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People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:38 am
by Yakumo_Chen
Bottom post of the previous page:
I've been talking about this in an assistant thread, but I think it should warrant actual policy.
It's bad for the game when every single player in a department fucks off from their job and refuses to do it. Outside of antags being antags, the base requirement expected for almost every non-assistant job on the station is that you at least make some attempt to do it before going off and doing whatever autism. Departments will work mostly fine if there's at least one person who bothers to spend the 5 minutes doing their thing, but when nobody does their job, the station suffers and admins or the rest of the crew are forced to start intervening (or the shuttle is just called because the round becomes shit)
Some examples:
Engineering: Basic station functionality
Job: So long as there's an AI or borg, engineers barely even have to do their job. Apply wrench to the two N2 cannisters already sitting where they need to be, go get some plasma tanks from the tank dispenser and put them in the collectors sitting near single-pane windows next to the SM. That's literally it, the AI can do the rest.
Consequences: Inevitably the power will run out. Literally nothing functions on the station without a power source, so the round might as well end if nobody wants to bother. Arguably the most important job on the station.
Science: Round progression
Job: We've reduced research to a game where you click buttons on a console and the round progresses. There's also other autism things you can do in science but they contribute nothing to the round typically except autism / antagging
Consequences: Almost none because if the scientists don't push the buttons inevitably someone will break in to press the buttons. It's still shitty if scientists aren't bothering to do any autism though. Consequences used to be greater when research was actually a vaguely involved job.
Mining: Round progression
Job: Bump into the Colossus and die. Also bring ores back up to space maybe
Consequences: The only reason anyone picks miner is to actually do their job, since miners loitering on the station early in the round are almost advertising they are antag. Science and mining are linked in that the round won't progress if neither do anything. Mining is more excusable though since half the time they just die anyway. Rounds without miners are still short-lived though.
Security: Round longevity
Job: Antag deterrent / Antag lootbox
Consequences: I am almost vaguely sure there is at least some expectation in the rules to not just grief / greytide as security or give all your things to a tider. If you want to AFK, go do it in brig
======================================
What should we do?
I'm not saying that you should be banned for not doing your job every single round, but if
nobody is doing their job, even after crew harassment to go do it, admins should be taking notes. Seeing power not set up multiple rounds in a row with engineers should be ringing some warning bells. Job bans for people who consistently fuck off to do something else / greytide. If you want to greytide, stick to Assistant.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:36 am
by NecromancerAnne
Yeeting someone out of the round even temporarily for slacking off seems like a fucking horrid suggestion and I can only imagine admins will not like it if you do it frequently. Not only do you risk getting killed yourself and put out for the rest of the round because you chose to throw hands, you are risking getting bwoinked about it and that doesn't seem worth it. Especially when your reasoning was 'they didn't do their job even when I asked', which depending on who is handling on it and how you phrase it might not be enough to convince the admin in question.
If they're not actually doing something griefy and just slacking off you'd be better off just doing the job yourself.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:59 pm
by imsxz
>thread about jobbanning people who just straight up ignore their job consistently(round to round basis) >people read it as BAN PEOPLE WHO SLACK OFF
yep, classic TG.
I agree that people who roll for jobs just to dick around with whatever the gear they get is really shitty but IMO it'd be too difficult to handle as a policy issue because both admins and players will interpret it as "ban people for not doing the job to my standards/how i prefer to do it". Not a baseless claim, look at some of the arguments people are using against this thread...
IMO a better way to go about it is to keep all the real fancy gear that people typically roll for behind somehow completing the bare minimum of the job you're assigned to do (ENGINEERING RCD COUGH). Easier said than done of course, but I figure it's a better way to go about it like that than trying to artificially restrict people to playing a specific way, nobody really enjoys that.
Specifically engineering lots of it could be in whatever way require the power grid to have excess power and SMES's to be charging or something. Wouldn't be much of an issue for most jobs, but engineering and chemistry are the biggest offenders of "sign up for grief tools, ignore the actual job" players from personal experience.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:23 am
by NecromancerAnne
Maybe put RCD's into the premium items on the vendors and a fired engine gives everyone a payrise, since we have this fucking economy system. Although as I understand it, goof's system doesn't play nice with altering pay rates so maybe that's out of the question.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:14 pm
by somerandomguy
PKPenguin321 wrote:somerandomguy wrote:snip
you people are helpless. yeah no shit if you start getting up on people they can fight back. it doesn't mean the system doesn't work, it means you need to get fucking good instead of crying about how much you fucking suck at the game.
