/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Lately I've seen a rise of golem related posts, from ban appeals to policy questions. This is not to be confused with Shezzas golem retaliation post.

I want a new precedent set to banish golems to lavaland short of some form of retaliation.


Free Golems are the most annoying (and abusable) ghost role in my opinion. I've had too many rounds ruined because some dumbass golems come aboard in decked out mechs and start validing/became valid themselves. Player incompetence and attitude has made them have a negative impact on the round 9 times out of 10, and they are a nightmare to deal with as sec.

Looking at the wiki, we get the description: These golems, should they wake up from hibernation, will be effectively free of any master, and will usually mine and eventually build their own R&D department; they are peaceful unless disturbed. Sure you can reason that the golems want to get to the station for salvation, but I have a counter argument. Just because they were set free doesn't mean they are care free. They lived in a life of subjugation until being set free by the liberator. Wouldn't they have an inherent disdain and fear for the human race? If this is true making a teleporter ASAP is not the logical conclusion they would make. They would use the endless materials on lavaland to rebuild their ship and go on their way.

Another issue I have with golems is their tendency to make 8 AI's with the only law of: "yeah go do whatever" but that's for another day.

There's a quite literal difference between the clown being called on to war and the golems, that being the fact that a clown's life is not forefit the moment they're noticed. A golem's however, is once again up to kill the moment someone decides that they don't wanna stare at the rockman anymore.

So as you could imagine, having a role whose escalation policy ensures that people can, without worry, murder everything about you and those around you, get called against for war, you can kinda see why they'd jump to the act of launching against the crew

I have some issues with that because golems are typically still protected by rule 1 (though in a much more lax manner) and you could make the same argument for mutant races.
However I get the idea which is why I'm not contesting the admin ruling, but that kind of policy is very much responsible for attracting all kinds of shitty players into playing golem because as soon as they get provoked, all gloves are off. If golems were concerned with getting killed on a whim they would avoid conflict and contact with the station, which they definitely don't. They never try to de-escalate because they have the opportunity to self-antag and freely fuck shit up with mechs.

My point still stands, when asked why they attacked the station despite nobody actually attacking them one of the reasons given was "we weren't going to sit around waiting to get bombed first". Anybody would have gotten banned for something like that but not a ghost role with "peaceful" in their flavor text, how does that make any sense?

From what I understand, golems are only a problem if you let them become one, i.e. if you let them thrive and prosper long enough to acquire advanced weapons like bohs and mechs. AFAIK golem ship has a GPS, so you can just beeline for it at roundstart, kill everyone there while they're weak and gibtonite bomb it to ashes. I know miners used to do that without getting bwoinked, if golems are becoming a problem maybe it's time to start doing that again.

Grazyn wrote:AFAIK golem ship has a GPS

Nah

Denton wrote:

Grazyn wrote:AFAIK golem ship has a GPS

Nah

Yeah sadly not anymore, it having it was originally teleporter beacon and was a band aid fix so the jaunters could work for golems and not send them to the station, that was fixed, and the beacon was removed.

The beacon was handy though, and it made building a lavaland base much easier and more fun as you could drop the aux base outside the golem ship and have fun with the golems.

Giving them a GPS in the walls that they cant remove would be a neat code addition, as it would means golems being shitlords could easily be found even without a teleporter. They dont have any reason NOT to have a GPS, as they arent hiding on lavaland, just living there.

>golems being shitlords
you mean any golems because lmao valids xd

Dr_bee wrote:

Denton wrote:

Grazyn wrote:AFAIK golem ship has a GPS

Nah

Yeah sadly not anymore, it having it was originally teleporter beacon and was a band aid fix so the jaunters could work for golems and not send them to the station, that was fixed, and the beacon was removed.

The beacon was handy though, and it made building a lavaland base much easier and more fun as you could drop the aux base outside the golem ship and have fun with the golems.

Giving them a GPS in the walls that they cant remove would be a neat code addition, as it would means golems being shitlords could easily be found even without a teleporter. They dont have any reason NOT to have a GPS, as they arent hiding on lavaland, just living there.

