/tg/Station 13

Byond account age restrictions do not require actual game time, so are not a good reflection of actual ability.

Enable the following configs on sybil/basil but not terry (due to pop issues)

## Unhash this to enable playtime requirements for head jobs.
#USE_EXP_RESTRICTIONS_HEADS
## Unhash this to override head jobs' playtime requirements with this number of hours.
#USE_EXP_RESTRICTIONS_HEADS_HOURS 15
## Unhash this to change head jobs' playtime requirements so that they're based on department playtime, rather than crew playtime.
#USE_EXP_RESTRICTIONS_HEADS_DEPARTMENT
## Unhash this to enable playtime requirements for certain non-head jobs, like Engineer and Scientist.
#USE_EXP_RESTRICTIONS_OTHER
## Allows admins to bypass job playtime requirements.
#USE_EXP_RESTRICTIONS_ADMIN_BYPASS


Why: it means you have some actual in game time before getting advanced roles, we're doing a disservice to players who connect and don't have play time, as well as the people who have to play with those people in those roles

Also I want to extend this to senior antags like the nuke captain, rev and cult leaders, so that they require time as a nukeop, cultist or revolutionary to be rollable for.

actually exempt terry from these restrictions

Players better be getting grandfathered in on the antag ones and definitely the head ones

Of course you fucking muppet, player tracking has been enabled for ages, so it's very unlikely you would not meet any of the criteria assuming you pla-- oh wait

iamgoofball wrote:Players better be getting grandfathered in on the antag ones and definitely the head ones

Nope.

Great, so we're penalizing players who can't fucking spend every waking hour logging in hoping for an antag role.

I know how to click spaceman and now I'm blocked from playing CMO despite coding the current medical system because I don't have time to marathon ss13 while paying my bills on time, unlike kevin.

your time doesn't decay buddy, you just have to show up.

Blocking nuke ops leader is even dumber, revs and cults I understand because you can get converted into them and they're complex with special rules and toys, but the percentage chance of getting nuke op in an 80 player round with every other gamemode is incredibly low, and the nuke leader is whoever actually takes point, when I play if I get nuke it tends to get handed to whoever has the plan.

Make an exception for long time players or add some kind of whitelist or something, because expecting long time vets to grind just because they have an irl life and job is fucking dumb

Yeah, time doesn't decay but I know when we added the system and I know how much I play. I can sit down and do every job in the game right now by the book and I don't qualify for every xp locked thing now.

What I'm trying to say is this system works great for new players but just fucks over the motivation for older players. Considering how much we love sucking said older player dongs, this surprises me.

Provided I don't get stickybanned for PRing config options again I'll just code a cutoff date system to automate this.

Then play the game?

Cobby wrote:Then play the game?

Read the post you spoiled admin brat.

This is an excellent idea, sadly I've not been playing much since tracking was enabled so I still have to grind 2 hours in supply to unlock HoP but I have all other heads already unlocked except for CMO (not a problem 'cause I utterly despise medical). I've been playing on /tg/ since 2012 but I don't mind not been grandfathered in, if anything it will provide an incentive for old players to go back to menial jobs and bring their expertise there, even if it's just to unlock a head role. After all, I complained a lot about incompetent cargo techs in the past and it's only fair that I am now forced to play cargo.

I wouldn't enable it for other, it's not like science is anything but time gate memes anymore.
Engineering, you only learn to work with the SM as an engineer. If you fuck up you will still have like 10 minutes to fix the SM.
Though for security officer it's needed. Also make the AI have playtime as a cyborg so they know policy.

Aside from those I completely agree, I'm tired of incompetent CMOs.

Dax Dupont wrote:Though for security officer it's needed.

Ye what we need is even less security.

I am 100% for enabling this for heads and silicons

I am 0% for enabling this for anyone else

I am 0% for allowing goof to make PRs to impose his personal view on config changes

Is this time spent alive? What if I get smashed 5 minutes into the round?
Does Chef/Janitor/Botanist count as "Supply" time?
Does AI/Cyborg have a time requirement?
Apparently I have a few hours to spend as medical, but I have captain unlocked, and i'm not sure where to view antag unlock time if that does exist because all appear to be available to me in game prefs.

