/tg/Station 13

This really shouldn't require a thread, but I've run into it twice.

The science department is expected to be making bombs right?

Should security be able to just kill people making bombs because it's a conversion roundtype?
I've run into this twice where security killed people working in toxins during a conversion round without making any attempt to figure out which side the dead person was on.

Nabski wrote:This really shouldn't require a thread, but I've run into it twice.

The science department is expected to be making bombs right?

Should security be able to just kill people making bombs because it's a conversion roundtype?
I've run into this twice where security killed people working in toxins during a conversion round without making any attempt to figure out which side the dead person was on.

If it's a scientist making bombs in toxins: not valid
If it's a non-scientist making bombs: potentially valid depending on the situation IE: sec overrun by revs etc
if the scientist is taking bombs outside of science during revs: valid as salid

If you're making bombs during a violent revolution then you're not doing your duty of keeping risk as low as possible which opens you up to punishment up to and including execution.

It's kinda established that during rev/etc security can preemptively kill everyone on the station in self defense because putting effort into resolving situations normally is risky, so making bombs would fall under that too.

Disclaimer: Not a ruling, personal opinion.

Making bombs is an expected duty of Toxins.

Security may object to them being made, and if there's reason to suspect a crewmember (such as their own suspicious behaviour, known revolutionaries/cultists/etc), arrest them for searching/deconversion/implanting.

They cannot jump to execution unless the person is reasonably suspected of bombing the station, otherwise eligible for execution or rarely where the station appears to be in dire straits during a conversion round (huge swathes of the crew are revs/cult, station is in anarchy, person has good reason to believe they are last man standing, etc). People should generally not be using the last one to defend themselves when bwoinked, since this is a rule 0 kind of territory.

I would have thought killing scientists in toxins was unacceptable even before it had the actual use of gaining tech web points

However from a sec player's point of view non-scientists in there without the RDs permission are almost exclusively up to no good.

Do we not consider Toxins a high security area? I could have sworn we did.

You dont have to kill the scientists, just burn down toxins itself. Or if you dont want to do the awesome thing you can be boring and just take all the TTVs.

It wouldnt stop canister bombs but not very many people know how to make those.

Really sec shouldnt kill people for just making bombs.

Killing someone for doing their job with no warnings provided is shit.

The round being X is not an excuse to do such, but is a justification of shutting the job down and then kill people after who continue to work on it. Key being you make it clear it’s no man’s land first.

Yeah I agree with Cobby now

During a violent revolution it doesn’t matter who you are, you’ll be getting some head taps regardless. A high risk job like toxins means security MUST ensure they aren’t rogue, for obvious reasons.

Correct.

The difference here is that killing isn't ensuring they aren't rogue, it's assuming they are.

Arianya wrote:Do we not consider Toxins a high security area? I could have sworn we did.

It's "high security" in that it's on the list of things the AI isn't allowed to speed bolt roundstart to "prevent harm".

If I'm sec and a conversion mode is getting out of hands I sometimes shut down toxins, but I try not to do that unless things are really getting out of control. Generally I wouldn't do that unless the Captain agrees or things are so out of control we're at martial law. I don't ever run in and wordlessly kill them though, that's super shitty. I go in and tell them what's up and say we have to confiscate the TTVs due to the situation. Sometimes they're antags and run off or suicide a hole into toxins but hey, you die in this game and even if I get blown up if that stops antags from distributing maxcaps around it was worth it.

Securing dangerous areas and shutting them down during a revolution just seems like standard practice and if it's not, then security/station loses for very obvious reasoning.
Comes down to how aware security is and the scientists; the sci guys know, obviously, about the revolution? They're still making bombs? They're dangerous intentionally or via incompetence because said bombs are now a tool to be used against security. Toxins should be shut down with the prejudice of speakeasies during Prohibition. Toxins should also be dismantled as best as can be during this time.

Toxins is not the only department like this really and several others are vastly damaging if ignored. Virology and genetics should also be entirely shut down if being staffed by non-implanted medical personnel and any refusal means incarceration or execution to save time on part of the security force. Any resistance means incompetence or bad intentions on part of the staff as in the toxins situation above.


You don't want Draconian responses to a bad situation then fix the shitty mode where Assholeism is spread like a fucking touch disease via flash. Several departments if left alone can make incredibly disastrous problems and not letting security do this just means nobody plays security because their hands are tied constantly in the pursuit of their autism in viro, genetics, toxins, etc.

Cobby wrote:Killing someone for doing their job with no warnings provided is shit.

