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I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:23 pm
by Bombadil
Can we make this a bannable offense already? Having no reason to call the shuttle and jsut calling it and giving no reason to the crew is fucking bullshit. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE SHORT ROUNDS. No one wants to repair the station because 90% of captains are shit and will jsut call the shuttle rather than making drones or getting engineering to repair the station. But a lot of the time it's just bored captains ending the shift because they want to roll antag even though the station is functioning perfectly fine
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:29 pm
by feem
I generally centcomm recall when I see this, and depending on how egregious it is, or how frequently they do it, I give out brain damage.
If that doesn't convince them to stop then they get a talking to.
I know this is kind of harsh, but you don't get to call the shuttle when there's nothing wrong with the station because you didn't roll antag.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:42 pm
by Togopal
Captains cant roll antag
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:47 pm
by Armhulen
Togopal wrote:Captains cant roll antag
if you roll antag it makes your job not captain, so they can roll antag but if they didn't get it they become captain
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:47 pm
by BeeSting12
yeah thats why i roll for captain and if i get it i know i didnt roll antag so i need to call it ASAP
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:24 pm
by feem
Togopal wrote:Captains cant roll antag
Most of the time the person calling the shuttle because "I'M BORED" isn't a captain.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:25 pm
by SaveVatznick
Actually, it's the janitor's fault most of the time. The station feels really shitty when it's just fucken filthy everywhere. Yeah, you may clean the floors up from all the blood and grease, but what about all the actual items and trash that are just left everywhere? The station often feels more ruined than it is because all the lights are broken, and there's random shit strewn everywhere. Blame the janitor.
Also, yes, please smite the "Well we killed all the bad guys, time to go home" command players.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:54 pm
by Atlanta-Ned
SaveVatznick wrote:Actually, it's the janitor's fault most of the time. The station feels really shitty when it's just fucken filthy everywhere. Yeah, you may clean the floors up from all the blood and grease, but what about all the actual items and trash that are just left everywhere? The station often feels more ruined than it is because all the lights are broken, and there's random shit strewn everywhere. Blame the janitor.
Also, yes, please smite the "Well we killed all the bad guys, time to go home" command players.
Janitor was spaced 20 minutes ago for wetting floors without putting down signs.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:19 pm
by CPTANT
Sure, if we remove extended first.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:42 pm
by feem
CPTANT wrote:Sure, if we remove extended first.
In my experience calling the shuttle because someone is bored after two hours is fine, calling the shuttle because someone is bored after 30 minutes is not.
And the latter happens much more frequently.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:42 pm
by Slignerd
The problem is that station feels like a mess quickly, and keeping things nice and tidy is tedious, in some cases outright impossible.
It's easier to press the reset button than to clean up all the oil and blood, repair all the windows, juggle between APC, airlock, fire alarm and air alarm electronics, correct others' mistakes when they place a normal window in place of a reinforced one, and weep helplessly whenever you realize that you can't restore hazard marking in Engineering or Cargo or white tiles in Medbay.
Most players don't really care much for the state of the station, and for those who do, the state of the station degrades quickly.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:57 pm
by captain sawrge
This is a code problem and until there is a reason not to call the shuttle added to the game this will persist forever regardless of policy or admin enforcement.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:58 pm
by captain sawrge
I'm sure in theory you could just get the admin team aggressively punishing this kind of behavior until it's stomped out but then what you get in return is lots of rounds fizzling out because everyone is bored and sick of the current round or people trying to make things happen by getting violent and provoking chaos and then they get banned and the cycle repeats
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:08 pm
by feem
captain sawrge wrote:... people trying to make things happen by getting violent and provoking chaos ...
To a very great extent this is the point of the game. We have an extensive repair system and a role based entirely around it, for example.
When you roll the round over every 30 minutes it's a lot harder to establish those emergent gameplay moments that tend to keep a lot of people coming back. There are some people who get off on murderboning every time they can, but I'd argue that a big percentage of the people who play the game quietly are doing so for the more unique parts of the game, and those are largely based around having enough time for those emergent properties to come out, but not necessarily enough time to exhaust them.
While I agree with you that policy isn't going to fix this, I'd argue that policy _alone_ will not fix this. It may be better to promote more GM involvement (making the game more interesting so people don't get bored, but still allowing players to actually have a game to play for long enough that they feel satisfied) rather than ban people, and to incrementally change gameplay to still allow combat to a great extent but to illuminate and create more opportunities for unique interactions.