Well one could argue that the ruin gives you access to an omnilathe board, a coveted treasure for scientists and the GPS would make it too easy to obtain it. It's sad they don't have it anymore though.

Grazyn wrote:

Dr_bee wrote:

Denton wrote:

Grazyn wrote:AFAIK golem ship has a GPS

Nah

Yeah sadly not anymore, it having it was originally teleporter beacon and was a band aid fix so the jaunters could work for golems and not send them to the station, that was fixed, and the beacon was removed.

The beacon was handy though, and it made building a lavaland base much easier and more fun as you could drop the aux base outside the golem ship and have fun with the golems.

Giving them a GPS in the walls that they cant remove would be a neat code addition, as it would means golems being shitlords could easily be found even without a teleporter. They dont have any reason NOT to have a GPS, as they arent hiding on lavaland, just living there.

Well one could argue that the ruin gives you access to an omnilathe board, a coveted treasure for scientists and the GPS would make it too easy to obtain it. It's sad they don't have it anymore though.

Well it would still require 2000 mining points, plus traveling to the golem ship which can often times be across the map from the mining station. Compared to other mining loot it is of comparable power, and mostly benefits the rest of the station and not just the miner.

So it would be something to consider but not rule out, worst case you can limit the golem ship dispenser to one liberator's legacy if it is that concerning.

The clown also has escalation protections. If the captain ordered the clown's death for absolutely no reason then it would be considered non-antag murder. Ghost roles are valid all the time.

That being said, we really should come up with some way to tone down the violence between the crew and the golems so it's not so wanton.

I wouldn't be opposed to having golems be subject to normal escalation. Miners can't just up and shoot them for existing so there would have to be something significant going on to lead to golem vs station conflict on a large scale.

I have a feeling that doing anything like that with a ghost role isn't going to fly though. Honestly maybe we should reconsider exactly what we define golems as. They're a ghost role by definition, but they definitely can and do impact the round from time to time which is against the general idea of ghost roles. GOLEM AS ROUND START JOB 2018. Make new golem shells cost the same level of tech and materials as positronic brains so they're no more of a free life than posi brains.

This thread is going no where fast and everyone is just repeating points made earlier.

So to reiterate what seems to be the best solution is just a code bar.

Cobby wrote:The point of free golems was a science tutorial, you’re welcome to pull up the GitHub pr if you’d like.

The issue here is that science changed to not require a tutorial, but the ruin remained as is. That is not an admin issue, that is a code one. I’m not looking to bandaid secondary issues (people’s ability to exploit the as-is ruin) caused by this one.

There is nothing wrong with a code solution to admin problems. I’d rather bar things we ban for outright before people “emergent gaming” themselves to not be able to play at all. Don’t take it as we’re trying to suck the fun out of ghost roles.

I rest my case can admins lock this?

Just take away their teleporters and AIs and they can still war effectively without being deep striking unabomberssssssssssss

Did you know that this is still a problem and we just had another round where golems kept BoH suicide bombing the station, respawn and not even pretend not to retain knowledge from the previous lives?

Just in case you wondered what it looks like when most of the station gets BoH bombed

according to imsxz there were 11 boh bombs. Can we fucking remove golems already? They are pure shit and never amount to any good.

I ded plz remove the game

The station declared war on golems because their own clown BOH bombed the brig.

Frankly seems like more of an issue with BOH bombs. Do we really need something this destructive and easy to get?

Zarniwoop wrote:I ded plz remove the game

The station declared war on golems because their own clown BOH bombed the brig.

Frankly seems like more of an issue with BOH bombs. Do we really need something this destructive and easy to get?

the station declared war on golems so I'm allowed to ignore metagaming rules and use my free respawns to keep killing people

ITT: people start crying for golems to be removed, while also believing that lava dwarfs will ever be a thing again.

All (sad) jokes aside, the entire situation that happened to cause this was cause of a clown. A single clown who non-antagly popped a BoH, and people jumped to conclusions that the golems present had to die. Please for the love of god stop using this situation as an example of "golems always being shit."

