/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

I see latejoin screens like this pretty regularly on basil

The only way to make people stop playing as assistant is to have a meaningful chain of command, where the downside to assistant actually is that "you answer directly to absolutely everyone." Unfortunately, this seems to be out of reach for the server's policy and has been as long as I've played here.

bandit wrote:The only way to make people stop playing as assistant is to have a meaningful chain of command, where the downside to assistant actually is that "you answer directly to absolutely everyone." Unfortunately, this seems to be out of reach for the server's policy and has been as long as I've played here.

Assistants don't really even make a lot of sense, the more I think about them. I mean, our lore is pretty damn vague, and we already make vague allowances for the clown and mime, but what the hell is the purpose of what are basically free-roaming civilians on a plasma research station? We don't have an economic system so its not like they are passing through. There are employment contracts for them all in the lawyer's office so they're apparently employed on the station for some purpose. They have no access to anything but maint (for some reason they have access to that anyway) so its not like they have a workplace to report to. They don't report to everyone because they don't report to anyone. Assistant was meant to be a pour-over job and turned into a default "do whatever you want" job functionally outside of the chain of command but somehow still part of the station crew.

Possible WIP solution:
- Assistants are no longer part of the crew until assigned to a department and given a real role. They are non-crew civilians until they get a job and shave that gross hippie beard.
- Non-crew on the station that cause trouble can be imprisoned, gulaged or deported (to lavaland or out an airlock) from the station for committing crimes befitting those punishments. This would apply to theoretical off-station, non-crew roles like traders in the future as well.
- Arrivals area customs offices and customs officer (new officer spawn point assigned to the HoP as a go between with security) can process new arrival non-crew at the arrivals shuttle lobby for employment on the station.
- Opens space for implementation of much bantered about economics system because now there are non-crew on the station that need a means of interfacing with the different departments on a station where nobody is obligated to give them anything, but would be inclined to sell them things in exchange for currency that can be used to order things from cargo, off station traders, etc.

I still say Assistants should lose their right to not be fucked with on account of them being literally no one important, but assistants can't do the same to non-assistants.

If I want to kidnap a greyshirt and perform experimental surgery on them then it's their own fault for choosing to wear grey.

Split newbie/no slots left on station assistants and "i dont want a real job" assistants into "Staff Assistants" and "Reserve Personnel" or something

why won't you just increase the shaft miner job slots and make two lavaland z-levels, kor

even turn it into migrant-lite and make assistants spawn on lavaland

imblyings wrote:why won't you just increase the shaft miner job slots and make two lavaland z-levels, kor

even turn it into migrant-lite and make assistants spawn on lavaland

It's bad enough having one guy respawn as a vet or beach bum 6 times to keep trying to kill you.

Saegrimr wrote:

imblyings wrote:why won't you just increase the shaft miner job slots and make two lavaland z-levels, kor

even turn it into migrant-lite and make assistants spawn on lavaland

It's bad enough having one guy respawn as a vet or beach bum 6 times to keep trying to kill you.

Haven't seen that since we banned the guy from space bartending.

Saegrimr wrote:

imblyings wrote:why won't you just increase the shaft miner job slots and make two lavaland z-levels, kor

even turn it into migrant-lite and make assistants spawn on lavaland

It's bad enough having one guy respawn as a vet or beach bum 6 times to keep trying to kill you.

can just lower ruin chances

IS IT TIME FOR A SECURITY CAP? (While im obviously joking this whole thread is silly, if anything my shitpost has some relevance because there's a pretty predictable relationship between security staff and total population that would only be exacerbated by something silly like an assistant cap).

the dreaded red tide

I'm amazed no one is mentioning antag rolling. That's the number one reason a lot of people happily admit to when picking assistant.

You roll for antag, if you don't get it you greytide to be a pseudo-antag. Hell I did the same shit. Greytide a lot to practice being robust then when you get that sweet antag you're better than most people (at non-competitive roleplaying game yes I'm a massive faggot) and get to kick over everyone's legos. I know almost all of the forever-assistant people on Sybil do it for that reason.

Lucky for me I'm an admin so I can use the genuine reason of "I want no commitment so I can bail and sort tickets" and I play other roles when more admins are online.

I don't think we should ban antag rolling because it's basically impossible to enforce and each individual person responsible for it isn't doing enough harm to other people for it to warrant punishment. It's a systemic problem.

I feel like maybe we could think of a solution eventually but that seems to be the key problem to me.