In neither of those circumstances is a 30-minute round conducive to more than a small set of people having a good time.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:29 pm
by captain sawrge
I tried to write a long reply to you feem but I wasnt happy with it but it boiled down to there's no mechanical incentive to keep rounds going and only players that go out of their way to do so will form any sort of attachment to a current round. These kinds of players are typically punished for this because an antag can undo all of the effort they've put into a round very easily
Admins can try to be more active as GMs but we can't have admins on 24/7 to do this and many admin events tend to be hit or miss in terms of actually being engaging for the majority of the players online
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:30 pm
by EagleWiz
Part of it is just that things get really borring for most departments if say it's 40 minutes in, the round type used to be blood cult but they all died. What's medbay sec and engi going to do? No ones breaking things and powers stable, people don't need medical help, and there's probably not much crime going on.
Edit: on the subject of admin events solving this - basically admin events when there's not many active antags/pseudo-antag-tiders/general chaos good, admin events when there's already all sorts of stuff going on or it's roundstart bad
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:30 pm
by Lumbermancer
Slignerd wrote:The problem is that station feels like a mess quickly, and keeping things nice and tidy is tedious, in some cases outright impossible.
It's easier to press the reset button than to clean up all the oil and blood, repair all the windows, juggle between APC, airlock, fire alarm and air alarm electronics, correct others' mistakes when they place a normal window in place of a reinforced one, and weep helplessly whenever you realize that you can't restore hazard marking in Engineering or Cargo or white tiles in Medbay.
Most players don't really care much for the state of the station, and for those who do, the state of the station degrades quickly.
This person is correct. It's the same shit i've been talking about for months now. Do not attack the effect but rather cause.
The destruction is too easy to come by and hard/tedious to repair. I suggested few solutions before.
The antags are too destructive for the sake of destruction itself, just because they can. Lel i'm traitor let me emag everything and open some n2o containers. Lel we are lings lets all cooperate to kill everyone. Lel I'm Revenant I will zap a guy with lights over and over then break windows to space in escape. Lel I'm cultist...well actually as much as I hate cult they are least destructive.
Make tgstation
a paranoia-laden roleplaying game again.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:24 pm
by onleavedontatme
Paranoia is exhausting though, so paranoia makes rounds shorter. The people who control the shuttle have no game defined role other than kill or be killed, so they are constantly on edge and looking out for the badguys.
If you add boredom on top of stress and they realize they spent the past half hour walking in circles worrying about something that never happened of course they're going to want to end the round.
Super high action rounds with a ton of stress will obviously make them call early as well.
50 minutes is honestly a long time spent on a single round of a videogame, especially one like SS13 where you can end up with a ton of responsibility to the 70 other strangers online, a mystery number of which are hostile (this is before you even get into the added stress of dealing with admins)
Also what sawrge said, there is not a reward for staying and suffering longer for the roles that control the shuttle
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:31 pm
by onleavedontatme
Easier than redoing the game to have an end goal in mind though would be to add some way for security/heads to leave the station early and count as their character surviving and reopen the slot so they can be replaced so they can quit without forcing the entire server to
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:23 am
by bandit
basically every RP server has cryo-pods for that purpose, it wouldn't be difficult to port
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:36 am
by RandomMarine
feem wrote:We have an extensive repair system and a role based entirely around it, for example.
One round comes to mind where medbay was maxcapped, I was a drone at the time and quickly RCD'd up the holes and began patching up the walls and cabling while other drones and engineers began replacing the air and the machines.
Thing is shuttle was called shortly after repairs begun, and it passed the 5-minute point of no return by the time that the air was replaced and medbay was powered again.
I would bet money that most of the engineers involved in that learned that it's better to not bother when that's their reward.
It's a vicious cycle, engineers don't want to fix shit because the shuttle's going to be called regardless, and a lot of players' first thought when a department explodes is to call the shuttle because they no longer expect engineers to fix it.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:40 am
by PKPenguin321
I think this is absolutely case by case depending on the round, and in some specific cases calling it early is justified, but things like traitor or ling on highpop where the station is relatively undamaged definitely shouldn't be ending too early.
captain sawrge wrote:This is a code problem and until there is a reason not to call the shuttle added to the game this will persist forever regardless of policy or admin enforcement.
Agreed
If you guys want a code solution look to
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/27305
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:44 am
by EagleWiz
PKPenguin321 wrote:I think this is absolutely case by case depending on the round, and in some specific cases calling it early is justified, but things like traitor or ling on highpop where the station is relatively undamaged definitely shouldn't be ending too early.