The round being X is not an excuse to do such, but is a justification of shutting the job down and then kill people after who continue to work on it. Key being you make it clear it’s no man’s land first.

Ignorance is no excuse during catastrophes. If it's obvious over comms things are bad and they still sit there, pumping out bombs 'just because', then they are a danger to themselves, the station, and everybody else and thusly deserve immediate handling by security for reasons I've stated above and whatever sentence they get, which is most likely implanting if lucky or a summary execution.

I don't think we want to encourage security to just execute half the departments solely because there's a revolution and the department is capable of fucking the station up...

LOL REVS
--Kill anyone in toxins
--Kill chemists
--Kill Atmos Techs
--Kill Viro
--Kill Geneticists(this is ok if it's Gene Ball and he's moving)
--Kill Botany - dude, botanists can fuck up the station worse than any of the above except maybe toxins. I'd rather patch a hull breach than deal with 500 bananas that explode and set you on fire when you slip on them.

Gamarr wrote:

Cobby wrote:Killing someone for doing their job with no warnings provided is shit.

The round being X is not an excuse to do such, but is a justification of shutting the job down and then kill people after who continue to work on it. Key being you make it clear it’s no man’s land first.

Ignorance is no excuse during catastrophes. If it's obvious over comms things are bad and they still sit there, pumping out bombs 'just because', then they are a danger to themselves, the station, and everybody else and thusly deserve immediate handling by security for reasons I've stated above and whatever sentence they get, which is most likely implanting if lucky or a summary execution.

If you're already entering toxins to arrest/kill/etc. the guy I don't see why you can't just take all the TTVs and open the space-vents to nullify their progress, then tell them and everyone else to fuck off from toxins or die. AFTERWARDS it's open season.

The quite frankly stupid part about this is just killing the player doesn't stop anything since someone else can just pickup where they left off. I'm all for lax in conversion rounds but if sec players are going to abuse it to basically self-antag under the guise of self-defense because they refuse to address any alternative but "they might be antag so I am to assume they are", then it's going to cause some reactions I don't think any sec player will particularly like.

The Sec brigade really don't want to defend this sort of behavior or else you're going to find more of a reason to avoid the job.

Lettuce be clear that we're talking about people whose ONLY offense is doing toxins during a conversion mode. If someone is doing something else that would prompt you to think they're rev then they start making bombs, I could obviously see a rationalization there.

CosmicScientist wrote:

CosmicScientist wrote:Does this not fall under normal sec nonrev/unconfirmed rev execution rules?

Pretty much yeah.

If sec is pressured and i genuinely cant get to the brig/there are no implants i execute everyone in toxins because it's genuinely an unfightable force and the only other option you have outside of preemptive murder is bending over and accepting your death

People see it as doing their job when in reality it's more like "A roboticist built a durand and is kitting it out with a laser cannon and other lethal upgrades. They aren't implanted and security hasn't checked science/people called out revolutioanries in science. Should I kill them?" which would result in a general yes if you cannot detain them normally and safely. The entirety of the job of science does not center around toxins, nor does the job of robotics around combat mechs. You shouldn't treat this as "A chemist is sitting in chemistry, can i kill them?" as the entirety of the job of chemistry centers around the chem dispenser and the risk and reward are equal from leaving chemitry untouched. Toxins has no use to non-revolutionaries during a revolution round. That also ignores that an explosive is an incredibly powerful weapon, and one that can level half if not almost all of the brig is as dangerous if not more dangerous than a combat mech or anything mining could bring to the station. If the station and situation are under control it may not be necessary but if hostiles are unconfirmed and it's a situation of risking losing the brig and having people die or killing one scientist and eventually cloning them the latter is the more ethical and logical option and punishing people for preserving themselves in that sense.

If i hear someone try to accuse me of playing the game like a tdm game i will laugh at them for being retarded and then also cry because conversion gamemodes ARE team deathmatch modes with a coat of fluff and paint

karp wrote:If the station and situation are under control it may not be necessary but if hostiles are unconfirmed and it's a situation of risking losing the brig and having people die or killing one scientist and eventually cloning them the former is the more ethical and logical option

Do you mean the latter?

But we’re not talking about the point of no return, we already have policy that enables you to horizontal everyone.

If Sec still has a foothold they can easily tell people to shut down toxins (from the brig actually) and then kill if people continue.

my brain is a peanut i wrote that half asleep thanks SRG

but what would you define as the point of no return is why I'm questioning it, I consider the point of no return to be around the point when the number of revolutionaries is completely unknown and you've had multiple incidents of revs killing people around the station. It may not be the the station being completely fucked but it's a snowballing scenario, an implanted person dying is not worth the same resource wise as a revolutionary.

