being the most obvious). Please walk me through the why these discussions MUST exist explicitly on the tg server so I can better understand where it's coming from.

Because then people will just leave TG because some people pissed their pants and complained about politics. It’s not like tg isn’t already a sinking fucking ship not helped by dumbass coders

We've seen the issues that arise from satellite communities around /tg/ that become insulated echo chambers and drama hotspots.

A regulated version of the unwanted discourse is always preferable to excising it from the community to totally unregulated areas where the worst hold influence and authority.

Stickymayhem wrote:We've seen the issues that arise from satellite communities around /tg/ that become insulated echo chambers and drama hotspots.

A regulated version of the unwanted discourse is always preferable to excising it from the community to totally unregulated areas where the worst hold influence and authority.

basically ya

>pol-con creates drama, we should move them to their own third party discord they can create

me who remembers the drama around she**a and wi***n associated discords as well as s**gcord before that as well as the one ran by that one guy whos name i don't hint at anymore because everytime i do he pm's me on discord to remind me how he's still following everything i do:

arguing that shitty people existed in the past on orbit servers then arguing it would be better to keep everyone in our server to stop such a thing happening again is stupid.

That being said ive personally flip flopped on it. Keeping it gives us very little bar having a nice place to house the people who dont shut up about it.

Removing it means we dont have to deal with the retards who constantly bring up politics. Although in that case we have to deal with admins ignoring discussions of the politics that they like without even realising they are doing it.

tbh just reading this thread makes me flip flop on it as I read it.

>The last three times we attempted this strategy it failed completely and made things worse!
>Stop bringing up "the past" or "evidence" or "coherent points" it's dumb

Naloac wrote:arguing that shitty people existed in the past on orbit servers then arguing it would be better to keep everyone in our server to stop such a thing happening again is stupid.

That being said ive personally flip flopped on it. Keeping it gives us very little bar having a nice place to house the people who dont shut up about it.

Removing it means we dont have to deal with the retards who constantly bring up politics. Although in that case we have to deal with admins ignoring discussions of the politics that they like without even realising they are doing it.

tbh just reading this thread makes me flip flop on it as I read it.

Its an argument against an argument against keeping polcon, its not an argument for keeping polcon.

Suggesting the removal of polcon to stop drama and defending it with "/tg/ players can just make their own discord to discuss politics in" as has been done in this thread just doesn't track because that has proven to in fact create drama.

Its been close to a year (or feels like it at least) since the last time i gazed upon the headmin channel to see them discussing some latest bit of drama where the explainer starts with "in x's discord"

I'd like to keep it that way, but this is a very minor picture in why i want to keep pol-con, its just funny how quickly people forget if they think moving a drama fest to another discord would reduce that drama rather then amplify it.

Stickymayhem wrote:We've seen the issues that arise from satellite communities around /tg/ that become insulated echo chambers and drama hotspots.

A regulated version of the unwanted discourse is always preferable to excising it from the community to totally unregulated areas where the worst hold influence and authority.

Something frustrating. The political containment board was probably a mistake to begin with. Having a political discussion area is basically opening Pandora's box. The good thing from it is there's some people who just want to power trip from time to time and they can get their rocks off on the people who discuss politics instead of regular people in the community. The bad thing is that certain things should just never exist to begin with, such as a karma system, in many cases certain "rules" and enforcement of said rules, and moth people. In order to try to put the Genie back in the bottle, you need arbitrary rules that make zero sense or else you'll just end up upsetting people which isn't entirely a bad thing when you consider that there are unwritten quotas to be met by impulsive individuals. Here's an example of an arbitrary rule that would influence the political containment board. All messages have to be encase in a spoiler. Think about it.

watching people argue over politics will always be funny

Option 1: Delete politics containment, keep politics ban
Without politics containment, people will still want to discuss news and politics. Do you really want administrators to be forced to scrub any discussion of current events that are vaguely political in nature? If your goal is to reduce drama, do you think the inevitable selective enforcement of a politics ban will be drama-free, when people are forced to discuss current events in the off-topic channels? Or God-forbid, separate Discords? We've seen what drama-hounds will do when you give them an in like this.

Option 2: Delete politics containment, rescind politics ban
I don't think anybody wants this.

