/tg/Station 13

More or less fitting into the idea here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21251

Make it so, if an admin deems that the Shuttle Call is unnecessary, they can take actions against it.

What may constitute as an unnecessary shuttle call?

• - "I'm bored"
  - There are a lot of traitors (there are little traitors or traitor actions)
  - Repairable Station Destruction - Note, this one should be to the admins opinion. The admin should take into account how easy it is to repair, and how likely it is to be repaired. Something like one mass cap should generally not be excusable

What may constitute as necessary shuttle call?

• -A high mortality rate
  -The destruction of several key points on station (cloners, etc)
  -The completion of a station goal
  -Irreparable Station Destruction - Plasma flooding, SM, Singulo, Tesla, a lot of max caps, etc
  -High-Threat Antagonists - Nuke Ops, Cults, Wizards, ETC

What punishments should they face?
The punishments shouldn't be too heavy, it should be enough to know "Hey, don't do this". Such as, start with a verbal warning and continuation of it should lead to a note. So essentially, punishable as all other minor things are.

What are the pros and cons (that I can see, obviously, add your own pros and cons).

Pros

• -Longer station rounds
  -More fun for antagonists who want to be creative. Perhaps they have a plan but takes time, this extra time allows them to do so
  -More fun for station roles who have objectives that typically take longer to reach, such as miners, xenobiology, geneticists, virology, and the plant boys

Cons

• -This may lead to antagonists (or even none-antags) making it a point to cause greater destruction to the station
  -People may get bored

This is my first policy, I'm unsure if I done it right, more so I'm unsure if it's been suggested before.

It’s resolved nearly every time ICly, this is stupid in the same way the other thread, “people not doing their jobs should get banned” is. Just something else for admins to moderate when we should be looking for code deterrents for such behavior, which exist in the sense of you pissing the crew off.

wesoda25 wrote:It’s resolved nearly every time ICly, this is stupid in the same way the other thread, “people not doing their jobs should get banned” is. Just something else for admins to moderate when we should be looking for code deterrents for such behavior, which exist in the sense of you pissing the crew off.

I think the current code deterrents are either

• -Placing a limit on how long until the shuttle can be called
  -Removing an aspect plenty of people believe to be a core-experience of TG

To which, both of these have received flak when brought up.

Nah.

Sort it out in character, you big fucking coward.

Precedent


"Antags or not if your spam recalling the shuttle to continue murderboning then you can go eat a shitload of lard" ~


some admin


So antags already shouldn't do that

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Nah.

Sort it out in character, you big fucking coward.

So can I execute non-heads of staff who call shuttle (not through AI) for no reason?

Lumbermancer wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Nah.

Sort it out in character, you big fucking coward.

So can I execute non-heads of staff who call shuttle (not through AI) for no reason?

no, retard

So I can't sort it out in character then?

I say execute them and destroy the body if they call it more than once and give you a chase

Just letting admins over-rule shuttle calls IC as centcom would be an improvement.

Its a bit more game mastery than adminy but central command saying to fix the damn problem first would be enough to make people actually try to fix the damn problem

It would still be admin action, but it would be light handed, IC admin action. And not giving heads of staff notes for calling the shuttle.

Dr_bee wrote:Just letting admins over-rule shuttle calls IC as centcom would be an improvement.

We already do this. I myself do it when I think it's necessary, which is probably more often than other admins.

I think there are two angles to this. The first is probably that most admins don't directly view round length as a problem worth their time - i.e. they are busy with other things or they simply don't have that big a problem with the round ending. The second is likely circumstances in which the round ends for reasons that you're probably not aware of as someone who is still playing in the round.

If we *really* wanted to improve average round time, the issue isn't directly early shuttle callers IMO, it's round types where killing all antags immediately ends the round, or the round is irreparably damaged by the antags to the point where nobody is having fun anymore and everyone wants it to end.

As far as code deterrents and the "round length issue" are concerned, the reality is that there are quite a lot of players on /tg/ who think that 20-40 minutes is the preferred length for an ss13 round, and depending on your role and the population and even just the type of people playing that can definitely be the case. When I was a Security main I enjoyed the shorter rounds a lot more than I did now because it was more exciting and there was more variety and getting permanently removed from the round didn't matter as much. When I stopped playing Security I found shorter rounds to be frustrating as it discouraged me from building interesting things or doing stuff of that like. In general people who view the game as being more about antags and killing them are going to likely prefer shorter rounds.