As for arrivals joiners, you're already distanced from the round somewhat, you have no idea the state of the station or each department and you didn't get to control it from the start so it's unlikely anything is going to go your way. No scientists, for example, will give up their station for a new-arrival, the good accessible loot is all gone, security is well-established or non-existent and you're basically at a disadvantage. Joining as an assistant is basically getting to interact with a round you have zero stake in. You're unlikely to be a hero if you weren't part of the that round's story from the beginning, so I think it's natural people pick a neutral option they can just run around as before they decide on what they want to do, if anything. I don't think the latejoin 'problem' really needs solving. It's a natural thing that's going to happen as a result of the way the game works I reckon.

bandit wrote:The only way to make people stop playing as assistant is to have a meaningful chain of command, where the downside to assistant actually is that "you answer directly to absolutely everyone." Unfortunately, this seems to be out of reach for the server's policy and has been as long as I've played here.

Assistants aren't indebted enough to actually want to assist since they are free citizens with no official repsonsibilities other than to get a job & basically mingle and doss around being troublesome, which is a split OOC/IC issue as all TG players have a mischievous streak.

In the same vein, outside of obvious equipment-creep it is a RP suggestion only to assist & act out heads of staff are superiors, actual genuine ("im going to listen to this guy") respect is commanded by static and repeatedly commended and publicised heads, meanwhile being a assistant with no job is viewed as a opportunistic chance to jump the queue into a job by hook or crook, steal the captains ID and become a impostor (which after 5 clown/assistant captains gets boring & annoying)

Answer is simple, restrict all non-humans to assistants & do not enforce a assistant cap so it is bloated. Then make all human & non-human assistants valid by security forces as undesirables under specific clauses. Dying horribly is the only thing assistants understand about the execution of station justice & power as they are prone to
re-offending, to be released back into their cycle of griefing and boredom, where they wont be chastised for being away & in prison.

- People shout over radio why isn't X in their office, or have time constrained projects they need to be doing like farming plants & slimes that being in prison is extremely unhelpful with that motivates them to stay out of that place.

- Human assistants are just executed off camera and there are de-escalated rules of the HOS/warden instead of the captain authorizing it.

Then make application to roundstart/latejoin heads of staff to be restricted to game hours & medals in which handing out progression based medals without actual credit clause is a admin enactable offence, greentext medal stealing contributes also +1 your score to enabling a head role.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Answer is simple, restrict all non-humans to assistant

Fwoosh, I know you're not ACTUALLY retarded but you didn't think this would fly under the radar right?

I was just casting the net wide, non-human assistants are also some of the worst offenders with my prior arguement because they are already actively banned from jobs, which means that assistants seeking protection will get jobs.

There will naturally be less lizards & flies on the station (edit- Not in work, 1/3rd of the station population as per lore has applicable slots) that aren't being spaced by security compared to catpeople who are excluded from heads jobs by policy altogether, and this naturally controls the greytide & adds actual non-human disparity in overall population. Makes the AI and everyone's job easier and enforces the lore of Nanotren being pro-human and that these races aren't primarily integrated into the full workforce.

Thanks for taking the bait so i can explain that in depth rather than mention it later.

cedarbridge wrote:

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Answer is simple, restrict all non-humans to assistant

Fwoosh, I know you're not ACTUALLY retarded but you didn't think this would fly under the radar right?

You read his posts?

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Thanks for taking the bait so i can explain that in depth rather than mention it later.

"I was just pretending" is still shitposting.

Apply the same commendation system tracked by the HOP to allow non-humans to enable roundstart jobs in the future, every single nonhuman has to prove they are employable or get removed by security without the AI caring, If the head selection process is thorough the HOP should be reliable enough to do this job competently.

Im actually throwing the non-human races a lifeline here to free themselves of their self-imposed views of oppression on the station, first day of a new char & race working from the bottom up not shitting all over the place as another assistant greytider and eventually they can brown nose themselves to a solid position like QM (or higher) free of majority discrimination. Also making them more interesting to play.

cedarbridge wrote:

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Thanks for taking the bait so i can explain that in depth rather than mention it later.

"I was just pretending" is still shitposting.

You're confusing "I was pretending" with "That was the deliberate plan dumbass" or least a inevitably happy accident.

outplayed

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Split newbie/no slots left on station assistants and "i dont want a real job" assistants into "Staff Assistants" and "Reserve Personnel" or something

Naturally i support something like this to atleast make dossers distinct, but in my approach i was not trying to change the model of the game by switching around some titles to brand people, if you can't use the carrot to encourage people to play meaningful jobs in the game, you will need to lean towards using the stick, admins self confessed that tacking the greytide itself does not work so some alternative hardline resolution needs to be met.