Option 3: Keep things as is
If you don't like the politics, you don't have to read the politics channel. If you do like the politics, you have your containment channel. Everyone wins.

what if you delete tgstation discord instead and make everyone use a subreddit instead

Farquaar wrote:Option 1: Delete politics containment, keep politics ban
Without politics containment, people will still want to discuss news and politics. Do you really want administrators to be forced to scrub any discussion of current events that are vaguely political in nature? If your goal is to reduce drama, do you think the inevitable selective enforcement of a politics ban will be drama-free, when people are forced to discuss current events in the off-topic channels? Or God-forbid, separate Discords? We've seen what drama-hounds will do when you give them an in like this.

Option 2: Delete politics containment, rescind politics ban
I don't think anybody wants this.

Option 3: Keep things as is
If you don't like the politics, you don't have to read the politics channel. If you do like the politics, you have your containment channel. Everyone wins.

It’s crazy how if something isn’t broken you shouldn’t try to fix it

Why anyone is taking sticky's comments at face value when he is constantly holding court in politics containment and often incites the biggest riots, beats me.

MrStonedOne wrote:that one guy whos name i don't hint at anymore because everytime i do he pm's me on discord to remind me how he's still following everything i do

ȷ́ḿád́

if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

Do tgmc guys really not get added to the channel automatically? I'm pretty sure terranaut is there so that's a bit weird.

just ban the people who talk about politics, if politics-containment is gone and no politics rule appears then people should just get banned for it, and generally people who go on discord to discuss politics won't be a huge loss to the community

TGMC cucks are here to give their shitty opinions

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

It's much easier to precisely define ERP than to precisely define political discussion.

oranges wrote:Why anyone is taking sticky's comments at face value when he is constantly holding court in politics containment and often incites the biggest riots, beats me.

They aren't riots we're protesting the certification of the headmin election it's perfectly legitimate and exactly what scaredofshadows would have wanted.

Look I realise some TGMCers might have mental defects that lead to ERPing, but normal people usually want to discuss the world while not usually having uncontrollable urges to start asking about whether someone's imaginary character is wearing underwear or not. The two are hardly comparable.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Look I realise some TGMCers might have mental defects that lead to ERPing, but normal people usually want to discuss the world while not usually having uncontrollable urges to start asking about whether someone's imaginary character is wearing underwear or not. The two are hardly comparable.

dont confuse me with a manuel player, please

joooks wrote:

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Look I realise some TGMCers might have mental defects that lead to ERPing, but normal people usually want to discuss the world while not usually having uncontrollable urges to start asking about whether someone's imaginary character is wearing underwear or not. The two are hardly comparable.

dont confuse me with a manuel player, please

Sorry bud but we all know you have to ERP with the tgmc lead to get admin, the secret discord link leaked

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

p good explanation of why the containment necessity meme isn't how it really be

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

Politics affects everyone. ERP is something only a certain amount of people engage with. It's better for them and everyone else if it's kept private. Talking about what's happening in the world shouldn't be banned if it happens to be political.

This whole thing is an effort to stop bad politics shitting up the place or taking root in an echo chamber. But no one can agree on how to define it so it can be done.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:

Swept wrote:Or at least ban admins from viewing it.

I'm pretty sure if it just got left alone to post CP it'd close down the whole discord server for breaching "terms of service".

we had a no admin channel for years so clearly no one cared about that

the longer the channel stays, the larger it will grow
When it finally comes time to excise it, it will be a shitshow, no matter what
do you remember the hut? bring it back

also if you delete it they're all going to move to #food-general, you cannot stop them

iksyp wrote:

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:

Swept wrote:Or at least ban admins from viewing it.

I'm pretty sure if it just got left alone to post CP it'd close down the whole discord server for breaching "terms of service".

we had a no admin channel for years so clearly no one cared about that

You mean the one that had cp posted to it twice that I had to clean up and handle?

so clearly no one cared about that

also: Why is it gone again? Remind me.

Was it maybe because of the 10 messages a second coming from like 5 different people of "@person nigger" mention spam that would have clearly gotten our discord deleted likely with a user purge too (where they blanket ban all users of a discord they think is too full of 'undesirables')? Do you think that had something to do with it?

Clearly somebody cared about that.

i apologize for any offense i may have caused and i was not aware these things had happened

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25785191 - "Political Detox Week – No politics on [Hacker News] for one week (2016)"

dang 3 hours ago [–]

It made things worse and we ended the experiment after a couple days. I don't have links handy right now but may try to dig them up later. It turns out that there's no faster way to politicize everything than to try something that simplistic. Wherever the optimum is for regulating the intense pressures HN is under around this, it's in a much less obvious place.

