/tg/Station 13

Title.

They were removed. They still should be removed. They are still overpowered. Also, who even asked for them?

btw arm enabled them

yes, this is an i ded.

It's for a single week and has nothing to do with anyone but arm stop bitching

kevinz000 wrote:It's for a single week and has nothing to do with anyone but arm stop bitching

for a single week which no one asked for, plus i was never informed about them, what gives?

FrozenGuy5 wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:It's for a single week and has nothing to do with anyone but arm stop bitching

for a single week which no one asked for, plus i was never informed about them, what gives?

So this is a sort of "I am everyone and I don't like them reeeee i ded" thing. Cool.

cedarbridge wrote:

FrozenGuy5 wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:It's for a single week and has nothing to do with anyone but arm stop bitching

for a single week which no one asked for, plus i was never informed about them, what gives?

So this is a sort of "I am everyone and I don't like them reeeee i ded" thing. Cool.

never said i am everyone but i did say i ded

just i, as a player, was never informed. there should've been an adminnotice or annoucement of sorts that this was happening.

sorry we didn't put it into a changelog like the coders sometimes do.

apology accepted however i still want arm's reasoning behind on re-enabling secborgs apart from 'fun.'

kevinz000 wrote:sorry we didn't put it into a changelog like the coders sometimes do.

Policy changelog /WHEN/

I still think that sec borg should be available on station as a single upgrade module in a wall locker in the captain's office. It only opens during red alert. Using it on a borg turns it into a sec borg, like how using a reset one turns them into the default borg.

You don't need to hear my opinion on secborgs, but an unannounced week test like this is perfectly fine imo. We've done them in the past with things like AI removal and they have no real long term consequences except for making everybody go "that sucked, let's never do it again."

At least with the unnanounced enabling arm can't hide behind faulty polls, so that's a plus you should consider, OP

I think it was fine.

Harden up.

I played this game for years with secborgs, learn to counter them, my god. change the laws if they are that much of a threat, and if they misbehave adminhelp them.

My god I cant imagine the amount of bitching that it took to get secborgs removed while I was playing elsewhere, but their removal fucked up the balance of the game hard.

Op is correct

Dr_bee wrote:I played this game for years with secborgs, learn to counter them, my god. change the laws if they are that much of a threat, and if they misbehave adminhelp them.

My god I cant imagine the amount of bitching that it took to get secborgs removed while I was playing elsewhere, but their removal fucked up the balance of the game hard.

this tbh fam

All that aside because we could argue day and night about secborgs,
Headmin promise filled and secborgs will hopefully get removed

Win win to be honest

Dr_bee wrote:I played this game for years with secborgs, learn to counter them, my god. change the laws if they are that much of a threat, and if they misbehave adminhelp them.

My god I cant imagine the amount of bitching that it took to get secborgs removed while I was playing elsewhere, but their removal fucked up the balance of the game hard.

This, literally. Just get good. It's not hard.
They're already nerfed to oblivion.

I like them a lot, they take care of inane shit as sec and their normally someone you can trust

>sec borg shits on two ops in the hallway of meta.
>cuffs both of them and grabs the one.
>stands still while the crew beat the piss out of the other op and moves one tile every time the op he's dragging is hit.


Excellent meme.

>there are people who actually think removing secborgs hurt the balance of this game
ishygddt

secborg removal was the single biggest retard moment this server has ever had. it was LITERALLY like 5 people tops complaining about how they got shut down when they were trying to murderbone and "hbloobloo secborgs op," then circlejerking in a couple of threads until somehow, they actually got removed instead of the community collectively laughing at them and telling them to get fucking good like they should have. i left the server for a long time after this out of pure disgust, i remember they were lobbying hard to get the ai removed too, but thank fucking god the admins/coders at least drew the line there. now its at the point where secborgs have become a meme where any serious discussion about re-adding them is shitposted on and forgotten, and unrobust cucks come on to cry about them if they're ever trialed or event-spawned.

i will always advocate for secborg reintegration, and i will never not be massively salty about how they were removed.

The problem was that the people complaining were right

Asimov secborgs almost universally ignored asimov and very few of them got banned for it
I can't even count the amount of times secborgs have left arrested individuals in a room with people that were calling for his head a moment ago and woo boy guess that guy mysteriously died who'd have thought

I'm ambivalent regarding secborgs but it sure seems like most beefs against them stem from admins letting law violations slide.

Takeguru wrote:The problem was that the people complaining were right

Asimov secborgs almost universally ignored asimov and very few of them got banned for it
I can't even count the amount of times secborgs have left arrested individuals in a room with people that were calling for his head a moment ago and woo boy guess that guy mysteriously died who'd have thought

THEN WHY WEREN'T THE PLAYERS REPRIMANDED RATHER THAN JUST REMOVING BORGS OUTRIGHT

if you have massive text THATS THIS SIZE whenever you start playing as secborg telling you to follow asiimov instead of space law, but then you dont follow asiimov, thats a player thing that the admins need to step in on, and silicons lawyering like that is nothing new in the slightest.