And as it's been said multiple times, this is a code issue. Nothing will come of this while you continue to screech for gps beacons or utter removals despite golems being one of the few good ghost roles, when policy discussion had little power in regards to that.

It may well be a code issue at the root but this situation being ruled an IC issue is completely ignoring the dozens of times that golems spawned in, started printing weapons and teleported out of the ship without saying a word

I've seen people getting ghost role banned for making beelines for the mining station as ash lizards, why do people abusing golems keep getting free passes for blatant shit like this?

RogueSteampunker wrote:ITT: people start crying for golems to be removed, while also believing that lava dwarfs will ever be a thing again.

All (sad) jokes aside, the entire situation that happened to cause this was cause of a clown. A single clown who non-antagly popped a BoH, and people jumped to conclusions that the golems present had to die. Please for the love of god stop using this situation as an example of "golems always being shit."

And as it's been said multiple times, this is a code issue. Nothing will come of this while you continue to screech for gps beacons or utter removals despite golems being one of the few good ghost roles, when policy discussion had little power in regards to that.

lol.

the captain saying "we're at war with golems" and you responding by boh bombing innocents 10 times is like if the kid at your school gave you a wedgie so you made the columbine look like a fucking joke

If you made the mining shuttle just a pod with no controls, requiring someone in Supply like the QM to hit the switches and tell it to go up instantly/on a timer would do something for quarantining lavaland away from the station like it properly needs to be. You could put a card slot for the miners IDs, where they can use instead so many points to get it to take off.

This is not meant to 'lock' the miners out or be costly but more just a easy method to verify who is using the pod, and a working miner can easily cover his tithe on moving the shuttle up, proving mostly that he's working, is Human, and has his ID. QMs console side could alter these settings, negating the ID bypass for more security or increasing/lowering the miner point tithe.

Remove golem ruin so we can have more hermits anyway.

confused rock wrote:the captain saying "we're at war with golems" and you responding by boh bombing innocents 10 times is like if the kid at your school gave you a wedgie so you made the columbine look like a fucking joke

From an RP standpoint, that would be like the president of the US saying we are at war with Canada.

Captain has the authority to do that and the golems have every reason to take him seriously. Granted BOH bombing and abusing the golem respawn feature is lame as hell.

confused rock wrote:the captain saying "we're at war with golems" and you responding by boh bombing innocents 10 times is like if the kid at your school gave you a wedgie so you made the columbine look like a fucking joke

Still makes me laugh.

Gamarr wrote:If you made the mining shuttle just a pod with no controls, requiring someone in Supply like the QM to hit the switches and tell it to go up instantly/on a timer would do something for quarantining lavaland away from the station like it properly needs to be. You could put a card slot for the miners IDs, where they can use instead so many points to get it to take off.

This is not meant to 'lock' the miners out or be costly but more just a easy method to verify who is using the pod, and a working miner can easily cover his tithe on moving the shuttle up, proving mostly that he's working, is Human, and has his ID. QMs console side could alter these settings, negating the ID bypass for more security or increasing/lowering the miner point tithe.

Remove golem ruin so we can have more hermits anyway.

Pretty neat idea. Honestly just set them to take off when an ashstorm starts and ends. It might enforce miners getting mats back on time since they don't wanna get stuck waiting. The forcing take off with points is a good idea too, and if station/shuttle gets a timer, it'll help with planning attacks and what not.

Although, this makes it super easy for xenos to get to the station. Maybe make it so that if alien creatures are detected (not ash lizards) the shuttle refuses to take off unless forced by points?

Just ban anyone who spawns and wordlessly beelines for guns/tele

lol just ban them its so easy idk what u shitmins are complaining about xd

Arianya wrote:Just take away their teleporters and AIs and they can still war effectively without being deep striking unabomberssssssssssss

I remain as wise as Nostradamus.

That said we don't need two threads about free golems running simultaneously and this one is older so let's funnel everything into one thread.