/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

This used to be rule 3 on all servers back when I first took over as webhost (but not game host)

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rules&oldid=193 wrote:3. This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Being an asshole, who ruins other player's roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a 'play-to-win' style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. Be considerate of other players' experience.

This didn't make it thru a rewrite.

Anti-play2win enforcement used to hold back the tide that is this fucking game when unleashed.

Bring it back.

The way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods. Then hijack came out and that become frowned upon because it was already generally frowned upon to make it harder for antags to honestly achieve their objectives.

(I could have just asked the headmins about doing this, but i'm too high to be disrupting their official discord channel with highdeas, so you get to hear an old man yelling at a cloud a policy thread instead)

edit:

(For the record, pandarsenic in this thread has a better grasp on what this rule originally meant then even I did. They were one of the admin trainers at the time I was a candidate.)

edit2:

Let me break this rule down for you.

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

Be considerate of other players’ experience. - finish off strong with a call to action.


It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

Don't do it mso theres way more admins now than ever and I can see this going so wrong

EDIT: This is leaving too much to interpretation as well, it could encompass most of the MRP rules as timber has stated and won't leave much of a difference between Manuel and the other servers except for less death not worth it and we have two communities who like what they like wrong to poke the hornet nest

Capsandi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:40 am I will not protest about this change or read half the thread, but i will keep tiding as usual and throw a temper tantrum in players club if this limits me whatsoever. In this scenario I will take the only rational course of action and spam threads on /v/ to say TG station is RUIN as many have done before me.

It depends what you mean by tiding but a reasonable definition of it is already explicitly against the rules:

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:35 am It depends what you mean by tiding but a reasonable definition of it is already explicitly against the rules:

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

This is like that one time I found out my car's inspection sticker was expired for like half a year before I noticed, wild.

I like this idea. I've always played with this in mind and hope others do the same. There is a difference between pure chaos power gaming and stay in your lane Manuel rules.

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:27 am Don't do it mso theres way more admins now than ever and I can see this going so wrong

EDIT: This is leaving too much to interpretation as well, it could encompass most of the MRP rules as timber has stated and won't leave much of a difference between Manuel and the other servers except for less death not worth it and we have two communities who like what they like wrong to poke the hornet nest

I think leaving rules broad is a good thing, it lets admins take action against bad faith action without needing to worry about a hard line in the sand that prevents them from dealing with something that nearly everyone involved can see is bad.
Prevents line towing cause the line is blurry

Rule specificity is a hard thing to get right.

Giving people a very detailed list of what they can do, and when they can do it, taken to the extreme, becomes playing the game for the player.

However, giving people zero direction in the intentions and goals of the administration towards curating the community and game play experiences, and leaving everything up in the air leads to well meaning players having bad experiences with admins for no reason.

Furthermore, new players seeing in big text "This is a roleplaying game" will hopefully help to lead them to be more conservative about their play for the better, as opposed to being more liberal and treating LRP as NRP.

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 am lb, oil slick no longer play as i recall
korol is blacklisted
cynthia elva
hanna tireman?
and a lot of names i dont remember or care enough to list here

You didn't list Jonathon Gupta but ok,

Rule 3 somethin somethin yada yada deatil rp bad for overall gameplay some of us play for the game and the people not just for the people.

So this is how LRP dies... with thunderous applause.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:08 amThe way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods.

Could you elaborate on exactly what kinds of button presses would be allowed here? Can any random admin just gib or BSA you for playing in a way that they personally feel is "lame"? Can they drop pod in an inquisitorial ERT that hard counters your wizard build by being immune to all of your spells and being able to kill you in seconds?

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:12 pm If people don't like it there's a ton of downstreams they can murderfuck on

Such as? Name one /tg/ downstream that A. speaks English, B. is still LRP, and C. has a double digit popcount.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm You can fuck around and find out, you just wouldn't be able to minmax your gear before doing so.

But preparation is half of the mechanical depth of this game's combat and interactions. If you do not prepare, you die to one syringe from a syringe gun, you get trapped alone for 15+ minutes when the station loses power, you can't save the guy who's dying on the floor in front of you, you can't make a new uniform on the spot for someone whose uniform burned off, and you can't cuff a guy who's being lynched to get the mob to leave his critted body alone. Power (and thus preparation) is a key part of playing to win, but it's also a key part of playing to not lose and in playing to affect the story.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm and had mainly only ever *heard* of these bad things happening at other stations

God forbid we let players demonstrate their ability to learn from past encounters and adapt to them. No, we need to force them to pretend to start back at square one every shift, fuck the people who are interested in and want to get better at the mechanical parts of the game.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm it is play to win to prep before hand, and it is also play to win to build an optimized load out you always pull out when x antag is announced, especially when it involves optimizing for meta knowledge like armor values, hp, force, and such.

So it's wrong to get better at the game? It's wrong to plan out counters to enemy capabilities and to build a meta? We should just charge knowingly into traps that we've fallen for before? We should do the exact same fucking thing over and over again, because we're only allowed to improve by learning how to click faster/more accurately, and not on a strategic level?