That's my big issue with this as a whole, this can either be too heavy-handed preventing security from taking actions to protect themselves in incredibly obvious instances for a net return of protecting against an iffy scenario, or just restating what we already have now.

But as I said, you're treating it as if someone is killing a chemist for using their dispenser when the more realistic depiction would be a roboticist building a durand armed with guns without ever telling security or a chemist handing out grenades randomly when people know its a rev round. You have options to get away from the dangerous thing and it isn't your lone job in the first place unless security keeps quiet about it and kills people silently.

I would say the point of no return is when they fear leaving brig/cargo because they're going to get killed.

If you're able to get to toxins, which in most maps is across the station, while not receiving any resistance from anyone including the person you're arresting, you probably can send them back to your base and deactivate toxins. People don't want to "lose" in terms of dying just as much as the security player, I don't think just because they start with guns the might makes right.

It's obviously very situational, I'd just prefer is security erred on the side of caution and nonlethality if able.

"I consider the point of no return to be around the point when the number of revolutionaries is completely unknown and you've had multiple incidents of revs killing people around the station"

This is a stupid and useless definition of 'the point of no return'. What you mean is "I think sec should be able to slaughter everyone the nanosec revolution is confirmed"

CosmicScientist wrote:Since this is becoming rev rules in general and I can't find anything on the wiki rules, and I assume everyone is arguing with their own headcanon on the rules, I'm commandeering this for a more solid question.

This is on the rev page on the wik:

Immediately ask them who converted them; that's one of your revheads.

When was this unspoken rule changed? Is the flavour text gone?

It's still there, people just fail and don't ask.

k i mean when you have absolutley zero idea how bad the situation is due to a stop in all info or communication on revs if that helps describe it better sry about the mistake

e.g. you hear people scream about revs in medical and science and all communication about revs/some heads go dark over comms which generally indicates that non revolutionaries and heads are converted or dead in those departments. A lack of people talking about the antagonist generally means that the antagonist converted them, or killed them.

And I disagree you can easily move about the station during revolution rounds as security officer or a revolutionary by using maintenance, I'm used to having to hide to deal with most revolutionaries and my experience is that almost nobody likes taking maintenance. If you turn your lights off and you know the map you can easily get to any department without anyone realizing you were ever there. I've had multiple rounds where security is getting steamrolled by revolutionaries and by abusing maintenance tunnels I end up succeeding in killing them off

I also rarely play security and I hate war crime security but the only reasonable answer to rampaging revolutionaries is rampaging security

The Rubicon in rev rounds are extremely, extremely fucking low. Problems start stemming from this because of tg speed and other factors that the rev population blooms very fast, very easily. There is almost no compartmentalization on these shitty stations, the movement is still insanely high to the detriment of almost everything, and this is exacerbated by a bloated population density between only a few depts and one giant shithole known as the main hallway.

Funnily I've not seen a single mention that killing here isn't even final. I mean if the argument is that the station doesn't spin out of control then there's nothing wrong beaning them and then cloning them while implants are en route, because Genetics will be totally safe, right?

Gamarr wrote:The Rubicon in rev rounds are extremely, extremely fucking low. Problems start stemming from this because of tg speed and other factors that the rev population blooms very fast, very easily. There is almost no compartmentalization on these shitty stations, the movement is still insanely high to the detriment of almost everything, and this is exacerbated by a bloated population density between only a few depts and one giant shithole known as the main hallway.

Funnily I've not seen a single mention that killing here isn't even final. I mean if the argument is that the station doesn't spin out of control then there's nothing wrong beaning them and then cloning them while implants are en route, because Genetics will be totally safe, right?

>be noninplanted nonrev
>dead in maint near robotics
>seen by rev
>ignored because nonrev
>seen by implanted
>ignored because nonimplanted so probably a rev

Gamarr wrote:The Rubicon in rev rounds are extremely, extremely fucking low. Problems start stemming from this because of tg speed and other factors that the rev population blooms very fast, very easily. There is almost no compartmentalization on these shitty stations, the movement is still insanely high to the detriment of almost everything, and this is exacerbated by a bloated population density between only a few depts and one giant shithole known as the main hallway.

Funnily I've not seen a single mention that killing here isn't even final. I mean if the argument is that the station doesn't spin out of control then there's nothing wrong beaning them and then cloning them while implants are en route, because Genetics will be totally safe, right?