1. Say something like "Hey buddy, go to work or else I'm gonna kick your ass"
2a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
2b. Assuming they ignore you or refuse, start throwing punches
3a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
3b. Assuming they start running or fighting back, keep throwing punches (or use weapons or whatever).
4a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
4b. They are now in crit or dead. Drag their stupid ass to the medbay and throw them over the counter.
If you get whooped instead of them, tough luck. Be more prepared before calling people out next time. Also consider calling for help from sec or any other relevant persons.
3c. they work but later pull out a flash next to you while you're looking at something else (i.e. you cant react) and you're dead
^this is what I'm talking about
and you can't defend yourself because STUNS
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:03 pm
by PKPenguin321
somerandomguy wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:somerandomguy wrote:snip
you people are helpless. yeah no shit if you start getting up on people they can fight back. it doesn't mean the system doesn't work, it means you need to get fucking good instead of crying about how much you fucking suck at the game.
1. Say something like "Hey buddy, go to work or else I'm gonna kick your ass"
2a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
2b. Assuming they ignore you or refuse, start throwing punches
3a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
3b. Assuming they start running or fighting back, keep throwing punches (or use weapons or whatever).
4a. They are now listening and working. You are done.
4b. They are now in crit or dead. Drag their stupid ass to the medbay and throw them over the counter.
If you get whooped instead of them, tough luck. Be more prepared before calling people out next time. Also consider calling for help from sec or any other relevant persons.
3c. they work but later pull out a flash next to you while you're looking at something else (i.e. you cant react) and you're dead
^this is what I'm talking about
and you can't defend yourself because STUNS
that's pretty conveniently specific, don't you think? in the rounds where i've done this, if i saw them approach me later in the round, i'd just outright avoid them or fight them or call sec
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:31 pm
by imsxz
Beating people up for not doing their job sounds like a recipe to get banned for killbaiting unless you were a command member. That’s a really easy way to get people to hate you though, nobody likes a bossy head of staff. IRL it’s not so bad being firm with people to get them to do stuff but in a video game it’s just like ???? fuck off bro I’m tryna do my own thing
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:50 pm
by WarbossLincoln
tinodrima7020 wrote:>beat people up for not doing their jobs
>get bwoinked, noted, and banned for bad escalation
Very cool
I don't think I've ever seen someone get banned for beating someone up. Especially when there's any sort of justifiable IC reason like "they aren't doing their job and I need them to".
People getting banned for a fight over someone not doing the job(how they want them to) are usually because the defender will slip them and throw them out and the autist instigator comes back and torches the place over it.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:59 pm
by tinodrima7020
imsxz wrote:Beating people up for not doing their job sounds like a recipe to get banned for killbaiting unless you were a command member. That’s a really easy way to get people to hate you though, nobody likes a bossy head of staff. IRL it’s not so bad being firm with people to get them to do stuff but in a video game it’s just like ???? fuck off bro I’m tryna do my own thing
Imagine roleplaying in a roleplaying game.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:08 am
by imsxz
roleplay the strict department head that doesnt allow any fun projects and forcefully demotes everyone that disobeys them and tell me how it goes sweaty
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:52 am
by Dr_bee
imsxz wrote:roleplay the strict department head that doesnt allow any fun projects and forcefully demotes everyone that disobeys them and tell me how it goes sweaty
There is a difference between focusing on projects and fucking off to nowhere with your starting gear to tide.
Fun projects for engineering might be a TEG engine farm or a tesla coil display, fun projects for science might be public nanites or a cleanbot army.
We arent talking about people making fun projects, we are talking about people being a greyshit in other jobs.
Greytiding was a mistake.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:24 am
by wesoda25
Make a private branch of admins called job moderators and its just dr bee and yakumo and laugh as every single time they try and ban someone for not doing their job, the person pulls logs of them doing their job once and gets unbanned.
Simply not plausible, an administrative headache to be sure.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:45 pm
by WarbossLincoln
Imagine the rules page if every job considered "important" had a list of things you are required to attempt to do in at least most of the rounds you play. Then there's the list of precedents and headmin rulings. Then you get the ban appeals and admin complaints at inconsistent ruling because this is even more subjective than most of our rules.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:03 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
WarbossLincoln wrote:Imagine the rules page if every job considered "important" had a list of things you are required to attempt to do in at least most of the rounds you play. Then there's the list of precedents and headmin rulings. Then you get the ban appeals and admin complaints at inconsistent ruling because this is even more subjective than most of our rules.
