/tg/Station 13

I feel like this policy only causes headaches and shitty situations. Assuming drones are just doing drone things why should people get to fuck with them especially considering they have zero recourse

tfw you agree with sawrge

feem wrote:tfw you agree with sawrge

im right more often than im not

And a related question is what can a drone do when another drone is being absolutely shitty

Serious answer: Drones are cheap, if someone can make one drone shell then they probably will make more

bandit wrote:Serious answer: Drones are cheap, if someone can make one drone shell then they probably will make more

Getting messed with/blown by a player that knows they have a 99% chance of getting away with it and having no means to retaliate is not fun
Even if they're targeting a drone, there's still malice behind their actions. Why is it okay to act purely maliciously against a role intended to be beneficial to the station without any cause?

Okay so I'm going to assume this quote from the rules is relevant to drones as well:

"Your life is cheap though, and escalation rules are greatly relaxed both for you and any crewmembers interacting with you."

So it basically means, no, you may not blow all the drones FNR but if one starts acting shitty then you can blow it. The problem is, some people don't have a good definition of shitty. As a general rule, if a drone is being bad and either negatively interpretting its laws or doing stuff bound to irritate someone, I adminhelp immediately because admins are fairly harsh on poor drone behavior, so that should resolve the situation. In the meantime, I usually just blow that drone. Blowing all the drones isn't very good behavior unless you notice multiple drones being a dick, that might mean one player is respawning (you should ahelp this) or that they're all being bad.

Lazengann wrote:And a related question is what can a drone do when another drone is being absolutely shitty

ahelp I imagine. Maybe fix what it's breaking.

Anything more would probably go beyond the boundaries of acceptable drone behavior.

I don't really know what to think about how valid drones are. I see the argument for drone lives being cheap because they are basically just ghost roles for bored players to use and it simplifies things if a player can just kill a drone if it slightly annoys them. However I would prefer there to be a reason over killing a drone just because you can.

I must be going crazy I could have sworn I posted in the past that someone who just goes out their way to intentionally mess with someone; regardless of role, can be warranted for action. I could have sworn I used drones as an example for this, as if someone just intentionally round after round kills drones because, "I don't like drones." They are going to at least get talked to, noted, and even banned for Rule 1 if the behavior is warranted enough and doesn't cease.

I know I had to made a post and the only thing I could think of is it might been IRC or the thread was deleted.

because if they aren't I'll remove them from the codebase, because without any policy restrictions they're just better borgs

BeeSting12 wrote:"Your life is cheap though, and escalation rules are greatly relaxed both for you and any crewmembers interacting with you."

The problem with that is that most drone escalation results in mass blowing of all drones there are, and all drones that spawn afterwards, and then destroying drone fabricator.

Sligneris wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:"Your life is cheap though, and escalation rules are greatly relaxed both for you and any crewmembers interacting with you."

The problem with that is that most drone escalation results in mass blowing of all drones there are, and all drones that spawn afterwards, and then destroying drone fabricator.

because a drone you kill will just come back in another drone shell

Because it's a ghost role that amounts to "I want to play even though I already fucked up!"

Just don't play drone.

They are valid if they do anything bad or annoying at all, even as simple as picking up someones hat. All of them are valid collectively if some number of drones are being annoying because you can't sort them from each other.

I PM/note/ban people if they kill drones FNR out of the blue though. An example is a virologist who yesterday went into the RDs office and detonated the derelict drones at random (it probably shouldn't work cross z level)

Remove drones.

For real though, if you want to use them as 'fix the station' then make that their laws explicitly. If you want to enable them to do autism projects even though they can't interact with the crew, why don't you just do it on a private server?

lumipharon wrote:Remove drones.

For real though, if you want to use them as 'fix the station' then make that their laws explicitly. If you want to enable them to do autism projects even though they can't interact with the crew, why don't you just do it on a private server?

Nothing in this post is responsive at all to the topic.