Probably because when we look at silicons who get killed during these sort of rounds for following their laws in a way that conflicts with sec, we readily see that this whole notion of getting them back into the round really doesn't exist among the sec population (who would have thought).

I quite frankly believe veterans in this situation know when this "byond no return" point exists and simply play dumb because killing everyone not in the 100% trusted circle is the fastest way to secure a victory and end a conversion round, especially revs where it literally ends on the heads death. This is because they dislike conversion modes.

Let's be honest, if you don't go to get implanted when rev is confirmed, you either want to be converted or don't care about the round. Either way, you're at best a burden and at worst a threat to security.

Sec can't act before rev is confirmed and when it is, it already means multiple people/heads are dead and revs are everywhere. There's no "bar" to speak of, low or high, try go full implant/gulag before rev is definitely confirmed and you'll get a jobban. No, people screaming "REVS" on comms isn't enough.

Grazyn wrote:Let's be honest, if you don't go to get implanted when rev is confirmed, you either want to be converted or don't care about the round. Either way, you're at best a burden and at worst a threat to security.

Sec can't act before rev is confirmed and when it is, it already means multiple people/heads are dead and revs are everywhere. There's no "bar" to speak of, low or high, try go full implant/gulag before rev is definitely confirmed and you'll get a jobban. No, people screaming "REVS" on comms isn't enough.

Headrevs can see implants, so then you can't bait them into flashing you while you have glasses + a mask/face-covering hat

Grazyn wrote:Let's be honest, if you don't go to get implanted when rev is confirmed, you either want to be converted or don't care about the round. Either way, you're at best a burden and at worst a threat to security.

This seems fairly disingenuous to me. Lots of times by the time revs is confirmed the brig is a war zone. Personally when I hear that it's revs I try to find flash protection and simply go about my business otherwise, unless I'm implanted or playing Security.

subject217 wrote:

Grazyn wrote:Let's be honest, if you don't go to get implanted when rev is confirmed, you either want to be converted or don't care about the round. Either way, you're at best a burden and at worst a threat to security.

This seems fairly disingenuous to me. Lots of times by the time revs is confirmed the brig is a war zone. Personally when I hear that it's revs I try to find flash protection and simply go about my business otherwise, unless I'm implanted or playing Security.

^ This basically

>"Oh no revs time to get some implants because that's totally the only way to not be rev'ed"
>walk to sec
>get arrested
>tell them you're just looking for an implant
>they don't buy it and they're out of implants
>harmbaton to the face

i have never seen security kill anyone who willingly came to the brig to get implanted on the server

Whenever revolutionaries get screamed out is generally when they're converting people and not when they're attacking the brig so it isn't an immediate warzone so you can walk into the brig

And it isn't disingenuous as not actively helping one side in a conversion gamemode is likley to get both sides to think you're the enemy. Unless you run into a headrev and ask to be flashed or security to try to be implanted, both sides will think you're the enemy or at least suspicious and they are likley to kill you or at least capture you.

Conversion gamemodes snowball incredibly hard and I think I've said it but the point of no return depends round to round and it isn't static, due to the nature of how it works. Security doesn't have as many lives as the revolutionaries due to the nature of flash conversion vs implants so a security death could potentially be worth 2-10 revolutionaries dying. Unless you want to flat out prevent security from ever taking the initiative there is almost always no definable way for the point of no return that isn't just an indirect way of saying "Bend over and die"

Karp wrote:Unless you run into a headrev and ask to be flashed or security to try to be implanted, both sides will think you're the enemy or at least suspicious and they are likley to kill you or at least capture you.

if you're lucky communication can actually help with that, I once managed to turn cargo into a neutral zone with both implanted staff and revs working in relative harmony there

Security can't kill scientists for making bombs just because the gamemode is X. It's part of their job to make bombs, and that's a shitty TDM mindset if I've ever seen one.
This sort of behavior is even less justifiable now that science has been given more purpose to make bombs, as bomb testing gives RnD points.
This doesn't mean that bomb makers have complete immunity, though. If a scientist is taking bombs outside of toxins in what could be considered a "code red" scenario, security will be given more leeway with how they decide to deal with them.
The same thing applies to non-scientists breaking in to toxins and making bombs. This is usually treated as a pretty serious offense, and can be treated as even more serious during code red scenarios, i.e. revolutionaries are swarming security.
As a rule of thumb: don't jump to execution/killing unless the person is already eligible for it, you know they've bombed the station, or your situation is really dire. It should always be your last resort.