You know what sucks more than being ganked by an antag because you didn't rush gear at roundstart? Being ganked by an antag because you didn't have tools that you wanted to get but arbitrarily couldn't because nobody reported X antag type over comms.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm also security's (and to a lesser degree any valid hunting crew) job (at the ooc level) is to give the antag a challenge to winning, that if they can met, will make said win more satisfying. if you have a strat that basically guarantees they lose, always, every time, its play2win and powergaming. You aren't supposed to make them lose, just make them earn their green text. This is what it means to act in good faith towards the game and enjoyment of it. Like, if you are the hos, you are their final boss. The final boss is not suppose to be unbeatable, just really hard, (and in our case with no saves or chance to try again when you fail)

No, that's a balance issue that should be fixed via code, not an admin smite. We should not be forcing security players to "let" antags win. Both sides should be trying their hardest, because that's what makes victory actually feel earned instead of hollow and what makes defeat a learning experience instead of "welp, I guess I die here due to factors outside of my control".

Who the fuck is gonna sign up for a game where their job is to feed someone else's ego?

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm reactive or proactive lane leaving? If the chemist is getting mutagen and going to botany or ass-garden to make some overpowered bullshit, and blue alert only just barely triggered, and there is no antagonistic shit going on, why would that be allowed? technically its already against the rules.

This kind of shit is why cross-departmental interactions and mechanically deep projects are so rarely seen- people like you lose their shit when you grab or invest in something from another department that synergizes or does something cool with something from your own. Only being able to use items from your department is a cyborg limitation, not a human one.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm Hacking into doors is an ic issue on its own (depending somewhat on the door and what you do afterwards). Somebody who wants to hack into doors, has an ic justification for wanting insuls.

As does someone who doesn't want to instantly get owned by a malf or subverted AI revealing itself later into the shift.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm Pre-prepping at round start and waiting for something to use your toys on, is shallow game play

But under your system, you'd still be waiting for something to use your toys on, because you need to wait for something to use your toys on to start making said toys (which I'm sure will work out great for the botanists who need to suddenly pull holy melons out of their asses after someone reports cult halos).

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm , reacting to events and coms traffic and chatter, is more deep, interactive, fun, and makes time-of-execution a meaningful factor that can influence how well an antag does, given that it starts a race between everybody reacting to the antag existing, and prepping for it, and the antag trying to do their thing.

Personally, I don't find starting the 10 minute process of creating a weapon to stop an antag in the 6 seconds I have between said antag c4ing through my wall and me being gunned down by their hand cannon very deep, interactive, or fun, but maybe that's just a me thing. I'd also argue that being unable to adapt to or prepare for an antag's capabilities until they use them makes fighting them a painfully shallow experience that mostly consists of "going through the motions", the very thing you (and I) despise.

Why can't that race start at roundstart? And that dynamic already exists somewhat, seeing as how you don't really have the bag space to fully prepare for all given antag types/attack methods at once. You choose the generalist tools that you think will be relevant (and/or specific tools against things you despise dying to), then adapt your loadout as the round goes on and specific threats get confirmed.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm It makes comms the proper target it should always be, as currently why would any antag try to avoid letting the crew find out whats going on, if half the station is gonna be prepped for you and every other antag at round start anyways.

Because it prevents sec (and validhunters) from being alerted to your location? You might be able to fight anyone on the station individually, but it's hard to fight multiple people at once. And, as mentioned earlier, it lets people tailor their builds specifically to your exact strategy instead of just to commonly seen threats.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm The only person who is supposed to be minmax equipped to handle nukeops at round start, is the clown, via the slips they have access to. This is a feature, not a bug.

what

so blitz ops are just supposed to auto-win even harder than they already do?

even by your bizarro logic of slips being the only thing that can stop nuke ops at round start, a janitor can start the round with a soap heirloom

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm manuel still expects crew members to do their job, the other servers won't

Even though chemists who decide to perform the heinous cross-departmental act of "growing a combat plant" are supposed to be reprimanded? Will botanists also be punished for growing combat plants or holy melons without an antag callout?

I'd honestly draw the comparison more towards Fulp here than towards Manuel.
mount, err, i mean we wouldn't do that at all ever >=})

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm My round was not ruined by not immediately dunking on the antags (as engi borg this would be by trying to flash them and take them to sec) that i found too early in their process for them to have a chance to respond.

Okay, and? Nobody's screeching at you for "throwing" by deciding to RP a response to those cultists, but nobody (on Sybil, Bagil, or Terry) should be screeching at you for NOT immediately dunking on them either. Both playstyles are equally valid, IMO, but nobody should be forced to react one way or the other on LRP.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:16 pm In fact, this ended up being the first round I module swapped to janitor borg, then spent a few rounds after that as janitor borg having fun running around the station and cleaning up messes.

I'm glad you had a good round (and that you didn't get punished for standing still by those cultists stun handing you and then sac'ing you). Janiborgs have since had their ability to clean nerfed into the ground, by the way, but that's mostly irrelevant, as was you sparing the cultists somehow causing you to discover that the janitor model is pretty neat. You would have discovered it on your own regardless or found something else that was neat.