The reason drones were made conditionally valid was
1) To discourage drones from doing shitty things like running off with shit from engineering/RND when there are people there
2) Because this seems to be the go-to appeasement point for literally everything that somebody whines about. If it upsets somebody enough to bitching about adding it, just make the new thing valid.

Then let me expand. To simply repair shit, at best they need to steal metal and glass, maybe the odd circuitboard or extra wire, and parts if they replace machines but that's largely it. And anything they do take, you know it's explicitly to bring the station back up to running order.

When drones do autism shit, or honestly just most drones in general, they're looting shit out of R&D, taking materials, etc etc.
I say remove drones because you can't tell them to stop, and short of blowing them with the console (which requires the right access) they're next to impossible to kill because they're small targets and so hard as fuck to shoot, and as soon as you start they'll just run off and come back later. Atleast if a crew member is being a shitter you can dunk them and be done with it. With drones, even if you do kill the little shit, they can just keep jumping into new bodies for the entire round if they're persistent.

Tl;dr Drones should be valid because they're thieving little shits that steal anything not bolted down (sometimes shit that is also) and are a massive pain in the ass to deal with because small target and usually infinite respawns.

Drones are valid because they are cheap and expendable
Drones have a lot of mobility and can escape from pretty much any situation short of EMPs and being blown from the robotics console
Drones are hilariously good at their job (also overpowered code-wise) and the only thing that keeps them in check is their frailty and rule restrictions

And due to their validity people can call a drone genocide when they get tired of the drones stealing everything to improve the station.
They're like the non-antag version of swarmers except that they build instead of deconstruct.

"Drone swiped my hat from my desk." should be a valid reason.
"I wanted the drone's tools." should be a valid reason.
"I told the drone to fuck off and it didn't." should be a valid reason.
"Fuk dron lmao" shouldn't be valid.

RandomMarine wrote:"Drone swiped my hat from my desk." should be a valid reason.
"I wanted the drone's tools." should be a valid reason.
"I told the drone to fuck off and it didn't." should be a valid reason.
"Fuk dron lmao" shouldn't be valid.

Basically yeah

If drones weren't inherently valid, people would use them to banbait.

cedarbridge wrote:

RandomMarine wrote:"Drone swiped my hat from my desk." should be a valid reason.
"I wanted the drone's tools." should be a valid reason.
"I told the drone to fuck off and it didn't." should be a valid reason.
"Fuk dron lmao" shouldn't be valid.

Basically yeah

There is a fine line however, it is very easy for someone who wants to troll drones to just use any of the valid excuses to troll, so I can see why some people wouldnt want drones to be blanket valid and be treated as any other ghost role in terms of relaxed escalation.

I am ok with blanket valid status, but I still adminhelp if I am getting repeatedly popped or assaulted as a drone for reasons that are not told to me.

Tell the drone to fuck off before blowing them up, it is a courtesy, they dont get radio by default.

just avoid getting near people. being valid should encourage this.

The Clowns Pocket wrote:just avoid getting near people. being valid should encourage this.

doesn't help when people can just blow you remotely for no other reason than "it's valid, because I can kill it that means I must"

if a drone's being a legit fuckhead blow it up or kill it
if it does it again or if it's egregious do it again or ahelp it
if you're a drone and someone's being a legit fuckhead to you run away
if they do it again or you died and there isn't really a reason for that to have happened ahelp it

don't blow up or kill drones for no reason
don't use drones to bait people into killing you, don't fucking interact with people at all if you can help it

why is this hard

feem wrote:if a drone's being a legit fuckhead blow it up or kill it
if it does it again or if it's egregious do it again or ahelp it
if you're a drone and someone's being a legit fuckhead to you run away
if they do it again or you died and there isn't really a reason for that to have happened ahelp it

don't blow up or kill drones for no reason
don't use drones to bait people into killing you, don't fucking interact with people at all if you can help it

why is this hard

many people think drones are always valid at any time for any reason
many people don't agree on what situations fall under drone laws
many admins don't agree on what situations fall under drone laws
many people just don't understand the meaning of drone laws
oftentimes (and often it's a stretch, but people will argue it), the first and third drone laws seem to be at odds