Deitus wrote:secborg removal was the single biggest retard moment this server has ever had. it was LITERALLY like 5 people tops complaining about how they got shut down when they were trying to murderbone and "hbloobloo secborgs op," then circlejerking in a couple of threads until somehow, they actually got removed instead of the community collectively laughing at them and telling them to get fucking good like they should have. i left the server for a long time after this out of pure disgust, i remember they were lobbying hard to get the ai removed too, but thank fucking god the admins/coders at least drew the line there. now its at the point where secborgs have become a meme where any serious discussion about re-adding them is shitposted on and forgotten, and unrobust cucks come on to cry about them if they're ever trialed or event-spawned.

i will always advocate for secborg reintegration, and i will never not be massively salty about how they were removed.

lol

secborgs have always been an administration problem

Takeguru wrote:The problem was that the people complaining were right

Asimov secborgs almost universally ignored asimov and very few of them got banned for it
I can't even count the amount of times secborgs have left arrested individuals in a room with people that were calling for his head a moment ago and woo boy guess that guy mysteriously died who'd have thought

They must have done it during a time I wasn't admining or on a server I don't generally admin. I dedicate a lot of time to policing AI and borgs because I play a lot of AI and borgs. Our policy on borgs and AI is complex, but the vast majority of the rules regarding the roles feeds out of their laws and a few things added to avoid cheesing those laws. The code is, itself, pretty predictable. That said, the roles generally require a fair bit more policing to ensure that they're being played properly and that requires a bit more babysitting from the admins present.

That said, shitty borg players bring the house down for the rest of us. The vast majority of borg complaining isn't about the borgs breaking their laws. The bulk of the complaining is players getting dunked by borgs and not knowing how to not get dunked by borgs. Traitors are armed to the gills in options to fight borgs. Flashes are literally everywhere for non-antags. Laser pointers are everywhere and almost entirely unnoticed. Players bitching about secborgs as being overpowered by of virtue of existing are in dire need of getting good.

PKP and I clearly differ on this subject for several different reasons, but most of it is anecdotal. I'd wager that its also generational. The days of Lauser's murderborg sprees were also the days of C.A.R.P., *Mute, Archimedes, and Triskelion. Secborgs as a module are robust, but they're still totally worthless without a robust MMI at the helm. I'd put up a single robust sec officer with a box of flashbangs against most secborgs this week and expect the officer to come out on top.

tl:dr Players complaining about borgs are the ones who never learned to play around borgs and secborgs being more personal than the average engieborg are forcing them to learn and they don't wanna. Borgs and interacting with borgs should remain a part of the ever-flattening SS13 learning curve.

The problem is this.

The main role of security is to stop antags. Sometimes antags need to be killed or beaten the royal piss out of.

The main role of asimov is to keep humans alive and unharmed. It doesn't fucking care if you're antag or not.

So you combine the two togther and you end up with a fucking mess. No one wants to deal with the daily 10+ ahelps about sec borgs not following law two or disregarding law one somehow. No one wants to deal with the shithead silicon players arresting you for some piss poor excuse law one reason when you're trying to do something interesting. They're just a pain in the ass to keep around and arguing semantics of law two with an autistic silicon player is not my idea of a good time.

People think having 2-4 sec officers that are basically immune to conventional weapons and have all access and infinite ammo within 10 minutes of roundstart is good for some reason it is pretty mind boggling. That's before you even get into them ignoring asimov to hassle the clown and wandering of while sec executes prisoners.

EMPs are a disgustingly boring hard counter that is an AoE parapen but that doesn't really excuse the rest of them.

Only thing I miss about them was the AI being able to shut sec down if they went full psycho but bad years of bad rulings about "you can't lock down security for killing people!" basically got rid of all borgs willing to police that.

t. secborg "main"

Kor wrote:Only thing I miss about them was the AI being able to shut sec down if they went full psycho but bad years of bad rulings about "you can't lock down security for killing people!" basically got rid of all borgs willing to police that.

This is something that needs revisiting. The AI and borgs should be getting involved in sec going full Hitler on the crew. I've had to deal with a number of borgs (not secborgs) just ignoring sec murdering people right next to them. This takes us to the ahelp issue center. Its not secborgs that are causing the ahelps, in and of themselves. Its that we still have a ton of players signing up for borg or getting borged that don't bother to actually notice they have laws or spend a couple seconds figuring out what those laws mean and why they matter.