Technically captains are required to secure the disk in some way or another (even if it’s just throwing the disk at the first greyshirt to break in looking for all-access), I think.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:59 pm
by TothBrush
PKPenguin321 wrote:player freedom when it comes to your job is one of the pillars that holds server. imagine if we banned atmos techs for building forts when technically they're supposed to just watch the pipes all round.
that said, if somebody ditches their job and it's something critical (a doctor ignoring people, an engineer not setting up power), feel free to beat them up ICly.
Even if you literally sat in medbay for 10 minutes straight begging anyone who walked by to use the sleeper on you, I doubt an admin would ever agree to let you stay unbanned if you beat a doctor into crit and took their ID over that.
I've had people literally fucking play scientist, spawn in, run into xeno and space the slime processor, then blow up the plasma in xenobiology and then suicide within 5 minutes of roundstart for no reason other than "lol xD" and the admins didn't even fucking bother jobbaning them. I've even had people play as roboticist and steal all the metal from RnD every single round back to back and then valid hunt anyone who tried to break into robotics to get it back and still nothing from the admins.
Everyone in this thread is debating how they should handle people not playing their job when we don't even have precedent set to ban players for literally sabotaging their own department.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:21 am
by cedarbridge
TothBrush wrote:I've had people literally fucking play scientist, spawn in, run into xeno and space the slime processor, then blow up the plasma in xenobiology and then suicide within 5 minutes of roundstart for no reason other than "lol xD" and the admins didn't even fucking bother jobbaning them.
This either never happened, didn't happen the way you said it did, or happened when there were no admins around.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:03 am
by Gigapuddi420
TothBrush wrote:I've had people literally fucking play scientist, spawn in, run into xeno and space the slime processor, then blow up the plasma in xenobiology and then suicide within 5 minutes of roundstart for no reason other than "lol xD" and the admins didn't even fucking bother jobbaning them.
If you're going to use this example you should probably also mention that you went into the next round to do the same thing to that scientist to get revenge while I was still investigating. You also fail to mention that I chose not to ban either of you and went for a diplomatic option of getting you both to back off on harassing each other.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:30 am
by WarbossLincoln
This thread was dumb 6 weeks ago. It's still dumb when it was necro'd.
Some things are better off dead.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:11 pm
by Gylifi
This is an absolutely stupid thread.
Honestly, this sort of thing may gain traction on a HRP, or maybe even a MRP server, like bay or the likes. A LRP server like tg doesn't need this sort of thing - understandly it's annoying when people goof off just to tide sec with their free insuls and RCD, but people need to remember this is /TG/, the reason people play here is due to the chaos and usual lack of rules that add a spicy bit of chaos to the atmosphere of the game.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:09 pm
by Cobby
I don't see why this wouldn't be punishable.
This is of course assuming bad faith playing IE using the job you spawn in to consistently get free loot to abuse (engineer playing yellowtide). If you're playing in good faith, say going engineer to make a wacky room for the crew over setting up power or conducting oddball experiments not pertaining to xeno/toxins/rnd as scientist, you shouldn't assume this thread going through means you can no longer do such. In fact, i'm pretty sure most if not all admins would encourage that sort of odd behavior that has people bringing it up years down the line and encourages new players to check out ss13.
I mean this is going to be enforced like greytiding/powergaming though so unless you're the likes of Asher, Jasper, or that guy who always got the same powergaming outfit round by round; you're most likely not going to see this be enforced too often.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:08 pm
by WarbossLincoln
Cobby wrote:using the job you spawn in to consistently get free loot to abuse (engineer playing yellowtide).
This isn't actually punishable though as far as I can tell. We all know of a couple engineers who routinely use their gear to steal the spare near round start and have done it for months on end.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:54 pm
by Cobby
That's because
1) It's not being reported
2) The Admins who see it don't want to deal with that dumpster fire of "banned for consistent behavior but I show you in each situation that I was just toeing the line so time for forum royale"
3) A combination of 1 and 2
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:07 pm
by cedarbridge
We have banned people for excessive powergaming tide behavior in the past. Its been quite a while though.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:08 pm
by Cobby
Asher Clark/ Jasper Schmidt (? on last name) are fairly recently so it's not totally legacy
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:02 am
by Boris
PKPenguin321 wrote:player freedom when it comes to your job is one of the pillars that holds server. imagine if we banned atmos techs for building forts when technically they're supposed to just watch the pipes all round.
that said, if somebody ditches their job and it's something critical (a doctor ignoring people, an engineer not setting up power), feel free to beat them up ICly.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:03 pm
by Cobby
tbf, "consistently" is an important part of this thread.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:10 pm
by oranges
Gylifi wrote:This is an absolutely stupid thread.