I will admit I usually go assistant when I want to role antag (never works) or failing that just fuck around.

Honestly I would support changing the Assistant role to a lavaland spawn. Make them like Migrants from that game we shall no speak off and give thems shitty equipment in a hostile environment on a second lavaland z-level. They can try and make their way to the station or eek out an existence on Lavaland.

a trial run of switching assistants to migrants would be pretty cool

despite my initial gut reaction, this might also help new players - although assistant gives you a risk free way to learn the controls, it's a tossup nowadays if people will actually take a new player on board as an actual assistant, and having a job to do can give them some motivation to play

I think it's worth trying out

Qbopper wrote:a trial run of switching assistants to migrants would be pretty cool

despite my initial gut reaction, this might also help new players - although assistant gives you a risk free way to learn the controls, it's a tossup nowadays if people will actually take a new player on board as an actual assistant, and having a job to do can give them some motivation to play

I think it's worth trying out

I'd wager that new players generally don't play assistant unless they join a round with all roles already taken.

cedarbridge wrote:

Qbopper wrote:a trial run of switching assistants to migrants would be pretty cool

despite my initial gut reaction, this might also help new players - although assistant gives you a risk free way to learn the controls, it's a tossup nowadays if people will actually take a new player on board as an actual assistant, and having a job to do can give them some motivation to play

I think it's worth trying out

I'd wager that new players generally don't play assistant unless they join a round with all roles already taken.

i'd bet otherwise but neither of us have actual data

If you really want assistants to be a new player role then do a inverse of how certain jobs and antag need you to have played for X days. Instead have it that the Assistant role is only unlocked for the first seven or so days you play on the server.

Steelpoint wrote:If you really want assistants to be a new player role then do a inverse of how certain jobs and antag need you to have played for X days. Instead have it that the Assistant role is only unlocked for the first seven or so days you play on the server.

Wouldn't work because assistant is also the overflow role. The only way you're going to see a marked decrease in the number of roundstart or non-obligatory assistants is by making the role undesireable for anything but learning the game or merely getting by. Fancy toys and run things are gated behind being useful for something and getting a job.

Then make migrants the overflow role.

Steelpoint wrote:Then make migrants the overflow role.

So you're going to gate roughly 50% of the player roles through the mining shuttle?

I'd argue that the migrants should have a alternative way to get to the station that does not come through the mining dock, and is somewhat automated and observable by the HoP or Captain if needed. Hence why it should be on a second lavaland z-level.

i can try throwing together a basic migrant framework this lunch break for planetstation

Having thought about this for a while and seeing the issue with overpopulation on bagil I would agree to an assistant cap if there was also a hard cap on the number of people allowed on the server at once.

Otherwise we should go down the route of not making assistants actual crew. They are essentially visitors, interns, tourists, whatever the hell you want to call them though it should fit into the lore for a supposedly state of the art research station. Basically if they cause any shit then they're valid, it's in their NT contract that their life is forfeit if they cause any shit.

Rustledjimm wrote:Having thought about this for a while and seeing the issue with overpopulation on bagil I would agree to an assistant cap if there was also a hard cap on the number of people allowed on the server at once.

Otherwise we should go down the route of not making assistants actual crew. They are essentially visitors, interns, tourists, whatever the hell you want to call them though it should fit into the lore for a supposedly state of the art research station. Basically if they cause any shit then they're valid, it's in their NT contract that their life is forfeit if they cause any shit.

I unironically agree that the standard punishment for assistants doing anything more annoying then hacking vending machines should be summery execution, at least for a few weeks, but this would have to be paired with some changes to escalation rules and a good chunk of bans for people who don't follow those rules. I'm sure theres going to be a lot of resistance to this, but I legitimately think this is the only way to save the server from turning into hippie.

If you want to make being an assistant undesirable removing their maint access is a great way of making the role insufferable.

D&B wrote:If you want to make being an assistant undesirable removing their maint access is a great way of making the role insufferable.

I mean, this but unironically. Assistants currently have better access to 90% of the station than everyone but engineering.

cedarbridge wrote:

D&B wrote:If you want to make being an assistant undesirable removing their maint access is a great way of making the role insufferable.

I mean, this but unironically. Assistants currently have better access to 90% of the station than everyone but engineering.

This way for long time and there has been no real argument for them to have it. Just loud, incessant whining when assmaint was removed that it just sorta came back.
Make the job less easy for shit. Remove assmaint. Just to prove you can make changes for the good, do it and bloody keep it. This was a test way back when and tg failed by giving in.
Let's see if we can fix shit this time around.