Secborgs fill a role for the AI that the peacekeeper meme borgs could not fill. The AI is obligated to disallow harm and diffuse it when possible. The non-sec borgs could not do this because none of them have a way to stop a human from doing literally anything except passing doorways. If sec wants to murder somebody, the non-sec borgs can flash the officer, spam *ping, and maybe grab the victim before being flashed and decomissioned. This is obviously ignoring the fact that all of sec has roundstart flash protection. Where we have policies that you mentioned that restrict how the AI can behave to control out of control sec, secborgs can function to control something that other borgs simply cannot. This is also true for things like hulks which other borgs literally have no answer for.

I'm not concerned that borgs are immune to "conventional" means because borgs are not meant to be humans. They're not even strictly better than humans given their rules imposed limitations. They're very specialized but very constricted in how they can use those specialized tools. That's how it had always been before the removal and I don't see much reason not to reverse the removal.

sec borgs as a means for the AI to prevent harm instead of robotic security officers would be neat

Kor wrote:
Only thing I miss about them was the AI being able to shut sec down if they went full psycho but bad years of bad rulings about "you can't lock down security for killing people!" basically got rid of all borgs willing to police that.

While I do agree it's one thing that SecBorg did well was countering terrible security play, but it also gave more fuel to terrible AI/Borg play in those situations as at times it's not clearcut or one sided. Generally, it's horrible anytime the AI flexes its power to stop security. Even the times borgs just go there to heal or pull a human out their impromptu executions where security then kills the borgs for being "rogue." This results in borgs killed for just following their laws and the AI, yet it's hard to judge because at times these executions carried out maybe something where security exhausted options; especially in team antag where Team A vs Team B.

You also have the times AI locks down all security for the actions of one individual then claim all security is harmful, ignoring officers whom are not involved asking to be let out, ignoring other instances of harm in plainsight, and then ignoring the times when other security detains the offending officer(s) who committed murder to try to lift the lockdown on them to no avail. As playing security, it's especially hinderous and not fun, as the AI will focus on them solely ignoring another harmful group such as cult or revolution who then kill more folks as the tunnel vision sets in. You can then see security get stormed and killed in the brig because the AI's actions, which they'll try to mitigate by saving security, but it completely kills any momentum they may have had stop cults or revolutions.


I've been on receiving end of both AI's 'punishing' security and not leaving security alone even after the harmful action had been done, even when the guy that did that harmful thing has been stopped, and it's not fun being stuck in the brig with borgs harassing you and doors keep being bolted if you manage to get out. Especially when you, as a security officer, have deployed completely non-lethal approach the entire round and make sure detained people don't die on your end. Only to get called harmful because the Warden killed a guy in the brig.

The reverse is not fun being the borg, like a friendly mediborg who trys to heal someone they hurt to get flashed and killed. Even more fun, being an engiborg who came to the brig later after an incident with AI/Borgs to get killed just trying to repair their damaged area.

Additionally, as administration this is one the most frustrating things to deal with as both sides can be right and wrong at the same time in this conflict. It usually results in multiple players getting angry if we decide to say it played out ICly, so we have to investigate things then reprimand players on both sides for what is more or less logical.

Deitus wrote:i left the server for a long time after this out of pure disgust,

why did you come back

mfw just had a rev round in bagil where a single secborg mowed down and stunlocked half of their forces and then we just mopped everyone up with implant spam
hahahahaha remove them

kevinz000 wrote:mfw just had a rev round in bagil where a single secborg mowed down and stunlocked half of their forces and then we just mopped everyone up with implant spam
hahahahaha remove them

>rev round
>no flashes
u n r o b u s t

Was that the round where sec had combat mechs anyway and the final head rev was some poor fucker geneticist known to us as having a burned out flash when I searched him before we knew it was rev?

And the other rev head suicide welder bombed the brig?

The "AI should not bolt down security" and be the other red carpet policies are demented and should be undone. They have a fucking door remote and a toolbox they're so unimpeded by bolting that secborgs are almost needed in order to even attempt to stop them mangling people.

Lawbreaking newer or rusty players fulfilling to role more improperly than usual due to the anti borg brigade's stalwart dedication to lowering the level of play is worrying but a poor proof against secborgs.

Every position breaks rules at some point the same argument could be applied to removing assistants or something equally shit. I said from at the initial proposal of secborg removal it would make the game worse and the players worse at playing the game and look the latter is proven right. What a shocker people forget how to play a role properly when you take it away.

The only meme in this case was ever giving these people any influence on the design of the game.

None of this matters because the people in charge have their minds already made up and nothing you say or do will ever change them

honestly just move secborgs to a whitelist method

Incomptinence wrote:Was that the round where sec had combat mechs anyway and the final head rev was some poor fucker geneticist known to us as having a burned out flash when I searched him before we knew it was rev?

And the other rev head suicide welder bombed the brig?