I'd actually play Sec more if I knew I would have a halfway competent team. But even with XP restrictions thats probably a pipe dream.

The most dangerous thing to a sec officer is having an incompetent colleague/superior. I honestly can't remember the last time I died to a revolver/ebow/esword but its a daily occurrence to get gunned down by security guns thats have fallen into antag hands.

Anyway there's really no argument against enabling this for Heads and seeing how it goes.

Having to grind to unlock roles, especially when your timer stops going up after you die*, sounds really unfriendly to new players in a game that is already very unfriendly to new players.

And not only new players, but anyone who wants to switch from another server or return from a period of absence. We're a tiny niche game where we lose 90% of our players within the first week already(according to erros old stat tracker), dont put more hurdles up.

*Don't think I can fully express how distasteful I find it that the system penalizes new players for being killed given how it is already highly unpleasant for them when some burned out veteran player decides to wipe out the station

The game is about dying terribly you shouldn't be penalized outside of the current round for dying terribly

if this only counts alive time then no fuck this shit

We already hardlock the head roles behind account age since first seen. We get players who complain that they're locked out of roles because they're using a new acount. I'm less convinced by that sort of thing than I am convinced by the fact that we do enforce minimum levels of command role competence. Requiring players to actually play the departments they want to be head of before playing the head roles for that department seems pretty obvious. If new players are being turned away because they can't play as RD without knowing how science works or HOS without knowing how a tazer works then we're not honestly losing much. They were in it for the access and the toys and they'd be out as soon as the novelty wore off or as soon as their lack of actual player knowledge caught up to them anyway. We restrict head and command roles for important reasons. These roles have expectations of minimum competence so requiring a player to spend the time required in a department to acquire minimum competence is a natural progression and its something we have had players and admins asking for for years.

Whoa holy shit this is the version that only counts alive time?

Jesus christ are you people autistic

Dax Dupont wrote:if this only counts alive time then no fuck this shit

I'm not a big fan of this either but how can someone be competent in a position when they're dead? Antag leader roles should definitely not be affected by life/death though since those require game knowledge as oppose to using departmental features.

iamgoofball wrote:

Cobby wrote:Then play the game?

Read the post you spoiled admin brat.

If you don't play because you have a job/life then you're not going to be affected at all by any changes made to the server because you do not engage in said server. There is nothing wrong with that until you start trying to dictate policy on a hypothetical that you might play again ****eventually**** when our code is constantly changing in minor and major ways.

In the instance you do play you should take the time to get accustomed with some of it's newer features (assuming there are any) in both the game as a whole and the particular department you're going in instead of taking up a role to someone who is well versed in most/all newer features.

There is nothing wrong with you having a life/job/etc. to the same degree there shouldn't be anything wrong with having players who haven't played the role(s) since the system got added get accustomed to the current features before playing roles pivotal to the progression of the round again.

Kor wrote:b

Can I ask what's to be gained though by putting new players in leadership roles or roles with strict auxiliary rules (drone/silicons) though? Players who are currently playing shouldn't be penalized for having people who don't know what they're doing signing up for jobs that require a good grasp of the game, and newer players are definitely not going to come back if they get banned from a role by admins.

For the server-hoppers, they could just pick their favorite job of that department and bypass restrictions (since they know how to play the game) by asking the selected head/hop. We just need to make it clear that's not a bad thing I guess.


To quell some of your concerns and goofs though, I think playtime in general should count partially towards departmental heads meaning if you play a bunch but not engineer you can still eventually play CE.

Dax Dupont wrote:if this only counts alive time then no fuck this shit

If they were competent, they wouldn't be dead. Players both old and new should look at it this way: it doesn't punish you, it rewards you for surviving by unlocking more game content. It offers a challenge.

As a bonus, it makes life harder for permabanned people who somehow manage to cheat the ban because it prevents them from using a new account to sign up as captain and fuck everything up.

