/tg/Station 13

making this thread to get this on record.

the "last policy thread" has notoriously wishy washy kor phaeron saying that they are always okay to use as non antag. however the rule that myself and many other people admins and players alike knew was that at some point this was backtracked on and you could use the contract but not the blood bottle. apparently though this isn't written down anywhere, so what do we think of this? I think that the blood bottle should just be removed from the code, to be honest.

What subject said

I've always thought that the blood contract was always fine and that the bottle of mayhem wasn't unless your a antag, mostly due to the fact that the one ban i've ever gotten is for using the bottle of mayhem on the shuttle.

lots of people have gotten banned for bottle of blood explicitly and not blood contract well after that policy thread, which to me suggests evidence of this well known backtrack. multiple people will confirm this but APPARENTLY it was just espoused in adminbus somewhere and now we have to PROVE it exists because players are definitely searching on the forums for old policy threads to know if they can do something questionable instead of ahelping and asking ingame

be imsxz the miner player: Banned for 4320 minutes - In essence, dropped a bottle of mayhem on the shuttle then urged people to use it. This is super, super similar to just handing out a bomb to a known antag, as not everybody knows what the bottle does. As such, this is a ban for being reckless with the position with shit that you know is dangerous. Honestly should be longer, but this is a chance. If you do this kind of shit again I will actually banish you to the far reaches.

be ghost echoe the miner player: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20345

i didnt appeal my ban because i felt i deserved it for getting 10+ people on the shuttle killed but apparently that type of thing is really cool and allowed if you kill the easiest megafauna on lavaland first

My one and only ban is for using the bottle of mayhem on the shuttle as non-antag, "Banned for 12960 minutes - Banned for using the murder orb on the shuttle as a non-antag because "i dunno", resulting in nine deaths."

notoriously wishy washy lol

I MISS THE SLIME.

IMO mayhem bottle has enough nonantag uses to justify not allowing random nonantag grief with it, coming from someone who actively searches for new ways to use it. I like to pop it as an emergency stimulant in megafauna fights if I slip up. Outside of lavaland, it can be used for neat stuff like rage cages, fighting nukies, or turning the tide in a cult summon (among other things). It really doesn't need a free grief license. Not to mention that bubblegum is probably the easiest megafauna on lavaland with the semi-recent changes, it's hardly "earned".

i've used the bottle of mayhem at least 10 times on the shuttle as nonantag and have never had any admins say anything to me. it's common knowledge that you can use the blood scroll/bottle of mayhem at any time for any reason as nonantag. anyone who thinks otherwise is a confirmed redditmin

The blood contract is fine as is for non antags, if you use it on an antag, and the bottle has niche use as well, but saying a non antag should have free reign to use these when it's loot from what is currently the easiest boss is wrong. If Bubblegum was any kind of challenge then it would make sense that you should be able to use your toys however you want but as of now he's just a free suit of armor and random grief loot.

Gee, MinerMainThatRushesMegafaunaEveryRound#1443, activating blood bottle for the 101st time today? Haha, it was pretty cool the first 100 times, it's getting stale, though.

For real though. With bubblegum spawning extremely frequently, combined with how trivial of a fight he is, the fact that nonantags can use the grief loot for their "effort" is very silly and getting run into the ground really quickly.

imsxz wrote:Gee, MinerMainThatRushesMegafaunaEveryRound#1443, activating blood bottle for the 101st time today? Haha, it was pretty cool the first 100 times, it's getting stale, though.

For real though. With bubblegum spawning extremely frequently, combined with how trivial of a fight he is, the fact that nonantags can use the grief loot for their "effort" is very silly and getting run into the ground really quickly.

I have two arguments for you person

1. You're probably the second best miner main not counting for Kraso. You can literally murder bubblegum all day long. As a crappy miner I'd have to say, It's pretty great to finally kill bubbleguts after cloning for the 10th time.

2. Movespeed nerf is coming so so very soon, and It's high likely that being able to evade bubblegums charge will be the outcome of this. You shall see your winning rate go from 100% to a mere 25%

>notoriously wishy washy

uncalled for and untrue. it's ok to make a policy discussion but there's no need to slander the name of the person who made it because you dont agree with them or because you want to make it seem easy to change.