Honestly, this sort of thing may gain traction on a HRP, or maybe even a MRP server, like bay or the likes. A LRP server like tg doesn't need this sort of thing - understandly it's annoying when people goof off just to tide sec with their free insuls and RCD, but people need to remember this is /TG/, the reason people play here is due to the chaos and usual lack of rules that add a spicy bit of chaos to the atmosphere of the game.
do you even know what /tg/ stands for you fucking buffoon
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:34 am
by Malkraz
/TransGenderism/
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:35 am
by CrazyClown12
/TheGoyim/
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 9:38 pm
by Mickyan
What about people that purposefully use their job's privileges for random grief, can I start ahelping about that because I am tired of seeing botanists turn people into golems or planting shadowshrooms in the hallways on a daily basis
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 10:40 pm
by teepeepee
Mickyan wrote:What about people that purposefully use their job's privileges for random grief, can I start ahelping about that because I am tired of seeing botanists turn people into golems or planting shadowshrooms in the hallways on a daily basis
ahelp the shadowshrooms, I got a note for it a year ago so I can guarantee it is enforced
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:47 am
by carshalash
Soooooo, now that statis beds have been merged. Will doctors and chemists that do nothing but make meth and "happy pills" in the span of an hour get punished or is this one of those things that we just ignore the deteriorating quality of certain departments?
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 2:40 am
by PKPenguin321
carshalash wrote:Will doctors and chemists that do nothing but make meth and "happy pills" in the span of an hour get punished?
nope
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 2:49 am
by carshalash
PKPenguin321 wrote:carshalash wrote:Will doctors and chemists that do nothing but make meth and "happy pills" in the span of an hour get punished?
nope
So we're pushing the stasis pod change while encouraging people to be shitheads, cool.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:18 am
by terranaut
carshalash wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:carshalash wrote:Will doctors and chemists that do nothing but make meth and "happy pills" in the span of an hour get punished?
nope
So we're pushing the stasis pod change while encouraging people to be shitheads, cool.
stasis beds were merged yesterday
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:05 am
by FloranOtten
Yakumo_Chen wrote:
if the shuttle is being called explicitly because there's no power despite living, active engineers and a functioning SM, there's a player problem.
People calling shuttle here are usually at fault. Nothing irks me as much as being an engineer, modding the engine and seeing 'The Emergency Shuttle has been called' with the reason being 'Power has not been setup yet. The engineers are retards.' We have power to last us another 10 minutes, piss off with your power bullshit. Fuck, I've had AIs turn on emitters on a still re-laminating engine for reason of 'THE STATION NEEDS POWER', then calling shuttle because 'no power'.
My point being, that is a horrible example, and instead an example as to why job banning for 'not doing their job' is a bad idea. Just because engi isn't speedrunning the engine and instead modding or teaching a new person does not mean we're slackers.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:33 am
by Dr_bee
FloranOtten wrote:Yakumo_Chen wrote:
if the shuttle is being called explicitly because there's no power despite living, active engineers and a functioning SM, there's a player problem.
People calling shuttle here are usually at fault. Nothing irks me as much as being an engineer, modding the engine and seeing 'The Emergency Shuttle has been called' with the reason being 'Power has not been setup yet. The engineers are retards.' We have power to last us another 10 minutes, piss off with your power bullshit. Fuck, I've had AIs turn on emitters on a still re-laminating engine for reason of 'THE STATION NEEDS POWER', then calling shuttle because 'no power'.
My point being, that is a horrible example, and instead an example as to why job banning for 'not doing their job' is a bad idea. Just because engi isn't speedrunning the engine and instead modding or teaching a new person does not mean we're slackers.
If I had a dollar for every time someone called the shuttle due to station damage even as engineers are fixing it I would have enough money to actually donate to the server.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 3:00 pm
by WarbossLincoln
There's no good way to have a policy on this because a policy needs to be concrete. How do you put an official limit on "consistently"? It should just be handled on a case by case basis, which it already can be. From what I've seen you don't often have the same person fucking around on the job consistently every round. It's a different chucklehead every round screwing around, which is even harder to police.