Sort of scatterbrained but the point is that /tg/ station caters to what I would characterize as two separate groups of players, and one of those groups likes shorter rounds, and the other likes longer rounds. If the round length on Basil bothers you, my honest, genuine advice would be to give Sybil or Terry a try, where the average round is more like 1-2 hours and the admins are more willing to enforce this if need be.



As a side note since I forgot to mention it directly - bwoinking people for early shuttle calls seems like a silly way to deal with it to me. We have tools to snub people for this ICly. I believe that's generally a preferable method for this sort of thing.

Re-enable the auto recall option.

are heads who call 4noreson valid for murder? (lowpop i m bored single head who calls)

I'd say it's a valid reason to demote someone but it's not a valid reason to kill them. There are solutions besides killing someone, you know.

Dr_bee wrote:Just letting admins over-rule shuttle calls IC as centcom would be an improvement.

To be honest, this is definitely a better way to deal with the situation than the punishments I originally idolized.

subject217 wrote:I'd say it's a valid reason to demote someone but it's not a valid reason to kill them. There are solutions besides killing someone, you know.

The problem lies with our place bases mentality. Even demoting someone leads to escalation, and that can lead to the demoter or the demotee killing each other due to this over escalation. There may also be times when it's the Captain and the HoS calling it constantly for "I'm bored pls restart". It's hard to deal with that ICly in that case, and with some of the Captains on the server (especially the ones who shuttle call for "I'm bored, pls restart") attempting to deal with it ICly, more often or not, will result in your limbs being severed and your guts being cut up with your head being decapitated by his sword.

The reason I believe that some form of admin-intervention is needed in these needless shuttle calls is due to the mentality of the player base itself, where killing is in the norm as a solution.

subject217 wrote:I'd say it's a valid reason to demote someone but it's not a valid reason to kill them. There are solutions besides killing someone, you know.

Fucking this you sperglords
"Oh I cant kill this person? there is NO WAY I COULD POSSIBLY RESOLVE A CONFLICT WITH THEM IC-LY YOU SHITMINS >:((("

Dr_bee wrote:Just letting admins over-rule shuttle calls IC as centcom would be an improvement.

We can already do this. Any time the shuttle is called it pops up in chat for us, along with the caller's name, ckey, and a "Recall" button that even lets us put in a little message for the recall which will be printed as a command report in-game, displayed as the "Rear Admiral's note:". If you've never seen one of these it only means no admin has cared to recall one.

This definitely doesn't need a rule. Handle it IC most of the time, and admemes already have tools to handle it OOC at their discretion.

IC issue. Should only be punishable by rule 0 if someone keeps picking a head role and calling it as soon as it's possible (or something as shitty), imo

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

subject217 wrote:I'd say it's a valid reason to demote someone but it's not a valid reason to kill them. There are solutions besides killing someone, you know.

Fucking this you sperglords
"Oh I cant kill this person? there is NO WAY I COULD POSSIBLY RESOLVE A CONFLICT WITH THEM IC-LY YOU SHITMINS >:((("

The problem with escalation is usually one party doesnt care if they are removed from the round and the other party does. This leads to situations where the party that doesnt care will use any excuse to increase escalation because tiding and murder are why they play the game in the first place.

So if you actually give a damn about staying in the round you dont even attempt to do anything that causes escalation because commonly people will use it as an excuse to escalate to murder.

Escalation is a shit system and is not a solution. All escalation has done is give admins a nice excuse not to bother with playerbase problems.

Yeah what sucks is escalation basically forces you to perma kill them, because otherwise if you just demote they're perfectly allowed to come and remove you from the round.

Still, doesn't need admin enforcement.

If you start the issue by calling the shuttle FNR then you'd be consider the instigator, at least for me.

Lumbermancer wrote:So I can't sort it out in character then?

OHHH, so if you say I can do xyz, that means I can LOGICAL EXTREME?
OHHH, so I can't do LOGICAL EXTREME? That means I can't xyz at all!!!

I hope you're not this stupid in real life

to state precedent to this


meme shuttles are a mistake


Sure, you can try and valid the captain for buying one. But then security and the Ai will go into validhunt mode and execute your ass instead.


There's no winning

Shadowflame909 wrote:to state precedent to this


meme shuttles are a mistake


Sure, you can try and valid the captain for buying one. But then security and the Ai will go into validhunt mode and execute your ass instead.