This response post is long, so I'm gonna end it here, because there's an important point I want to make in the next (hopefully short) one.

having the guy permabanned for bug abusing constantly to grand murder post against this idea is basically a +1

Semi-relevant TF2 tangent: I draw the comparison here to SS13, with:

• players who like being able to prepare for threats ahead of time, play around with our unique mechanics, and influence their fate through mechanical knowledge/skill,
• players who despise feeling obliged to gear up at the start of every shift, being killed 15 minutes into the round as an antag because a random assistant had a gun and a hard counter to their antag powers, and really just want the mechanics to serve as a backdrop/prompt for RP, and
• players who don't give a shit either way.

All of the above playstyles are valid, which is why we have the Manuel/LRP split.

My concern is that the addition of this new rule 3 for /tg/'s servers will force out that 1st kind of player, and to my awareness, there's not really anywhere else that runs /tg/station-based code, has a double digit pop, and is LRP for them to go, which I believe is a tragedy. The members of that 1st category aren't vermin to be exterminated, they're just people who legitimately enjoy the game for different reasons than you do and deserve to be accounted for.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:09 pm I support bringing back the essence of old Rule 3:
Playing just to win is a bad faith approach. This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Be considerate of other players' experiences.

And my heart breaks seeing this thread filled with comments like this one, comments that claim that people who are interested in playing the mechanical game instead of (or in addition to) the GMod DarkRP that we've painted over the surface of it are not only playing the game wrong, but are in fact bad faith actors who are a blight upon /tg/station and do not belong in our community.

All I ask is that you make a poll on this decision (ideally a separate one in each server) before you add this rule to EVERY server. Perhaps give it a test run on Sybil OR Bagil, to see how it actually works out in practice and observe whether or not players will immediately shift to the unchanged server en masse due to not actually wanting the new rule or to the changed server due to wanting it.

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:53 am having the guy permabanned for bug abusing constantly to grand murder post against this idea is basically a +1

I could very well just be an unwanted outlier who's disconnected from reality, but I felt an obligation to make this stand in case I'm not alone on this.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:12 pm Right, which makes this the third policy thread attempting to turn LRP into MRP (although this time from the host).
I guess it just seems weird to make the change if 95%+ of the playerbase on those LRP servers, would be vehemently against it.

I don't understand your complaints. Is occasionally typing sentences at other people seriously that big of a burden?

Back in my day the Golden Age of /tg/ (immediately before/during/after BadgerStation, basically) all the chaotic shit still HAPPENED, you could still get in fights over stupid shit, etc. People around it just reacted like actual fuckin' characters with personalities.

Wanting to steal shit for fun, to deny it from someone you've decided is an asshole, or to do something cool or funny with it was (and would be again) perfectly fine.

Captains still had to secure their spare IDs because if they didn't, assistants would hack into their office through the teleporter backroom 2 minutes into the round (back before it was moved into the spare ID safe) and then do shit like hand out universal all-access. Engineers still had to protect their gloves while they finished setting the engine or solars up.

You can still stock a toolbelt with a full set of tools, grab/order extra medkits, etc., you're just expected to do literally something except arm up for when the first antag calls go out on the radio.

And, IMO, a lot of people were more robust back then because you were expected not to have half the armory in your backpack (E-guns fitting in a satchel lmao) as a nonantag Just Because, which meant that when shit hit fan, you had to know how to procure or make equipment relevant to the specific emergency on short notice. These days, when an AI goes delta or whatever, people just kind of fuck around and die next to fire cabinets they didn't take the firesuits out of.

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but perhaps if we implemented this we could fucking nerf reinforced windows back to a reasonable level of durability because you're expected not to break them for no reason.

My concern is that the addition of this new rule 3 for /tg/'s servers will force out that 1st kind of player, and to my awareness, there's not really anywhere else that runs /tg/station-based code, has a double digit pop, and is LRP for them to go, which I believe is a tragedy.

This isn't as convincing an argument as you might hope, as massive changes like these are not uncommonly the grounds for new servers to form. BeeStation was formed because some people were very angry about cloning removal, if I remember right? You know better than anyone the code is open source, and not too tough to host.

All I ask is that you make a poll on this decision (ideally a separate one in each server) before you add this rule to EVERY server

Per-server polling is not possible, but this is a change that I see as being primarily targeted towards the future health of the game, if nothing else. Like I said before, I think the thought of a new player clicking on the rules, and being told that this is first and foremost a roleplay game (which it is) would create for a much healthier overall atmosphere than the one who sees the game as something to be won, especially if they're surrounded by the 1000-hours who grew up in that environment.

ADDENDUM: Note that I'm not advocating for NRP or intolerance of roleplaying here (I'm struggling to even imagine how or why you would bully someone for RPing in SS13)- this is about whether or not people should be allowed to actually use the mechanics available to them to prepare for trouble BEFORE it happens so that they can have a greater influence on their story (and/or do something really cool) when it DOES happen. Optimizing mechanics and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and thinking that they are is an example of the Stormwind Fallacy.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:16 am

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:12 pm Right, which makes this the third policy thread attempting to turn LRP into MRP (although this time from the host).
I guess it just seems weird to make the change if 95%+ of the playerbase on those LRP servers, would be vehemently against it.