People pull this shit all the time and get away with it. Perhaps I have no faith in any form of rules or roleplay at this point.

I'd argue both of these items should not even be in the game since it makes little sense how it works to begin with, it seeming more like a wizard item than some RNG loot that anyone with a modicum of skill could acquire.
Using either of these items as a non-antag is simply griefing, and depending on the circumstances can do more damage than any bomb.

The bottle of mayhem as it stands shouldn't be usable on the shuttle by non antags "because I wanted to".

This does mean its kind of a shitty door prize. I would suggest that a code change occur. Maybe linked to antag status. If antag stays as is. If non antag covers all tiles in view with blood that causes a speed up effect.

I dunno... just seems like a bit of dissonance with the core rules post on /tg/ besides using it on the shuttle kind of makes you a dick.

All boss items should be usable by nonantagonists regardless of the carnage they may cause.

The item should be moved to a better gate if nonantags aren't meant to use it. Killing the hardest mobs in the game only to not reap the rewards is shitty.

bubblegum isn't a hard mob to fight though

i'm awful at fighting megafauna and i killed bubblegum the first time i learned how to actually prepare for it properly, now it requires literally no effort other than 15 minutes of prep

What makes a boss item so special cobby? What gives miners and miners alone the exclusive privilege to self antag? Finding morph on lavaland is way easier than turning yourself into a ling in xenobio. What's the difference between killing bubblegum and using your meme items and making a maxcap and throwing it at bridge?
Why should miners be rewarded for doing their job well enough with the sole ability to negatively effect the station?

confused rock wrote:What makes a boss item so special cobby? What gives miners and miners alone the exclusive privilege to self antag? Finding morph on lavaland is way easier than turning yourself into a ling in xenobio. What's the difference between killing bubblegum and using your meme items and making a maxcap and throwing it at bridge?
Why should miners be rewarded for doing their job well enough with the sole ability to negatively effect the station?

Good point let's make xenoling antag

confused rock wrote:What makes a boss item so special cobby? What gives miners and miners alone the exclusive privilege to self antag? Finding morph on lavaland is way easier than turning yourself into a ling in xenobio. What's the difference between killing bubblegum and using your meme items and making a maxcap and throwing it at bridge?
Why should miners be rewarded for doing their job well enough with the sole ability to negatively effect the station?

There's a difference between xenoling and morph

1. Morph sucks ass now. They cannot eat anything transformed, everything they eat can potentially get them killed. Eat the captain? Well now you have a literal tracker inside of you because of his suit sensors. Eat a ling? Well GG no Re. They'll armblade you from the inside out and there's literally nothing you can do about it other then "lmao get rekt morphs succ"

2. getting wiz from lavaland is a better comparison

subject217 wrote:bubblegum isn't a hard mob to fight though

i'm awful at fighting megafauna and i killed bubblegum the first time i learned how to actually prepare for it properly, now it requires literally no effort other than 15 minutes of prep

Make it harder then it’s suppose to be the hardest mob :^)

making bosses harder isnt the solution. people will always adapt and learn to beat it with their eyes closed sooner or later and you'll be back at square one again, up until you've got the toughest fight in the history of gaming that 5 or 6 people can still beat because they have nothing better to be doing and we'll still have this same issue. look at ash drake for instance. most miner mains can beat it easily after the buff, and the buff was significant.

The same people cheesing megafauna is an issue with any feature that has persistence to it. IE toxins can make Theo 1K radius bombs each round.

The only way to thwart that would be to add a rng element to it or to cap it which sounds kinda odd for this

honestly should just be removed if you're gonna ban people for using it

or add a warning to it like with the bag of holding bomb

Cobby wrote:The same people cheesing megafauna is an issue with any feature that has persistence to it. IE toxins can make Theo 1K radius bombs each round.

The only way to thwart that would be to add a rng element to it or to cap it which sounds kinda odd for this

If the problem is robust players who know how to cheese mechanics that the majority does not. Well, how do we scrape out the few that can do this?

So, we know that depending on the Lavaland shift. Not all megafauna will spawn, sometimes more megafaunas can spawn then others.

This is how we limit the truly destructive stuff like becoming a Lesser Ash Drake from appearing. It's gated by a chance of getting an ash drake to spawn, by a chance of having it not be over lava somewhere, and by another chance of getting the item set you want, and winning the 1/4 lottery.