It also kind of discourages players from learning a new job if they think some admin is going to give them shit because 5 rounds later they're still not up to doing their job "correctly".
How do you define "doing your job". If you're a chemist is it making 1 medicine and then nothing but drugs? Is it not experimenting with grenades util 15 minutes of medicine making has passed? Is it an engineer who doesn't immediately set up the SM?
Do you really think admins are going to spend their time watching jobs on the station so they can note players with "1 instance of not doing their job as engineer" so a record can build up to a job ban? Cause if you don't make notes of it then you're not following a policy.
What about a problem that a bunch of jobs can fix? Who gets the blame for dropping the ball? How much time do you want an admin to do digging into this when they could spend their adminning time dealing with intentional grief.
My example for this is a round the other day I was in where cloning was a mess. There was no cryo mix, no mutadone or mannitol, cloning was not upgraded, neither doctors nor geneticists were doing cloning 99% of the time. So if you did get cloned you came out with genetic disorders and no real way to remove them. Who should get the blame? Chemists for not making a cryo mix? Geneticists/doctors for ignoring bodies at cloning? CMO for not doing any of that, and not yelling at them? Science for not upgrading cloning? Everyone?
tldr; This is a dumb idea because you're asking for a policy to police something that has no hard limits and will be completely subjective based on the admin's idea of "doing their job consistently". We're not talking about someone who rolls engineer every round for free tiding gear to loot the captain at round start, that's already handled by rule 1. This is a space-themed autism simulator, you can't regulate job performance on TG without destroying what makes it TG(outside of job banning people who fuck the whole station up with blown up engines, bomb accidents, atmos fuckups, etc, on the reg). The closest thing we have to that is Sec is supposed to not murder random criminals they can detain non-lethally. And that's a pretty low bar.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:25 am
by Dr_bee
WarbossLincoln wrote:
tldr; This is a dumb idea because you're asking for a policy to police something that has no hard limits and will be completely subjective based on the admin's idea of "doing their job consistently". We're not talking about someone who rolls engineer every round for free tiding gear to loot the captain at round start, that's already handled by rule 1. This is a space-themed autism simulator, you can't regulate job performance on TG without destroying what makes it TG(outside of job banning people who fuck the whole station up with blown up engines, bomb accidents, atmos fuckups, etc, on the reg). The closest thing we have to that is Sec is supposed to not murder random criminals they can detain non-lethally. And that's a pretty low bar.
It used to be solved in character by people getting arrested for dereliction of duty and thrown in perma, or demoted by their head of staff. The problem is now that involves a potentially deadly conflict with escalation rules being a thing.
Most sec officers are already busy enough dealing with tiders and traitors and dont want to worry about disgruntled lazy fucks ruining their round for them, and most heads of staff dont want to deal with the inevitable escalation murder attempts that will happen if they demote the lazy.
This is a multi-faceted problem that isnt just caused by lax policy or enforcement but from an overall change in server culture over the years.
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:02 pm
by cedarbridge
Dr_bee wrote:WarbossLincoln wrote:This is a multi-faceted problem that isnt just caused by lax policy or enforcement but from an overall change in server culture over the years.
This is also bound up with the reality that experienced/robust players trend away from head of department positions for various reasons. This means that there are less heads of departments who 1) know really enough about what's going on to recognize something amiss in one part of their department or not 2) even if they did notice they're probably not equipped to handle the wrongdoer 3) the lazy bum will then probably scream about how their round is compromised because a nosey head of staff/coworker/random botanist decided that they weren't doing their job to a satisfactory proximity to the meta flowchart.
Conversely, we have a couple of people I can think of off hand (I've been guilty of this in the past so I have standing) who get very bent out of shape if somebody is doing [their department task] "the wrong way", where "the wrong way" just means "not the meta/their preferred way." Players should obviously be free to disagree about methods of approached and actual insubordination should be punishable IC, but I can't see admins willingly getting too involved in "jobban this guy from sci because he researched X before Y."
Re: People not doing their jobs consistently should be job banned
Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:59 am
by FloranOtten
cedarbridge wrote:"jobban this guy from sci because he researched X before Y."
Honesty though if you're rushing nanites before industrial engineering you're a retard