if you kill a drone just because you see a drone and make a habit of doing this then you are taking actions to actively deprive other players of their shit and it probably isn't limited to drones and that ends up being a behavior issue
if you kill a drone because you're mad and have no other reason then who the fuck cares, it only becomes a real problem if you do this shit all the time and if it's indicative of you being a fuckhead who likes to violate the spirit of rule 1

if you fuck with an individual, you have violated the laws
if you accidentally fuck with an individual, you still violated the laws but oops! who cares
if you fuck with a round-critical object, you have violated the laws
if you accidentally fuck with a round-critical object, you still violated the laws but oh well i guess be more careful next time

if you don't know if something's round critical or not ahelp about it
learn to read and comprehend the english language and if you don't understand something ahelp about it
if two admins are giving you different responses in different situations ask them about it and if they don't have a reasonable explanation relevant to a nuance of the specific situation file an admin complaint to get more information

USE THE BRAIN IN YOUR NOGGIN TO FIGURE OUT IF THE SHIT APPLIES
DON'T JUST BE A REACTIONARY TOOLBOX
TALK TO ADMINS IF YOU'RE UNCERTAIN
APPLY A MINIMUM AMOUNT OF EFFORT NOT TO BE A FUCKHEAD

this is what i mean by 'why is this hard'

numerous examples have been made in this thread of many different situations; the core principle is: don't be a dick, don't misuse drones as player character replacements, ask if you're confused about a certain situation in-game, file a complaint or appeal if you're unhappy with how something turned out

lots of players do not read the forums, do not actively follow policy changes/amendments/anything that isn't explicitly in the rules, lots of players don't even read the normal rules beyond like the original list, lots of players are straight up retarded children, lots of players do not understand the use of the ahelp function outside of trying to get someone else banned, lots of players just want to be a dick and murder things, lots of players are spiteful and mean and want to get other players banned for petty reasons and make big fits about drones making even minor violations to their laws

to top it all off, occasionally admins will give conflicting information and frequently won't believe players when they say they're just acting on what another admin told them

i'm not saying it's not hard, i'm saying people lack common sense or are malicious or get caught up in things and dont think straight and the nature of drones existence and the nature of drones lawset leads to especially headache-inducing situations when tied with these conditions

Screemonster wrote:"it's valid, because I can kill it that means I must"

I hate this attitude because sometimes I meme around as a genetics monkeyed person and half the crew gets hardons at being allowed to click on a sprite until it turns sideways. Sometimes though it's great because the other half of the crew will support defending Harambe and you get a big autistic dust-up over the rights of a pixelated space monkey. Gotta take the bad with the good I guess.

cmspano wrote:

Screemonster wrote:"it's valid, because I can kill it that means I must"

I hate this attitude because sometimes I meme around as a genetics monkeyed person and half the crew gets hardons at being allowed to click on a sprite until it turns sideways. Sometimes though it's great because the other half of the crew will support defending Harambe and you get a big autistic dust-up over the rights of a pixelated space monkey. Gotta take the bad with the good I guess.

this is probably the thing that I think is the worst about the game

it's not as if everyone is like this at all times, and validhunting has become a buzzword on the same level of rp, but it's the reason that admin policy of "don't fucking kill admin spawned shit for literally no reason" had to come into being - when admins would try to do some dumb gimmick there would always be that one guy who wordlessly clicks on it until it turns 90 degrees and it was killing (at least mine, can't speak for anyone else) admin willingness to do events that weren't just clicking on buttons

Validhunting in the sense of anyone trying to stomp an antag is fine, that's what separates us from higher RP servers. You start limiting that and you get servers who won't allow the chef to stab a traitor because there's no "RP reason" for him to know how to kill someone with a knife in game, and other stupid shit like that.

Validhunting in the sense of "I have to kill every sentient mob that won't get me banned" is shitty and acting like an asshole.