The "AI should not bolt down security" and be the other red carpet policies are demented and should be undone. They have a fucking door remote and a toolbox they're so unimpeded by bolting that secborgs are almost needed in order to even attempt to stop them mangling people.

Lawbreaking newer or rusty players fulfilling to role more improperly than usual due to the anti borg brigade's stalwart dedication to lowering the level of play is worrying but a poor proof against secborgs.

Every position breaks rules at some point the same argument could be applied to removing assistants or something equally shit. I said from at the initial proposal of secborg removal it would make the game worse and the players worse at playing the game and look the latter is proven right. What a shocker people forget how to play a role properly when you take it away.

The only meme in this case was ever giving these people any influence on the design of the game.

no no no you forgot the part where people were horrid when they were in for years you forgot i was here long enough to witness all this as comparatively new as i am compared to most people in the thread.
and yes we had mechs but none of that saved me it was a secborg locking down a hallway.

I played 5 consecutive shifts as a Secborg and let me tell you. They're fucking trash. If you get killed by a secborg. You suck. Uninstall the game.
First of all, You have no fucking power. It drains like crazy. Sometimes you can be full power and have no disabler shots left.
Second of all, I was repeatedly killed by intelligent people who knew what Boxed EMPs are for. Or some shit, everyone seemed to have one.

On the other side. I was a bloody MD and managed to kill two secborgs and a mediborg with nothing but a flash that i had looted from a dead officer prior, when the AI was rogue. As they actively attempted to kill me and allahu ackbar suicide bomb me with their dead shells.

If the Secborg can't follow Asimov, it's a player problem. Not a code problem. This is where Admins should step in.
If you can't grasp the concept of law two'ing your way out of non-harmful crime. You're the problem. Not the secborg. Learn it or deal with it.

Boxed EMPs exist for a reason. Flashes/Flashbangs/Ion Guns have uses on Cyborgs for a reason.
I don't know who the five morons who kept complaining for their removal was but there's just one thing to say to people like them. get good.

This Cyborg module existed for years without issue, and it should've never been removed. But you know, there's nothing we can say about that. They actively delete people posting their points around any removal PRs that show up.

This is not a shitpost, for real. Stop ruining the game because you're an idiot and can't handle losing to something so fucking easy to wreck. If you absolutely have to. Whitelist it you dumb fuck.
What's the fucking matter with people taking five minutes to prove they can play a role/module or have a basic understanding of Asimov/Rules properly in writing before being able to play it?

I understand the "Paperwork" meme ICly being used as a dumb excuse to grief because "HoP wanted me to spend a minute writing on a piece of paper!". Dumb as it is, but jesus christ. This is the forums. You make an account to write here. And if the Admins have to do their jobs, so what? It's what they signed up to do. Quit if you can't handle doing it.

My personal opinion is that we need to stop catering to fucking pussies and have them git gud instead of removing things that they don't like.

PK borg needs zipties before it'll ever be in the same ballpark as the standard borg's effectiveness. Ironically the standard is better at peacekeeping than the Peacekeeper is

Anonmare wrote:PK borg needs zipties before it'll ever be in the same ballpark as the standard borg's effectiveness. Ironically the standard is better at peacekeeping than the Peacekeeper is

Any module can get the job done by dragging beepsky around and setting its mode to danger when the time is right

Doesn't really work when the greytide bully beepsky to death for his baton

This actually happens?

Nilons wrote:sec borgs as a means for the AI to prevent harm instead of robotic security officers would be neat

good post got ignored

make secborgs less concerned with actual security matters and more making sure nobody gets hurt it makes sense thematically

Qbopper wrote:

Nilons wrote:sec borgs as a means for the AI to prevent harm instead of robotic security officers would be neat

good post got ignored

make secborgs less concerned with actual security matters and more making sure nobody gets hurt it makes sense thematically

Wasn't this the idea behind peacekeepers, except that turned into a big meme from day 1?

If you want PKs to be able to prevent security from going full hitter then you should re-work the dampening field to prevent energy-based weapons and certain weapons like batons from functioning while inside of it

It's the idea behind Secborgs.

Players being incapable of grasping that concept while playing Secborgs is a playerbase issue.

Saegrimr wrote:

Qbopper wrote:

Nilons wrote:sec borgs as a means for the AI to prevent harm instead of robotic security officers would be neat

good post got ignored

make secborgs less concerned with actual security matters and more making sure nobody gets hurt it makes sense thematically

Wasn't this the idea behind peacekeepers, except that turned into a big meme from day 1?

Merging the secborg kit with the PK kit would probably change the behavior of the players. though it may take some tweaking.

When you take a big red scary borg labeled "security" it makes you think one thing, but when you take a cute egg that hands out cookies and hugs along with stun batons and cablecuffs with no "security" label it makes you think another.

This, of course, would require coders actually give a fuck about silicons and silicon gameplay.