Grazyn wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:if this only counts alive time then no fuck this shit

If they were competent, they wouldn't be dead. Players both old and new should look at it this way: it doesn't punish you, it rewards you for surviving by unlocking more game content. It offers a challenge.

As a bonus, it makes life harder for permabanned people who somehow manage to cheat the ban because it prevents them from using a new account to sign up as captain and fuck everything up.

You're fucking retarded

Cobby wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:if this only counts alive time then no fuck this shit

I'm not a big fan of this either but how can someone be competent in a position when they're dead? Antag leader roles should definitely not be affected by life/death though since those require game knowledge as oppose to using departmental features.

iamgoofball wrote:

Cobby wrote:Then play the game?

Read the post you spoiled admin brat.

If you don't play because you have a job/life then you're not going to be affected at all by any changes made to the server because you do not engage in said server. There is nothing wrong with that until you start trying to dictate policy on a hypothetical that you might play again ****eventually**** when our code is constantly changing in minor and major ways.

In the instance you do play you should take the time to get accustomed with some of it's newer features (assuming there are any) in both the game as a whole and the particular department you're going in instead of taking up a role to someone who is well versed in most/all newer features.

There is nothing wrong with you having a life/job/etc. to the same degree there shouldn't be anything wrong with having players who haven't played the role(s) since the system got added get accustomed to the current features before playing roles pivotal to the progression of the round again.

Kor wrote:b

Can I ask what's to be gained though by putting new players in leadership roles or roles with strict auxiliary rules (drone/silicons) though? Players who are currently playing shouldn't be penalized for having people who don't know what they're doing signing up for jobs that require a good grasp of the game, and newer players are definitely not going to come back if they get banned from a role by admins.

For the server-hoppers, they could just pick their favorite job of that department and bypass restrictions (since they know how to play the game) by asking the selected head/hop. We just need to make it clear that's not a bad thing I guess.


To quell some of your concerns and goofs though, I think playtime in general should count partially towards departmental heads meaning if you play a bunch but not engineer you can still eventually play CE.

Oh my god you're even more retarded

>loool if they play for 3 hours then die from an rng disease those 3 hours just get tossed

>>HAHA GOOF DOESN'T PLAY LOL PLAY MORE FAGGOT

I'm sorry I'm busy working multiple minimum wage jobs to pay college debt while barely making ends meet on bills and that I can't fucking play 24/7 like a shut in admin like yourself you fucking pig.

The timer just stops when you die, it doesn't reset. If not, well yes that's retarded.

I very much agree with this idea but goof is already on full shitpost mode in the forums so you can bet he'll shitpost on the pr hard enough that it wouldn't get merged

maybe if you did less shitposting and trolling you wouldn't have to work so many jobs goof

SpaceInaba wrote:maybe if you did less shitposting and trolling you wouldn't have to work so many jobs goof

I don't know how he has the time with all of those minimum wage jobs he has to work to pay for a degree that isn't paying for itself.

Deitus wrote:I very much agree with this idea but goof is already on full shitpost mode in the forums so you can bet he'll shitpost on the pr hard enough that it wouldn't get merged

It's a headmin setting thing you RETARDED IDIOT

iamgoofball wrote: Oh my god you're even more retarded

>loool if they play for 3 hours then die from an rng disease those 3 hours just get tossed

>>HAHA GOOF DOESN'T PLAY LOL PLAY MORE FAGGOT

I'm sorry I'm busy working multiple minimum wage jobs to pay college debt while barely making ends meet on bills and that I can't fucking play 24/7 like a shut in admin like yourself you fucking pig.

I was under the impression dying didn't delete your progress but rather stopped the timer??? Yes if you randomly die you can't do <job> so naturally your progression in <job> should stop. As I mentioned earlier though, you should be able to play other aspects of the game (including observe) and still be rewarded partial <job> experience since you know how they work, if indirectly.