Qbopper wrote:

cmspano wrote:

Screemonster wrote:"it's valid, because I can kill it that means I must"

I hate this attitude because sometimes I meme around as a genetics monkeyed person and half the crew gets hardons at being allowed to click on a sprite until it turns sideways. Sometimes though it's great because the other half of the crew will support defending Harambe and you get a big autistic dust-up over the rights of a pixelated space monkey. Gotta take the bad with the good I guess.

this is probably the thing that I think is the worst about the game

it's not as if everyone is like this at all times, and validhunting has become a buzzword on the same level of rp, but it's the reason that admin policy of "don't fucking kill admin spawned shit for literally no reason" had to come into being - when admins would try to do some dumb gimmick there would always be that one guy who wordlessly clicks on it until it turns 90 degrees and it was killing (at least mine, can't speak for anyone else) admin willingness to do events that weren't just clicking on buttons

Literally every trader shuttle I've ever made had to be armed with a pulse weapon and hidden ablative vest and be staffed by a ghost I know to be fairly robust or instantly get robbed by a crowd of screaming retards after loot. Whatever the hell it was and whether they needed it or not.

The straw that broke the camel's back with the "valid because valid lel" thing was the time an admin spawned a shuttle full of naked people and set them loose and we got to talk to a warden about why he was gulaging one of them. "Because an admin event spawned them."

#removeplayers

they weren't naked, they were wearing permanent horse masks and jabronie suits

cedarbridge wrote: "Because an admin event spawned them."

That sounds like a week secban for OOC in IC, and acting like an asshole.

cmspano wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: "Because an admin event spawned them."

That sounds like a week secban for OOC in IC, and acting like an asshole.

More for the latter than the former. OOC in IC doesn't really apply 1) in an ahelp convo 2) using metaknowledge of events that players are allowed to have.

But yeah, the ruling came down to clarify that being an asshole to shit on admin events is going to get the hammer dropped on you.

cedarbridge wrote:

cmspano wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: "Because an admin event spawned them."

That sounds like a week secban for OOC in IC, and acting like an asshole.

More for the latter than the former. OOC in IC doesn't really apply 1) in an ahelp convo 2) using metaknowledge of events that players are allowed to have.

But yeah, the ruling came down to clarify that being an asshole to shit on admin events is going to get the hammer dropped on you.

not all adminspawns are antags
therefore merely being an adminspawn is not acting like an antag
therefore someone merely being an adminspawn cannot be treated like an antag

Screemonster wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

cmspano wrote:

cedarbridge wrote: "Because an admin event spawned them."

That sounds like a week secban for OOC in IC, and acting like an asshole.

More for the latter than the former. OOC in IC doesn't really apply 1) in an ahelp convo 2) using metaknowledge of events that players are allowed to have.

But yeah, the ruling came down to clarify that being an asshole to shit on admin events is going to get the hammer dropped on you.

not all adminspawns are antags
therefore merely being an adminspawn is not acting like an antag
therefore someone merely being an adminspawn cannot be treated like an antag

Nothing you said responds to anything in the post you quoted.

If a drone has metal, and I need metal I bash the drone. If I have no backpack, and no access to get another. I bash a drone for its dufflebag. If a drone is wearing any armor type headgear, or a rare hat. I bash the drone. If a drone is fixing my sabotage I bash the drone. If a drone is fixing my edits *doors, walls, what have you.* I bash the drone. If the drone is meandering in my area using stuff im trying to use. I bash the drone. If a drone is anywhere near combat I bash the drone. If a drone opens the door to my department. I will bash the drone.

If the drone walks by in haste. I do not bash the drone. If the drone is fixing someone elses sabotage I do not bash the drone.

If drones exist more can be made, or ordered. Drones lives are cheap. They are caches of resources. In any situation in real life I would be able to request, or take the materiel from a drone with out bashing it. Drones should use the vents, and be strictly out of sight as much of the time as possible. The only location metal is free to the populace is in the tool storage area it spawns in. Since drones use our resources that means likely the drone stole supplies from a different department. Which in turn fuels my need for its resources. As an alive player who didn't die or observe. My stake in the round is greater than yours. My life is more important than your mass produced one.