The best solution to this is to add items with less potential to do damage as alternative loot boxes to these bottles of mayhem and blood contracts. So we'd see them less, whilst still being able to keep items that don't really do any harm outside of a small minority getting it too much. Like per se, what if instead of any of those things. One of the items of choice you got was some sort of No-Drop chainsaw that's colored blood red and does burn damage instead of brute damage for sitting in bubblegums stomach for so long. It'll be easy to stop anyone with a No-Drop chainsaw as they will need assistance to heal. Unless they have some healing virus.

imsxz wrote:IMO mayhem bottle has enough nonantag uses to justify not allowing random nonantag grief with it

I think so too, treat it as a maxcap. Use it as a non antag or leave it laying around = punishable.
Using one you found = punishable unless you have like 30 minutes played and literally had no idea.
Or maybe even add a warning to the examine.

you honestly don't even need to cheese Bubblegum

he's pretty fucking easy to just sightread and still win

bubblegum is the third least killed boss of all the bosses (for the month of October), and is killed in about once in every three rounds. Legion is killed in over 90% of rounds.

their loot should reflect their difficulty OR their difficulty should reflect their loot

Cobby wrote:bubblegum is the third least killed boss of all the bosses (for the month of October), and is killed in about once in every three rounds. Legion is killed in over 90% of rounds.

their loot should reflect their difficulty OR their difficulty should reflect their loot

Where are you pulling those stats from? This doesn't seem right at first pass but I'm open to being completely wrong here.

https://atlantaned.space/statbus/stat.p ... 8&month=10

Stats I listed were from last month.

Cobby wrote:https://atlantaned.space/statbus/stat.p ... 8&month=10

Stats I listed were from last month.

This seems really really backwards

Nilons wrote:

Cobby wrote:https://atlantaned.space/statbus/stat.p ... 8&month=10

Stats I listed were from last month.

This seems really really backwards

lol I mean it's possible it's broken :^)

I'd put $100 that it's recording Legion kills as in the small Legions that drop the regen cores

Bubblegum is by far the most commonly killed megafauna. That used to be the Ash Drake, but it's somewhat harder now. I'd say that it's probably something like Bubblegum -> Hierophant -> Ash Drake -> Legion -> Colossus. And most people don't kill Legion because the loot from it sucks.

I find the Legion data to be questionable. I rarely see anyone activate Legion, much less kill it, in the many hours I play weekly. Bubblegum, on the other hand, is killed almost every round. Bubblegum loot is just too good in general. Yeah Voice of God can be pretty powerful in the right hands but you can use that to meme or for other harmless or even helpful things as well, the crystal is worthless most of the time, and the best dragon loot is based on rng. All of bubblegum's loot can be used to grief hard and god forbid an antag gets the spell blade. Since raising the difficulty is just a bandaid fix then the current loot, excluding the HECK suit, should be replaced or removed. More Doom related loot would be cool. Maybe a chainsaw like was said above or some kind of riot/double barrel shotgun reskin, maybe even a reskinned BoH since miners tend to get a lot of big items and that would fit the Doom theme as well.

Kangtut wrote:I find the Legion data to be questionable. I rarely see anyone activate Legion, much less kill it, in the many hours I play weekly. Bubblegum, on the other hand, is killed almost every round. Bubblegum loot is just too good in general. Yeah Voice of God can be pretty powerful in the right hands but you can use that to meme or for other harmless or even helpful things as well, the crystal is worthless most of the time, and the best dragon loot is based on rng. All of bubblegum's loot can be used to grief hard and god forbid an antag gets the spell blade. Since raising the difficulty is just a bandaid fix then the current loot, excluding the HECK suit, should be replaced or removed. More Doom related loot would be cool. Maybe a chainsaw like was said above or some kind of riot/double barrel shotgun reskin, maybe even a reskinned BoH since miners tend to get a lot of big items and that would fit the Doom theme as well.

To be fair, crystal is completely broken if used well and you get good rng

I personally found both items fine. The original ruling for the bottle of blood being used as a non-antag was in place early on when it seemed like every round turned into a slaughter demon rampaging. I recall arguing that banning people for loot was dumb, but back then when the loot table was not as expanded and loot was pretty consistent dropping. Currently that isn't the case and bans for touching such items should be re-evaluated as making a thing drop, but not letting you touch it because you're not an antagonist has always been silly.