No one is bashing you for doing what you need to do IRL goof which is why I haven't stooped to your level of name-calling. All i'm saying is between when you last got on and your hypothetical return there's going to be lots of changes of varying degrees to the game. You should play a minor role to get accustomed to the new features (both general and the department-specific changes) before going into a pivotal role and negatively impacting the round (negatively) for those involved.

I just picked med doctor and went afk in the dorms.

iamgoofball wrote: >loool if they play for 3 hours then die from an rng disease those 3 hours just get tossed

Holy fucking shit the goofball has gotten even more retarded!

You dumbass dieing stops ticking the timer up, it doesn't reset it for the round.

or to be more precise every 10 minutes you earn 10 minutes of exp if you are alive.

76 - 90 hours (if you dare play non main 5 dept roles your you are making less unlock exp this includes service) of living participation based grinding for any new player coming in today to unlock all the head roles.

Not even sure time spent playing hop previously counts toward unlocking hop because the role is in code under captain rather than cargo_service.

MrStonedOne wrote:

iamgoofball wrote: >loool if they play for 3 hours then die from an rng disease those 3 hours just get tossed

Holy fucking shit the goofball has gotten even more retarded!

You dumbass dieing stops ticking the timer up, it doesn't reset it for the round.

or to be more precise every 10 minutes you earn 10 minutes of exp if you are alive.

I checked my logs, not only is my job exp (610 minutes total) not the same as my Living exp (580~ minutes), but I've definitely played more than 10 hours in the last 8 months. And definitely way more than 10 minutes alive as a revolutionary.

Something is dropping time, and I've been fucked by it.

I spend 80% of my time admining now because I'm usually the only admin on and now I'm locked out of the head roles.

What a fucking kick in the balls. "Thanks for my wasting your time telling everyone else how to play the roles, oh by the way even though you've been here for over six years and are now trusted enough to enforce game policy and let others know how to play roles you're now locked out of them. What an absolutely great gift to wasting my time admining.

MrStonedOne wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:Players better be getting grandfathered in on the antag ones and definitely the head ones

Nope.

Terrible system then

Maybe make the time required shorter?

That would ruin the sense of pride and accomplishment

Dax Dupont wrote:Maybe make the time required shorter?

The problem with short timers is that it would he quick to get to a particular head role and allow the player in question to mess everything up, defeating the goal of the system. Even with relatively short timers you have to multiply that by 6 or 8 or whatever so it ends up being a big grind for long time players who just want to bounce around.

Cobby wrote:things

Yeah sure in an ideal world itd be nice if people knew what they were doing before playing certain jobs but this is a clumsy way to do it with too much collateral.

It's also a fucking pipe dream. A pretty consistent experience in online multiplayer games is that everyone considers their team incompetent garbage. If games with millions of players and millions in funding still run into this, what makes you think our game where you get permabanned for using a mic and not enough players for matchmaking is gonna give you your MLG experience?

Sometimes the captain is just a comdom. That's how our game is. We simply do not have enough players who

1) Are friendly/rule abiding
2) Robust

To fill every security/head slot in every round across 3 servers 24 hours a day. They're stressful roles to play and half the old players who complain about incompetent heads are rolling assistant every round.

Kor wrote:Having to grind to unlock roles, especially when your timer stops going up after you die*, sounds really unfriendly to new players in a game that is already very unfriendly to new players.

And not only new players, but anyone who wants to switch from another server or return from a period of absence. We're a tiny niche game where we lose 90% of our players within the first week already(according to erros old stat tracker), dont put more hurdles up.

*Don't think I can fully express how distasteful I find it that the system penalizes new players for being killed given how it is already highly unpleasant for them when some burned out veteran player decides to wipe out the station

It's unfriendly to new players to dump them into roles they are clearly not prepared for, new players are not going to find this unfriendly, spending time to unlock more jobs is a well understood paradigm, they will have plenty of roles to play from already.

On top of that, what new player is actually wanting to play head roles anyway? If someone is new they will not be touching those roles because our wiki explicitly says NOT to do this with very strict wording. Someone who jumps in as a new player and tries to play head or AI is just going to fuck up the round or the other 70 players online, who also don't `deserve` to have their round ruined because the new player set a button without understanding the impact.