I don't understand your complaints. Is occasionally typing sentences at other people seriously that big of a burden?

Back in my day the Golden Age of /tg/ (immediately before/during/after BadgerStation, basically) all the chaotic shit still HAPPENED, you could still get in fights over stupid shit, etc. People around it just reacted like actual fuckin' characters with personalities.

Wanting to steal shit for fun, to deny it from someone you've decided is an asshole, or to do something cool or funny with it was (and would be again) perfectly fine.

Captains still had to secure their spare IDs because if they didn't, assistants would hack into their office through the teleporter backroom 2 minutes into the round (back before it was moved into the spare ID safe) and then do shit like hand out universal all-access. Engineers still had to protect their gloves while they finished setting the engine or solars up.

You can still stock a toolbelt with a full set of tools, grab/order extra medkits, etc., you're just expected to do literally something except arm up for when the first antag calls go out on the radio.

And, IMO, a lot of people were more robust back then because you were expected not to have half the armory in your backpack (E-guns fitting in a satchel lmao) as a nonantag Just Because, which meant that when shit hit fan, you had to know how to procure or make equipment relevant to the specific emergency on short notice. These days, when an AI goes delta or whatever, people just kind of fuck around and die next to fire cabinets they didn't take the firesuits out of.

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but perhaps if we implemented this we could fucking nerf reinforced windows back to a reasonable level of durability because you're expected not to break them for no reason.

Maybe I will be called a boomer but this too is the gameplay I want back. I know it'll never come back entirely, but I think we could atleast capture back some of its better qualities through a return in policy.
I had high hopes that Manuel would be somewhat of a return to form to this after it was created, and in some ways it was, but to be more candid than I'd like, the HRP/anti-chaos/anti-conflict faction seems to have unfortunately won out in the fight for its server direction. This is not unexpected, as having polarized servers does naturally attract extremes to both ends, which is why I'd also like a new unification ruleset for all servers. Even if that does not happen though, this would still be a greatly appreciated good step in the right direction.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:23 am This isn't as convincing an argument as you might hope, as massive changes like these are not uncommonly the grounds for new servers to form. BeeStation was formed because some people were very angry about cloning removal, if I remember right? You know better than anyone the code is open source, and not too tough to host.

Fair, but how many of those reactive downstreams have survived to this day/actually kept up with /tg/ prime's updates? And would it not be better to avoid creating a schism in the first place?

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:23 am Per-server polling is not possible, but this is a change that I see as being primarily targeted towards the future health of the game, if nothing else. Like I said before, I think the thought of a new player clicking on the rules, and being told that this is first and foremost a roleplay game (which it is) would create for a much healthier overall atmosphere than the one who sees the game as something to be won, especially if they're surrounded by the 1000-hours who grew up in that environment.

I'm fine with players being told that they should at least try to RP, but what MSO is implying is that

• there will be a complete gutting of the preparation aspect of this game, which makes up a significant portion of its mechanical depth and the player's ability to feel like they could have done something about their death
• he will give admins permission to smite people who aren't antagging in a cool enough way, in their personal opinion (MSO said that he had left that clause "intentionally vague")
• players will no longer be allowed to learn how to better engage antags based on their past experiences with them (or rather, put what they've learned into practice), and instead must react in the same way every time that, say, a cult is called out (unless someone also calls out "oh yeah they can stun and mute people with their hands and they can brainwash people with runes and...")

, which will make playing on LRP servers a much more miserable experience for people who want to play the mechanical game (in addition to the RP one).

ATHATH wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:52 am I'm fine with players being told that they should at least try to RP, but what MSO is implying is that

• there will be a complete gutting of the preparation aspect of this game, which makes up a significant portion of its mechanical depth and the player's ability to feel like they could have done something about their death
• he will give admins permission to smite people who aren't antagging in a cool enough way, in their personal opinion (MSO said that he had left that clause "intentionally vague")
• players will no longer be allowed to learn how to better engage antags based on their past experiences with them (or rather, put what they've learned into practice), and instead must react in the same way every time that, say, a cult is called out (unless someone also calls out "oh yeah they can stun and mute people with their hands and they can brainwash people with runes and...")

, which will make playing on LRP servers a much more miserable experience for people who want to play the mechanical game (in addition to the RP one).

Historically, this isn't really how it panned out.

People could prep, but you couldn't do it to the point that you were being a shithead to other people in an overt way. Call it a scale from "I sit in my department on Manuel and pray for a swift death" to "I raid the armory and grab the Ion Rifle in case it turns out the AI is malf"

And in between, you have "I start shit with security when they try to confiscate the toolbelt I just stole from Engineering, and maybe I steal a baton and stash it somewhere then turn myself in and pick the baton up after they release me. My baton now."