Here is a fun read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844

A lot of what they say doesn't fully apply to a site thats not hacker news, but still a fun read.

cacogen wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

Politics affects everyone. ERP is something only a certain amount of people engage with. It's better for them and everyone else if it's kept private. Talking about what's happening in the world shouldn't be banned if it happens to be political.

This whole thing is an effort to stop bad politics shitting up the place or taking root in an echo chamber. But no one can agree on how to define it so it can be done.

okay but neither of those things need to be prevented with a channel they can both just be banned with a no politics rule.

part of the problem with outright banning politics is that people tend to disagree on what is political to begin with and it devolves into semantics
ERP is just virtual sex which has no definitional confusion

maybe we should ban people that argue semantics for ages

Qustinnus wrote:maybe we should ban people that argue semantics for ages

>person says something that one admin thinks is political
>admin bans that person
>admin 2 thinks it was not political and that the first admin imposed their own semantic definition of "political discussion" in making that ban
>admin 2 bans admin 1 for semantics and then themselves
>mutual destruction is assured
maybe this is not such a bad idea

only one admin will remain; an enlightened centrist whos only dream is to just, grill.

Qustinnus wrote:

cacogen wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

Politics affects everyone. ERP is something only a certain amount of people engage with. It's better for them and everyone else if it's kept private. Talking about what's happening in the world shouldn't be banned if it happens to be political.

This whole thing is an effort to stop bad politics shitting up the place or taking root in an echo chamber. But no one can agree on how to define it so it can be done.

okay but neither of those things need to be prevented with a channel they can both just be banned with a no politics rule.

Why throw the baby out with the bath water by banning conversation about everything political, even it's just recent events?

The problem is idiots and people acting in bad faith shitting up the place with exclusionary, fringe views they promote through misinformation and emotional manipulation. Why not just ban people who promote harmful views or act in an overly disruptive manner?

The false equivalency between regular political discussion and /pol/ just results in platforms that are trying to facilitate healthy discussion getting taken advantage of. Here we're talking about banning discussion of all things political implicitly to prevent /pol/ taking root and being disruptive.

4chan has been overrun with off-topic political shitposting, the vast majority of which is propaganda promoting alt-right views. It's not a matter of a difference of opinion. It's the site being taken advantage of while the administration does very little to solve it.

But we don't have much of a problem with that here from what I've seen. Servers like Hippie are more welcoming to the dumb and malicious. But if political discussion in its current state is a problem that needs to be addressed, solve it by identifying the problems and punishing the people causing them.

everything is political, the real problem is defining politics like Gamers do, which is "everything I don't like"

Yeah I think it’s too hard to define politics. If we ban it it’ll still crop up and will just lead to unfair reinforcement of anti politics rules. People want to talk about it and nothing in the channel seems nearly as egregious as that which could be found in admin free hut. Also this thread is bad faith and clearly biased lol.

cacogen wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:

cacogen wrote:

Qustinnus wrote:if the problem is that we can't ban it because people would do it somewhere else anyways we should open an erp channel so people dont erp in the other channels.

Politics affects everyone. ERP is something only a certain amount of people engage with. It's better for them and everyone else if it's kept private. Talking about what's happening in the world shouldn't be banned if it happens to be political.

This whole thing is an effort to stop bad politics shitting up the place or taking root in an echo chamber. But no one can agree on how to define it so it can be done.

okay but neither of those things need to be prevented with a channel they can both just be banned with a no politics rule.

Why throw the baby out with the bath water by banning conversation about everything political, even it's just recent events?

The problem is idiots and people acting in bad faith shitting up the place with exclusionary, fringe views they promote through misinformation and emotional manipulation. Why not just ban people who promote harmful views or act in an overly disruptive manner?

The false equivalency between regular political discussion and /pol/ just results in platforms that are trying to facilitate healthy discussion getting taken advantage of. Here we're talking about banning discussion of all things political implicitly to prevent /pol/ taking root and being disruptive.

4chan has been overrun with off-topic political shitposting, the vast majority of which is propaganda promoting alt-right views. It's not a matter of a difference of opinion. It's the site being taken advantage of while the administration does very little to solve it.

But we don't have much of a problem with that here from what I've seen. Servers like Hippie are more welcoming to the dumb and malicious. But if political discussion in its current state is a problem that needs to be addressed, solve it by identifying the problems and punishing the people causing them.

I think Rule 11 has done a lot to reduce the problem of /pol/ infiltrating politics

I haven't read the rules

Remove it for a week, test the waters, and if it doesn't work just add it back in

Just ask them to take it to the containment Discord if it starts getting disruptive or heated and mute them if they don't.