The Blood Contract generally has been always okay, except in cases where people used it to "self-antag" where they marked themselves and killed anyone who attacked them. I do believe this has been frowned upon, but I actually can't find any source-able ruling on that, but may have spawned from this thread.

Link to old thread with rulings from Ausops

You can't use the Legion staff of storms on station pretty much ever as a non antag. It only has the niche use of stopping storms on Lavaland (which is useless because you've already acquired the 100% guaranteed stormproof armor). The blood bottle ruling isn't out of nowhere.

Anuv wrote:I'd put $100 that it's recording Legion kills as in the small Legions that drop the regen cores

You're Correct, PRing now

On topic, I've always found it a bit weird that either of the murder items are usable as non-antag. No self-antagging (i.e. murdering) UNLESS you killed this one (now easy) boss? It's also weird that new players have to search up rulings that they shouldn't really expect to be there in the first place to understand what you can do with boss loot.

4dplanner wrote:

NSFW:

Blood drunk miner officially confirmed as about as difficult as 2 legions

On topic, I've always found it a bit weird that either of the murder items are usable as non-antag. No self-antagging (i.e. murdering) UNLESS you killed this one (now easy) boss? It's also weird that new players have to search up rulings that they shouldn't really expect to be there in the first place to understand what you can do with boss loot.

Self antagging and non antag murder are not the same thing at all

4dplanner wrote:

NSFW:

Blood drunk miner officially confirmed as about as difficult as 2 legions

On topic, I've always found it a bit weird that either of the murder items are usable as non-antag. No self-antagging (i.e. murdering) UNLESS you killed this one (now easy) boss? It's also weird that new players have to search up rulings that they shouldn't really expect to be there in the first place to understand what you can do with boss loot.

If the boss is easy then nerf the loot, but don't make the loot not usable. Players don't have to search up rulings, they can press F1 and ask (which is better anyways since you prob don't want to get banned due to admin roulette).

To be clear, if there's no use for it except to kill people then it should be 1) changed or 2) usable by nonantags to "self-antag"

Same is true with Legion SoS, there should be nonantag usage for it as well.

PR these loot removals right now cobblestone I dare you

In case anyone was unaware, the bottle sells for a whole lot through cargo. I might be misremembering, but I think it's worth like 30,000 credits? That's enough to instantly unlock a few shuttles, a couple crates of pizza or even buy a null crate. The only options for the bottle aren't "use if you're antag or toss into lava if you're not".

Ispiria wrote:In case anyone was unaware, the bottle sells for a whole lot through cargo. I might be misremembering, but I think it's worth like 30,000 credits? That's enough to instantly unlock a few shuttles, a couple crates of pizza or even buy a null crate. The only options for the bottle aren't "use if you're antag or toss into lava if you're not".

giving the qm a null crate to play with is not a reward

> kills one of the hardest mobs in the game
>> just so you can give it to cargo

alternatively and the more realistic option is that if there's no good alternative then people just won't use that feature anymore. No one is going to risk perma-dying over getting cargo $, and that's considering they get the rewards (hint: they most likely won't).

Nilons wrote:

Ispiria wrote:In case anyone was unaware, the bottle sells for a whole lot through cargo. I might be misremembering, but I think it's worth like 30,000 credits? That's enough to instantly unlock a few shuttles, a couple crates of pizza or even buy a null crate. The only options for the bottle aren't "use if you're antag or toss into lava if you're not".

giving the qm a null crate to play with is not a reward

Buying a null crate for yourself is

If you're not allowed to use the loot then it should just be removed.

somerandomguy wrote:

Nilons wrote:

Ispiria wrote:In case anyone was unaware, the bottle sells for a whole lot through cargo. I might be misremembering, but I think it's worth like 30,000 credits? That's enough to instantly unlock a few shuttles, a couple crates of pizza or even buy a null crate. The only options for the bottle aren't "use if you're antag or toss into lava if you're not".

giving the qm a null crate to play with is not a reward

Buying a null crate for yourself is

good luck doing that without getting swarmed by cargo techs/qm while it gets there on the shuttle