The fact you're raising some spectre of losing players when we have ~150/160 players across three servers is also somewhat odd.

Also what do you mean by penalising people for getting killed? This is about ensuring they have some actual real playtime in a department before getting the head roles, they're not suddenly going to lose the ability to be a cargo tech because they died?

These aren't very high barriers to entry, I'm thinking maybe an hour or two of play time in each role before allowing departmental head roles.

This isjust encoding policy we already encourage new players to follow on the wiki and when we give them advice, which is to start in smaller roles and work your way

Again we're already tracking play time for some time, so any regular player on /tg/ is very unlikely to beaffected unless they rarely play, in which case that's their problem, if this non issue really bothers you I can just set a cap on the time they arrived at our server so it only applies to new connections so durkel doesn't spit his dummy.

Also saying returning players need to grind for hours before they can understand cyborg or AI or HoP or CMO is nonsense. The only job that takes a serious amount of understanding and that has significantly changed in five years is the CE. The game would not collapse if Phoebe Lotsu started playing CMO again after a year but had to check the wiki for a chem recipe, but the game is gonna be noticeably worse for a ton of people who have been around for years who suddenly cant play the roles they want.

On top of that, what new player is actually wanting to play head roles anyway?

Apparently enough of them are doing it that we need to lock players like Saeg or Durkel out of parts of the game.

Easier to just jobban people who get in over their heads then pre-emptively punish everyone.

it's a non issue you're just using it to deflect, I can easily make it apply only to accounts that have not been seen before on tg.

You're the first person who has offered to fix it rather than saying "lol play the game" or "dont be poor goof" so it does not feel like a non issue (and it isnt like its a new concern, I brought this up months ago before the PRs were merged and nobody showed willingness to change it then either)

I'd still think this alleged plague of completley new people who have never touched ss13 before rushing captain to not be worth fucking over server hoppers though

The cargo requirement should be reduced to six minutes for obvious reasons

One, unlike the old system, admins actually have a button to exempt people from the exp requirements, its the player panel.


Two, server hoppers have always had to deal with waiting to be able to do anything, this gives less time of waiting than the old system that required 21 days to get borg or 30 to get AI. (those are the only two I actually remembered)

Three, the age requirement thing created a value to maintaining an account, this expands and more properly defines thats. Everybody here likely knows how much of a stubborn little shit I can be at times. As a player before I became host, there were been times where a ruling came out I didn't agree with. You know kept me in line? Knowing that If I got banned and ban evaded I'd lose access to the roles I unlocked on my new account. In fact I assumed that was the whole point of the account age system.

edit: and I do think that people coming here from other servers might need to understand our rules better before they can access head roles.

to be clear I don't think there's any value in turning it on for the base jobs

cargo/engineer/science/sec (yes even sec)/atmos/borg should all be accessible

this is purely head roles and the AI (I would even exempt QM from head roles)

Why not have a system where meeting a req like the 15 hour threshold just makes you first pick ahead of less experienced players.

If no highly experienced player wants to play the head role the department just shrunk by one as it currently stands.

Incomptinence wrote:Why not have a system where meeting a req like the 15 hour threshold just makes you first pick ahead of less experienced players.

If no hughly experienced player wants to play the head role the department just shrunk by one as it currently stands.

That was actually my suggestion.

Lock it so they can only set it to low,

Anywho, i'll be running a sql query to exempt anybody who had 2000 connections in the time before the system was added

I guess if there is an exemption button and MSO is grandfathering people thats most of my major concerns met and I'll stop making bad posts. Thanks for reaching a middleground. I agree it shouldnt apply to borg though, its one of the easiest roles to learn with.

Incomptinence wrote:Why not have a system where meeting a req like the 15 hour threshold just makes you first pick ahead of less experienced players.

If no hughly experienced player wants to play the head role the department just shrunk by one as it currently stands.

The PR had 15, but the server is at 5 last I checked. 15 was insane.