I agree with you in the traitor scenario, but ling? You don't call it early your going to regret it when a ling murders you, steals your identity, and runs around trying to make sure every ling on the station gets their objective complete for the next 40 minutes while some other ling runs around killing off 90% of the crew with no resistance because he looks like the HoS.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:46 am
by PKPenguin321
EagleWiz wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:I think this is absolutely case by case depending on the round, and in some specific cases calling it early is justified, but things like traitor or ling on highpop where the station is relatively undamaged definitely shouldn't be ending too early.
I agree with you in the traitor scenario, but ling? You don't call it early your going to regret it when a ling murders you, steals your identity, and runs around trying to make sure every ling on the station gets their objective complete for the next 40 minutes while some other ling runs around killing off 90% of the crew with no resistance because he looks like the HoS.
This thread is not about your personal grievances with lings. If you truly believe that just having changelings is a big enough threat that the shuttle should be called immediately, go ahead, but you're part of the problem as described in the OP.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:15 am
by Hathkar
RandomMarine wrote:feem wrote:We have an extensive repair system and a role based entirely around it, for example.
One round comes to mind where medbay was maxcapped, I was a drone at the time and quickly RCD'd up the holes and began patching up the walls and cabling while other drones and engineers began replacing the air and the machines.
Thing is shuttle was called shortly after repairs begun, and it passed the 5-minute point of no return by the time that the air was replaced and medbay was powered again.
I would bet money that most of the engineers involved in that learned that it's better to not bother when that's their reward.
It's a vicious cycle, engineers don't want to fix shit because the shuttle's going to be called regardless, and a lot of players' first thought when a department explodes is to call the shuttle because they no longer expect engineers to fix it.
This, a thousand times this. That kind of shit is why I completely stopped playing engineering. Nothing crushes your soul quite like finishing repairs on a department to have the shuttle called right as you finish.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:15 am
by EagleWiz
PKPenguin321 wrote:
This thread is not about your personal grievances with lings. If you truly believe that just having changelings is a big enough threat that the shuttle should be called immediately, go ahead, but you're part of the problem as described in the OP.
This thread is about the problem of people calling the shuttle early.
Lets look at the game modes and why people might call the shuttle early.
Most common game mode: Traitorchan, 24%. A game mode which can frequently have antags be the authority that determines if the shuttle is called or not, and that frequently use that authority to ensure a long and not fun round with much death. Early calling might be an issue here, but changelings are not fun and I cant blame anyone for wanting to avoid it turning into an hour and a half long ling murderbone round.
Next most common mode: Traitor, 18%. The best game mode, although it can get boring if all the traitors die or aren't doing anything and there's no events. I agree that early calling is an issue here.
Third most common mode: Nuclear, 16%. Early calling is the crew win condition. The reason people call the shuttle here should be obvious. I'm pretty sure its intended to be a short round anyway.
Number 4 is a tie: Wizard, 12%. Early calling doesn't usually happen in wizard rounds although YMMV. Also the round usually ends with either the wizard dying later in the round (crew auto win!) the wizard killing a bunch of people and calling the shuttle (wizard win!) or the wizard dying early and a bunch of people getting traitor
The other one is Revolution, 12%. Early calling happens here, but its usually either people who don't understand how revolution works (because it doesn't end the round) or people using it to lure people who don't understand how revolution works to one place. This might be a bit of an issue, but its hardly round ending.
Next we have the cults - Old Trusty Blood Cult at 8%. A round where the crew will almost always win (as in the antags are pretty much guaranteed redtext) if you call early, and where the antags have a pretty decent chance of killing everyone on-board (and turning them into cult monsters) if you don't call early. This just looks was a symptom of people playing to win in a not-very-sportsmanlike way as part of the server sliding closer and closer to zero-RP.
Then of course theres Clock Cult, also at 8%. See Revolution
And finally secret extended at 2% which is rather rare and all sorts of boring unless theres events. And half the time the events are awful. An obvious outlier.
So yes, I think my personal grievances with lings might be relevant. Also the part where you win by calling early in 1 in 4 games might be a factor. I mean, if people playing SS13 just to win is an actual issue that the headmins want to try to deal with I'm not going to complain, but I somehow doubt this.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:53 am
by cedarbridge
This is another "code solutions are added to make rounds shorter/completed faster thus the rounds end faster because people get bored" episode.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:01 am
by ShadowDimentio
Play head and recall then. Be the change you want to see.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:44 am
by Lumbermancer
RandomMarine wrote:I would bet money that most of the engineers involved in that learned that it's better to not bother when that's their reward.