Botanists can pretty much do whatever they want (holymelons, death nettles, etc.) because Botany has literally no gameplay EXCEPT to make cool plants

If antags are being boring (hunting down 4 unarmed survivors on an otherwise empty station, etc.), admins are free to prompt them to hurry up and call the shuttle lest they spawn ERTs, or make ghosts visible, or spawn 16 apprentices to war over the station's remains like feudal lords, or slap the highlander button, or announce that you're entering an asteroid field and hit the rod or meteor buttons 4-10 times, or make xenomorphs, or-...
What they won't do is spontaneously kill/gib the antag or tie their shoes during a fight.

You still know that funnyhands can one-tap stun you, that revs use flashes to convert people but it can be undone with head trauma or loyalty implants, that traitor goods are traitor goods, etc., but you're also expected not to be a dick about it to shut someone's round down, especially if they might be new or confused by something, before it even starts.

Example wrote:It was not strictly against the rules, but it was highly frowned upon and considered real shitter behavior, to immediate arrest someone or radio call out noslips from someone else who hadn't done anything openly antagonistic, or even to follow them around waiting to, even at the height of the power of slips in combat (long stuns, no crawling, etc.). But if you called out ";x has noslips?" It was generally pretty widely agreed that you were the asshole there and everyone should make fun of you.

Loudly making fun of the fact that someone using them was obvious through say or emote, though, was not just expected and encouraged.

Example wrote:If you come across someone making a cult base in maintenance, you're fully justified in going, "Damn bro you okay? You're bleeding everywhere!" or in booking it at full speed, yelling out ";CULT BASE R&D MAINTENANCE," and arming up.

I hit enter early then fucked up formatting like 6 times after and I want to die

As an aside, you know what I did once, when i found two cultists very soon after round start as a borg?

".b ai, what are we supposed to do if we see a human harming themselves?"

"just ignore it, did somebody commit suicide?"

".b na, they were cutting their fingers and drawing things on the floor. maybe you should call medical and see if they can get them some mental help"

"I don't see any runes, anyways security handles mental health"

";security there are some crew men who might need mental health, they are cutting into their finger and drawing on the floor with their blood. they just ran away from x by x"

My round was not ruined by not immediately dunking on the antags (as engi borg this would be by trying to flash them and take them to sec) that i found too early in their process for them to have a chance to respond. and by drawing the convo out like that (in earshot of them) it gave them time to run but still warned the station in the end what was going on. In fact, this ended up being the first round I module swapped to janitor borg, then spent a few rounds after that as janitor borg having fun running around the station and cleaning up messes.

You mean getting instantly dunked on by cultist, converted/smashed and thrown into a locker, or sent to kill AI? I don't think even the rp rules proposed by you would change anything here in this situation.
I am kinda torn here, because on one hand i dislike the constant arms race that 30% of LRP is doing, but on another hand some of them actually turned into good roleplayers, and are now pretty fun to hang around. Some of people have muscle memory for tiding all the stuff, and then circling maints with response to every antag that can happen tho. Still, i think that curbing the few ultimate powergamers for price of killing lrp is not worth it.

Terry being a perpetual arms race between antags and nonantags is what made it fun
If people hate the culture of the server maybe idk they should bail, we have campbell already they can go populate it

or move three US servers back to east coast so europeans can play there too
if you don’t like terry existing mso, you should just say it. we will understand and start another server without your intervention and everyone will be happy

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:34 am Terry being a perpetual arms race between antags and nonantags is what made it fun
If people hate the culture of the server maybe idk they should bail, we have campbell already they can go populate it

or move three US servers back to east coast so europeans can play there too
if you don’t like terry existing mso, you should just say it. we will understand and start another server without your intervention and everyone will be happy

basically this

there are no other server crag we cant find a lrp server with pop that isnt aids

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:50 am there are no other server crag we cant find a lrp server with pop that isnt aids

WE WANT TO PLAY LRP BUT WE DONT WANT TO PLAY WITH OTHER LRP PLAYERS SO YOU HAVE TO BE FORCED TO ACCOMMODATE US

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:52 am

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:50 am there are no other server crag we cant find a lrp server with pop that isnt aids

WE WANT TO PLAY LRP BUT WE DONT WANT TO PLAY WITH OTHER LRP PLAYERS SO YOU HAVE TO BE FORCED TO ACCOMMODATE US

by aids i mean ping
i cant enjoy lrp high octane gameplay with 250 ping

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:37 am *snip*
You have all that free time to code dive and test exploits so you can ruin everyone elses game and you can't look up other servers to play on?

So you don't want to respond to this in any way other than an ad hominem, great argument my friend, keep it up!

Sparkezel wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:01 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:37 am *snip*
You have all that free time to code dive and test exploits so you can ruin everyone elses game and you can't look up other servers to play on?

So you don't want to respond to this in any way other than an ad hominem, great argument my friend, keep it up!

its classic crag, he always does this

It makes comms the proper target it should always be, as currently why would any antag try to avoid letting the crew find out whats going on, if half the station is gonna be prepped for you and every other antag at round start anyways.

As a thought, wouldn't comms inexplicably going out (no anomalies) be appropriate cause to be ready to defend yourself? Just not to the extent of stealing every high level loot in the game as a precaution?