Gamarr wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

D&B wrote:If you want to make being an assistant undesirable removing their maint access is a great way of making the role insufferable.

I mean, this but unironically. Assistants currently have better access to 90% of the station than everyone but engineering.

This way for long time and there has been no real argument for them to have it. Just loud, incessant whining when assmaint was removed that it just sorta came back.
Make the job less easy for shit. Remove assmaint. Just to prove you can make changes for the good, do it and bloody keep it. This was a test way back when and tg failed by giving in.
Let's see if we can fix shit this time around.

As best I can tell the only "compelling" argument is that assistants will just break into maint anyway and leave maint bolted open to get back their freedom of travel.

D&B wrote:If you want to make being an assistant undesirable removing their maint access is a great way of making the role insufferable.

It was tried before. The problem is that "work" is rarely fun, so people just pick assistants and do whatever. I despise commerce systems but at least it would force greys to get a job.

There's no reason to neuter assistants as a job when it's the players that are the problem

Takeguru wrote:There's no reason to neuter assistants as a job when it's the players that are the problem

So you're saying you need someone to ban a bunch of greyshirts again, right? :^)

Saegrimr wrote:

Takeguru wrote:There's no reason to neuter assistants as a job when it's the players that are the problem

So you're saying you need someone to ban a bunch of greyshirts again, right? :^)

please come back saeg

Last time we had the Assistants maint access debate it was mostly tied around the issue of Security Officers also having maintenance access.

People were arguing that if Assistants lost access then Security should as well, so 99% of the debate went to the value of maint for Sec and Ass.

Lumbermancer wrote:

D&B wrote:If you want to make being an assistant undesirable removing their maint access is a great way of making the role insufferable.

It was tried before. The problem is that "work" is rarely fun, so people just pick assistants and do whatever. I despise commerce systems but at least it would force greys to get a job.

I mentioned this earlier. If we could take a mile-up view on this and adjust item values (including scarcity in a world that's mostly post-scarcity), and work out a sort of budgeting/economics system you could have greyshirts operate as civilian visitors to the station instead of just random fuckaround unassigned crew. Departments would sell their toys to greys, greys would do odd jobs for departments and assist in return for pay. HoPs and heads would hire greys as full time or temp staff in a pinch. If we took it as a budget control system instead of a random pay system then heads would have control to make sure that their employees were paid and were granted bonuses for doing extra well as well as using part of the allotment for required or wanted things from elsewhere. It would also reward space exploration. A greyshirt could explore space and return to station to hawk his wares to the different paying departments. The RD would probably pay top dollar for a xeno egg. The captain might pay really well for a gondola. There's a lot of design space but it would depend on making a lot of fairly substantial changes and it would also require a bit of adjustment to how the roles are played.

Additionally, shifting greyshirts from unassigned crew to visiting civilians means how sec treats them would change slightly too. Breaking and entering would be a more severe offense. Civies in usauthorized spaces on a secure corporate research station would be open to much more harsh treatment than "unassigned" crew. However, mistreating a civilian in the hallways would likely invite harsh reprisals against sec and the station in general if word got out that the crew was mistreating guests.

I'd see sec maint go if assistants lost it.

The detective should the sec guy with maint. Maybe maint can be something other than a secondary hallway for assistants and antagonists can do antagonistic things in maint without having to worry about a random assistant bumbling into their base of operations in search of valids

Anonmare wrote:I'd see sec maint go if assistants lost it.

I'm not really following. Why would sec need to lose maint access too?

Welcome to the start of the arguments over sec maint access with assistant maint access.

Steelpoint wrote:Welcome to the start of the arguments over sec maint access with assistant maint access.

And so it begins.

EDIT: Actually I'm changing my post to say that this topic is not whether security should have maint access if assistants don't. So personally I think this thread should talk PURELY about what should be done regarding assistants and if their maint access is taken away a SEPARATE thread is made discussing security officer maint access.

Let's try to keep this thread as on-topic as possible please.

The idea that if something is taken away something must be given or taken away from someone else to be balanced is a logical fallacy.

Sometimes things just need to be nerfed, and forcing people to actually do jobs and not be shitlords when they dont roll antag may require a nerf of some kind. either by relaxing assistant escalation rules or nerfing access.

Personally I like the idea of making staff assistant a time limited job and making the latejoin or overflow role Civilians.

Dont give civilians IDs and give them escalation rules similar to other ghost roles. If you want to be protected by "nanotrasen corporate regulations" go see the head of personnel and get a fucking ID and job, even if it is a silly fluff one.