Because it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Engineers won't fix because shuttle will be called, shuttle is called because engineers won't fix.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:19 am
by XDTM
The cryo pod idea seemed the most realistic, let people get out of the round in a legit way if they're tired, bonus points if they can still come back in case the round lasts a lot longer than they thought.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:40 am
by Dax Dupont
I think auto recall should be reenabled
At the same time I think there should be an autocall if most of the crew is dead because it's really painful when the round gets dragged out while 70% of the players can't do anything.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:49 am
by kevinz000
SaveVatznick wrote:Actually, it's the janitor's fault most of the time. The station feels really shitty when it's just fucken filthy everywhere. Yeah, you may clean the floors up from all the blood and grease, but what about all the actual items and trash that are just left everywhere? The station often feels more ruined than it is because all the lights are broken, and there's random shit strewn everywhere. Blame the janitor.
Also, yes, please smite the "Well we killed all the bad guys, time to go home" command players.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:53 am
by DemonFiren
garbage collection is a pita, though
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:22 pm
by Lazengann
I like being janitor. The trick is to kill and space the mess makers
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:24 pm
by DemonFiren
adds a new meaning to "take out the trash", doesn't it
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:45 pm
by Lumbermancer
I played the janitor back when there was no lizards, and you had to ask admin to make you one. It was fun to rp and socialize. These days? You gonna get killed because people can't see the signs.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:13 pm
by cedarbridge
Lumbermancer wrote:I played the janitor back when there was no lizards, and you had to ask admin to make you one. It was fun to rp and socialize. These days? You gonna get killed because people can't see the signs.
Runspeed was a mistake
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:23 pm
by onleavedontatme
What the hell does runspeed have to do with anything its far slower than when fabled time period in which we had a utopia of 2 hour rounds of RP
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:24 pm
by SpaceInaba
i think they're referring to everybody running like usain bolt = slip on water before they react even though signs are out
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:28 pm
by onleavedontatme
Yeah but we used to move even faster and slip even more and get stunned even longer
Maybe my brain is smooth and this chain of janitor replies is some sort of extended joke but these threads always get derailed by nebulous "back in my day" complaints.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:29 pm
by SpaceInaba
lets just force the station to build their own escape shuttle every single round to arbitrarily extend it
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:30 pm
by onleavedontatme
Harsh but fair
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:33 pm
by DemonFiren
That actually sounds like it could be really fucking fun.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:10 pm
by D&B
Port wall rot that creates leprosy if you walk through it and add a tool for the janitors to clean it exclusively so they stop being killed.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:53 pm
by Lumbermancer
SpaceInaba wrote:lets just force the station to build their own escape shuttle every single round to arbitrarily extend it
Or, make the station don't reset between rounds, unless allow certain level of destruction.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:05 pm
by BeeSting12
The people in charge of calling the shuttle are stressed enough that they want the round to end and reset, likely due to the round's antags but if not that, due to the fact that those who didn't get antag want to shit things up so the round will restart. I don't actually see much "I'm bored shuttle call" stuff that doesn't get recalled but I might not be paying attention.
I think cryo pods could help with that issue. I don't think we need a policy against it, admins will already tell people off for dumb shuttle calls if it becomes too much of a thing, same for rolling for antag.
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:24 pm
by oranges
fortnite round length : 20 minutes
pubg round length :35 minutes
tg round length: 40-50 minutes
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:26 pm
by cedarbridge
oranges wrote:fortnite round length : 20 minutes
pubg round length :35 minutes
tg round length: 40-50 minutes
Is that a typical round or does that count in the aussie hours 3-4 hour rounds?
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:33 am
by D&B
oranges wrote:fortnite round length : 20 minutes
pubg round length :35 minutes
tg round length: 40-50 minutes
Does this take in account the half an hour it takes Australians to connect to servers?
Re: I'm so fucking sick of "I BORED" let's call the shuttle
Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:20 pm
by Bombadil
oranges wrote:fortnite round length : 20 minutes
pubg round length :35 minutes
tg round length: 40-50 minutes
Reminder: None of those games have anything other than KILL PEOPLE as an objective. I suppose fortnite has the base building stuff but beyond that