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:56 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:52 am

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:50 am there are no other server crag we cant find a lrp server with pop that isnt aids

WE WANT TO PLAY LRP BUT WE DONT WANT TO PLAY WITH OTHER LRP PLAYERS SO YOU HAVE TO BE FORCED TO ACCOMMODATE US

by aids i mean ping
i cant enjoy lrp high octane gameplay with 250 ping

If theres a lot of you guys you could get a server closer to you.

Sparkezel wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:01 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:37 am *snip*
You have all that free time to code dive and test exploits so you can ruin everyone elses game and you can't look up other servers to play on?

So you don't want to respond to this in any way other than an ad hominem, great argument my friend, keep it up!

Cry about it pussy tits. for guys who say you love the challenge and intensity of ss13 you seem to fucking shit yourselves and demand people stop bullying you when your opponents have an opportunity to fight back.

Stupid fucking retard. Guys argument is UHHH I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO LOOK FOR A NEW SERVER SO DONT DO ANYTHING I DONT LIKE. Fucking moron.

Guy: maybe we should put our turds into a toilet so that people dont get shit thrown at them all day.

Shit throwing chimp who goes out of his way to look for turds so he can throw shit at everyone: BUT THEN HOW WILL I THROW SHIT AT PEOPLE?

Guy: you could throw shit somewhere else but we dont want it here

SHITCHIMP: WHERE THO?! IM BEING OPPRESSED THIS IS JUST LIKE WHEN THEY EXPELLED THE JEWS IM LITERALLY BEING HOLOCAUSTED AAAH

Guy: whatever shitchimp

Shitchimp: AHHHH AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM I WINNNNN

Piss up a flagpole and see if you get wet you parasite.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:20 pm Cry about it pussy tits. for guys who say you love the challenge and intensity of ss13 you seem to fucking shit yourselves and demand people stop bullying you when your opponents have an opportunity to fight back.

It's a free for all, say whatever you want about me, however I didn't see any people who were good at the game and were bitching at anything other than shitcode IDED prs or stupid policy threads. If you call that a method of fighting back, well I wish you the best.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:25 am

It makes comms the proper target it should always be, as currently why would any antag try to avoid letting the crew find out whats going on, if half the station is gonna be prepped for you and every other antag at round start anyways.

As a thought, wouldn't comms inexplicably going out (no anomalies) be appropriate cause to be ready to defend yourself? Just not to the extent of stealing every high level loot in the game as a precaution?

Sometimes an ionosphere goes out and the AI either decides not to mention it, forgets to mention it, or you weren't paying attention when it happened. It usually results in me turning to the nearest person and saying "Comms down" "Yeah, ionosphere" "oh"

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:22 am rent free seething

We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

It's extremely telling that you opppose these measures under the premise that it ruins the fun of you and others. But you've never looked or acted like you have fun here. Protecting what deeply unhappy spiteful people perceive as "their fun" is a fools game. You will never be happy, the enjoyment you get out of this game IS misfortune you subject others to.

You have never, for a moment, appeared to enjoy being part of this community. Yet you fight for the current state of things. Either the new way is another opportunity for you to find something fulfilling here, or you were totally unsatisfiable and weren't worth catering to in the first place.

Related: Didn't you dramatically storm out of /tg/station never return a couple months ago? Before this change was even suggested you were unhappy with the status quo enough to make a big deal out of leaving. But you keep coming back. Is the game fun or not? Is the status quo terrible or not?

The vibe of this post applies to a lot of people complaining about this potential change.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm But you've never looked or acted like you have fun here.

"Despite what you claim, I know that you're ACTUALLY not having fun, so I don't have to respect you" -Sticky 2022

I don't really understand the need of this to lrp servers as tg already has manuel and campbell.

ATHATH wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:16 pm

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm But you've never looked or acted like you have fun here.

"Despite what you claim, I know that you're ACTUALLY not having fun, so I don't have to respect you" -Sticky 2022

It isn’t that much of a stretch to make. Flatulence straight up said that the only reason he has fun here is because he’s allowed to powergame and grief. Limit his ability to do both of those things and he won’t have fun. Clearly he doesn’t represent the bulk of players.

People, no need to worry so much. We had this rule for years, this is just a return to form.
The only concern I see is that we do have a lot admins now and some too overzealous ones... But we also used to have plenty of freewheeling tyrant admins, so it'll probably balance out.

Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:57 pm People, no need to worry so much. We had this rule for years, this is just a return to form.
The only concern I see is that we do have a lot admins now and some too overzealous ones... But we also used to have plenty of freewheeling tyrant admins, so it'll probably balance out.

True

A few playerclub peanut threads should balance the admin team out and create a sort of unity in how the players want the rules to look.

traysoul wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:21 pm I don't really understand the need of this to lrp servers as tg already has manuel and campbell.

We're removing LRP and LRP enjoyers from the community.

my only concern about such a rule is the inconsistency of admins enforcing it. players shouldnt have to hit adminwho to see what will be acceptable for that round.

Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:57 pm People, no need to worry so much. We had this rule for years, this is just a return to form.
The only concern I see is that we do have a lot admins now and some too overzealous ones... But we also used to have plenty of freewheeling tyrant admins, so it'll probably balance out.

I'd say there is plenty to worry about, this rule didn't exist here for 2-3 years. If I had to compare it it would be like ludites wanting to cut off power and illegalise automation because, hey guys, its just a return to form! :DDD
I don't think that we should just feign ignorance on admin part either, overzelous admins can and will break the game in my opionion.

Sparkezel wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:29 pm

Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:57 pm People, no need to worry so much. We had this rule for years, this is just a return to form.
The only concern I see is that we do have a lot admins now and some too overzealous ones... But we also used to have plenty of freewheeling tyrant admins, so it'll probably balance out.

I'd say there is plenty to worry about, this rule didn't exist here for 2-3 years. If I had to compare it it would be like ludites wanting to cut off power and illegalise automation because, hey guys, its just a return to form! :DDD
I don't think that we should just feign ignorance on admin part either, overzelous admins can and will break the game in my opionion.

That’s what ban appeals are for, and admin complaints.

I’m not convinced this will even be as massive of a change as people seem to think. I’m probably still rule 0/1 pilled but generally I see this being used to ban assholes who are only interested in their own fun. I see it less as a “you must rp” rule and more of a “be a good sport and considerate of the fun of others within reason.”

You already see a good amount of players (try to) engage in this, but typically the absolute worst offenders force them into a box of purely mechanical play. I’m talking the asher kaurs, the icanhearcolors. These players weren’t the devil incarnate, however their playstyles were recognized as unhealthy for the server and were removed.

It genuinely baffles me how people can portray this as the “death” of our “lrp” servers because all I see is bad faith actors being dealt with sooner rather than later. People who enjoy chaos and fast-paced gameplay aren’t going to be banned, assholes who stomp on the fun of others and don’t care to put in a modicum of effort will be. Seems much less controversial than some would have you think.

I wouldn't mind this rule addition if it was less restrictive on the LRP servers.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:54 pm I’m not convinced this will even be as massive of a change as people seem to think. I’m probably still rule 0/1 pilled but generally I see this being used to ban assholes who are only interested in their own fun. I see it less as a “you must rp” rule and more of a “be a good sport and considerate of the fun of others within reason.”

You already see a good amount of players (try to) engage in this, but typically the absolute worst offenders force them into a box of purely mechanical play. I’m talking the asher kaurs, the icanhearcolors. These players weren’t the devil incarnate, however their playstyles were recognized as unhealthy for the server and were removed.

It genuinely baffles me how people can portray this as the “death” of our “lrp” servers because all I see is bad faith actors being dealt with sooner rather than later. People who enjoy chaos and fast-paced gameplay aren’t going to be banned, assholes who stomp on the fun of others and don’t care to put in a modicum of effort will be. Seems much less controversial than some would have you think.

It all depends on execution of it and I have very low expectations

I get where you’re coming from, but personally I trust admins to execute this much better than they did rule 11, which imo ended up in a fine enough place, even if the path there wasn’t smooth. I think there will be less of a range in opinions for this rule on the team than 11, which means we’re starting off closer to the same page. No doubt it will be used very conservatively at first and with time the acceptable use-case will broaden, however the path to precedent (hehe) will be open to both players and admins the whole way, with MSO stepping in as he likely sees fit. Rollout won’t be perfect but I don’t think it will be a disaster.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I'm split over this one.
Being able to take action against people who play in ways solely to ruin others' experiences is further strengthening the existence of rule 1, and that's a good thing. People shouldn't be forced to tolerate an asshole for that one singular person's fun.
SS13 might be a game with an "unequal distribution of fun", but I hope to ensure that everyone can have at least some of it - assholes who go around playing-to-win and powergaming at the expense of other peoples' experience directly obstruct my goal.

In addition, "roleplay" isn't particularly hard to do, at least in my opinion - if I, exclusive sybil player and lrp shitter who adores "antag freedom", managed to survive on skyrat without getting bwoinked I'm sure other people can manage to type out at least one sentence a round in the form of interaction with other people.
Talking to people is something that constantly changes - no code updates or PRs or anything is needed to make a conversation new every time with people. Interaction will always be a decent source of interest and enjoyment, as long as all parties can manage to be decent human beings about it.

Intentional vagueness, however, is both a blessing and a curse (and the other side of the split, for me) as what consists of "ruining another player's RP experience" is something that I guarantee can and will be hotly debated over - and opinions on "playing to win" is something that is ALREADY hotly debated over, with individuals I've seen fearing that grabbing a crowbar at the start of the round is "playing to win". Granted, I'd suggest that some look at the wording, which is about playing to win *and* ruining another player's RP experience - I don't think that grabbing a crowbar ruins anyone else's round aside from the obvious crowbar scarcity increasing, but honestly this could be argued against as well. Vague wordings are joy.

The admin team obviously is full of individual people and not a hive mind, and so we all disagree with each other on some issues. The deployment of this rule and how these issues and beliefs clash are what I fear the most.
I hope that if/when this rule is implemented everyone manages to keep a stable head to help people enjoy the game more, and don't swing too far one way or another.