If you kill drones because they exist you are an asshole.

im almost sure i've told people off for it

I have no idea why this thread was bumped.

I have no idea why drones still exist.

What if someone wants their tools?

since you decided to bump the thread well after it was over i'm gonna go ahead and annotate your posting with bwoinks where appropriate

PathOfChaos1 wrote:If a drone has metal, and I need metal I bash the drone.

*bwoink*

If I have no backpack, and no access to get another. I bash a drone for its dufflebag.

*bwoink*

If a drone is wearing any armor type headgear, or a rare hat. I bash the drone.

*bwoink*

If a drone is fixing my sabotage I bash the drone. If a drone is fixing my edits *doors, walls, what have you.* I bash the drone. If the drone is meandering in my area using stuff im trying to use. I bash the drone. If a drone is anywhere near combat I bash the drone.

these are fine so long as the drone is _breaking its laws or getting damn close to doing so when you do it_

If a drone opens the door to my department. I will bash the drone.

*bwoink*

If the drone walks by in haste. I do not bash the drone. If the drone is fixing someone elses sabotage I do not bash the drone.

i mean cool nobody's asking you to bash anyone

If drones exist more can be made, or ordered. Drones lives are cheap. They are caches of resources. In any situation in real life I would be able to request, or take the materiel from a drone with out bashing it. Drones should use the vents, and be strictly out of sight as much of the time as possible. The only location metal is free to the populace is in the tool storage area it spawns in. Since drones use our resources that means likely the drone stole supplies from a different department. Which in turn fuels my need for its resources. As an alive player who didn't die or observe. My stake in the round is greater than yours. My life is more important than your mass produced one.

i get what you're saying but that really doesn't supersede rule 1

If you kill drones because they exist you are an asshole.

and this is the crux of it, that you outlined several instances in which you're doing exactly that

jesus guys don't be fucking dicks

to avoid the department access issue, why not make drones just slip through under the airlock

I know it defeats the purpose of having an airtight airlock but the game is far from realistic anyways. besides, just pretend they have a tiny little cat flap on 'em specifically for drones.

or maybe just leave it as is and remind them they can ventcrawl w/e

feem wrote:jesus guys don't be fucking dicks

Limey wrote:or maybe just leave it as is and remind them they can ventcrawl w/e

hell why not just remove their ability to open doors and force them to ventcrawl or something if it's that big a deal

cedarbridge wrote:I have no idea why this thread was bumped.

feem wrote:

PathOfChaos1 wrote:If a drone has metal, and I need metal I bash the drone.

*bwoink*

If I have no backpack, and no access to get another. I bash a drone for its dufflebag.

*bwoink*

If a drone is wearing any armor type headgear, or a rare hat. I bash the drone.

*bwoink*

If a drone opens the door to my department. I will bash the drone.

*bwoink*

disagree on all of these personally, especially the last two. if a drone walks past wearing a space helmet or something then it's clearly stolen vital equipment, and if drones are being shits and letting people into your department with their infinite all access they deserve to be exploded, especially if they can just jump into another drone body in 1 second immediately after dying. the first thing about metal is iffy since if the drone is using it to do their job (repairing the station) then whatever that's fine but if they're just stealing 50 stacks of metal and not doing shit they should be crucified. the duffel bag one is also iffy but i can see why a player would do it, and again i feel like it's not really an issue at all considering a drone dying is more like being forced to wait 1 second to respawn which is hardly even a slap on the wrist.

it's such an incredibly minor inconvenience to die as a drone that calling it bannable for "being a dick" would be like banning people for saying "fuck you" IC.

I agree with PKP on everything he said there.

There was a PR up to let drones pass through airlock doors via hatch without opening it but it got closed cause the hatches were ugly

I thought we explicitly allowed for validing drones when they had something you wanted, you just can't kill them for LITERALLY NO REASON?