I'm kinda for it but I'm gonna be real sad if this shuts down the antag freedom that I love so much - I don't even play antagonist anymore but I will 100% argue that antagonist freedom is one of the biggest drivers of sybil shifts and stories. Please do not remove our story's driver.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:54 pm I’m not convinced this will even be as massive of a change as people seem to think. I’m probably still rule 0/1 pilled but generally I see this being used to ban assholes who are only interested in their own fun. I see it less as a “you must rp” rule and more of a “be a good sport and considerate of the fun of others within reason.”

You already see a good amount of players (try to) engage in this, but typically the absolute worst offenders force them into a box of purely mechanical play. I’m talking the asher kaurs, the icanhearcolors. These players weren’t the devil incarnate, however their playstyles were recognized as unhealthy for the server and were removed.

It genuinely baffles me how people can portray this as the “death” of our “lrp” servers because all I see is bad faith actors being dealt with sooner rather than later. People who enjoy chaos and fast-paced gameplay aren’t going to be banned, assholes who stomp on the fun of others and don’t care to put in a modicum of effort will be. Seems much less controversial than some would have you think.

While LRP has roleplay, it doesn't have a culture of roleplay. It actually has a very loud vocal minority culture of anti-RP and rejecting RP, poking fun at people who try to RP.

The rule 3 as written in MSO's OP puts an emphasis on the game being about roleplay and not about winning, especially when your winning comes at the cost of other player's roleplay. The old rules page itself states clearly in the top in a tl;dr: "There’s a lot here, but the gist of the rules is roleplay takes priority."

Our current rules have completely abandoned this idea. Nothing about roleplay except banning ERP and a little blurb about Lavaland roles being guided by roleplay rather than a system of "valid" or "not valid".

Old Rule 3 is in my opinion not compatible with that. The spirit of Old Rule 3 isn't really compatible with that either. The entire Old Ruleset embodies a totally different approach to tg focused around roleplaying.

Since then it appears we've steadily moved away from roleplay on the LRP servers to the point where Manuel was introduced to address the dive to NRP and has drawn away many people interested in the RP side.

This WOULD be a radical culture shift back towards putting RP at the forefront of the game.

Not that our RP rules are any good. We have shit like a core RP rule encouraging you to ignore your objectives alongside a policy RP rule that calls you a murderboner if you kill a single player outside of accomplishing your objectives. They can always be improved. Just need a headmin team who can draft them better. Hell, judging by history we'll just remove all the RP parts from the redraft and end up with a home for the like NRP crew again!

I think people who are looking for a more fast-paced, chaotic and deadly adventure would appreciate the current LRP servers but with a focus on roleplay taking priority. People who want a slower-paced experience can be drawn to the MRP servers, knowing that the LRP servers can offer a bigger dopamine hit if they're so interested.

And people who aren't looking for that... Well, once upon a time tg focused on roleplay and over time the tides came in, displacing the roleplayers elsewhere. Perhaps it's time for the tide to recede once again, giving NRPers the same treatment that RPers once had to deal with.

Boot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:59 pm

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I dont care if you're happy appealling to your demographic has negative consequences for the server

Nothing stays the same and if it no longer appeals to you find another server or video game. This isn't oxygen, it's a video game

If we're catastrophically incorrect in some unforeseeable way it'll change and you'll crawl back whether we want you to or not

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm snip

I don't tend to agree with timber on anything but this is a good way of looking at it

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:30 pm

Boot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:59 pm

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I dont care if you're happy appealling to your demographic has negative consequences for the server

Nothing stays the same and if it no longer appeals to you find another server or video game. This isn't oxygen, it's a video game

If we're catastrophically incorrect in some unforeseeable way it'll change and you'll crawl back whether we want you to or not

There are ton of servers that offer what this change offers. You wanna talk about whats bad for the server? What happens if this causes the peasants you turn your nose to go off and find/make that server your betting they wont? How many of those "catastrophically incorrect" decisions are you gonna make before one of them causes players not to come back? Why throw away what makes TG station different from the others in hopes of chasing your own demographics?

Boot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:04 pm

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:30 pm

Boot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:59 pm

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I dont care if you're happy appealling to your demographic has negative consequences for the server

Nothing stays the same and if it no longer appeals to you find another server or video game. This isn't oxygen, it's a video game

If we're catastrophically incorrect in some unforeseeable way it'll change and you'll crawl back whether we want you to or not

There are ton of servers that offer what this change offers. You wanna talk about whats bad for the server? What happens if this causes the peasants you turn your nose to go off and find/make that server your betting they wont? How many of those "catastrophically incorrect" decisions are you gonna make before one of them causes players not to come back? Why throw away what makes TG station different from the others in hopes of chasing your own demographics?

I reckon people who want to play a fun game in a friendly community that tries to preserve fun for more people and doesn't scream the n-word every five minutes might be more common than autistic manchildren who screech that not being allowed to say 'gas the jews' is oppression and that the only value in this game is maximizing the pain other people feel at your hand.