There's no winning

There's a lot of truth to that. There are some captains who order the same meme shuttle every round. A couple weeks ago I remember 3 days straight where every round I was in had the same captain who ordered the same meme shuttle.

I wonder if it's not a bad idea to gate some of the meme shuttles behind admin "centcomm" approval. Not all of them of course, but the ones that are likely to kill the entire crew like the plasma one or the arena.

;AH SHIT IT'S NOT AN ANTAG ROUND, AI LAW 2 IM BORED CALL THE SHUTTLE
'I'm bored' calls are just another way to antag roll and should be punished as such.

WarbossLincoln wrote:

Shadowflame909 wrote:to state precedent to this


meme shuttles are a mistake


Sure, you can try and valid the captain for buying one. But then security and the Ai will go into validhunt mode and execute your ass instead.


There's no winning

There's a lot of truth to that. There are some captains who order the same meme shuttle every round. A couple weeks ago I remember 3 days straight where every round I was in had the same captain who ordered the same meme shuttle.

I wonder if it's not a bad idea to gate some of the meme shuttles behind admin "centcomm" approval. Not all of them of course, but the ones that are likely to kill the entire crew like the plasma one or the arena.

Ordering meme shuttles constantly will get you a talking to. Please ahelp when this happens

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:So I can't sort it out in character then?

OHHH, so if you say I can do xyz, that means I can LOGICAL EXTREME?
OHHH, so I can't do LOGICAL EXTREME? That means I can't xyz at all!!!

I hope you're not this stupid in real life

The extreme would be cremating the body afterwards, I want merely to exercise captains prerogative.

Some admin, I think maybe imsxy used to BSA me every time I would send stupid centcomm messages. That seems like a good response to this too.

it's a bit disappointing some admins in this thread are being so disrespectful.

You've said people can deal with it IC without really laying out what that looks like.

People are right in that the framework for actually stopping most tg players begins and ends with killing them and disposing of the body so they can't come back because there are literally no reasons to fear most "punishments" you can mete out, so saying you can deal with it IC without actually killing them is at best disingenuous and at worst just outright wrong.

oranges wrote:it's a bit disappointing some admins in this thread are being so disrespectful.

You've said people can deal with it IC without really laying out what that looks like.

People are right in that the framework for actually stopping most tg players begins and ends with killing them and disposing of the body so they can't come back because there are literally no reasons to fear most "punishments" you can mete out, so saying you can deal with it IC without actually killing them is at best disingenuous and at worst just outright wrong.

Shadowflame909 wrote: There's no winning

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Lumbermancer wrote:So I can't sort it out in character then?

OHHH, so if you say I can do xyz, that means I can LOGICAL EXTREME?
OHHH, so I can't do LOGICAL EXTREME? That means I can't xyz at all!!!

I hope you're not this stupid in real life

Clearly you're not familiar with the Tornadium defense.

Gamarr wrote:

oranges wrote:it's a bit disappointing some admins in this thread are being so disrespectful.

You've said people can deal with it IC without really laying out what that looks like.

People are right in that the framework for actually stopping most tg players begins and ends with killing them and disposing of the body so they can't come back because there are literally no reasons to fear most "punishments" you can mete out, so saying you can deal with it IC without actually killing them is at best disingenuous and at worst just outright wrong.

Shadowflame909 wrote: There's no winning

Escalation allowing murder basically made non-murder methods of punishment impossible, as demoting someone basically gives them a reason to attack you which will inevitably escalate to someone dying.

The reason murder by non-antags used to get you day-bans was because it helped keep death and murder serious in character. Murder was a serious in game tell for antags, as non-antagonists would get banned for doing it, even if it was because of IC conflict.

Escalation policy actively made the game worse by making murder so common that you couldnt even use it to tell who was an antagonist or not. Murder wasnt just the best solution it was always eventually the only solution.

You cant expect situations to be solved in character when all in character interaction is inevitably reduced to combat. That is not a fun roleplaying game, that is a shitty one.

Dr_bee wrote:

Gamarr wrote:

oranges wrote:it's a bit disappointing some admins in this thread are being so disrespectful.

You've said people can deal with it IC without really laying out what that looks like.

People are right in that the framework for actually stopping most tg players begins and ends with killing them and disposing of the body so they can't come back because there are literally no reasons to fear most "punishments" you can mete out, so saying you can deal with it IC without actually killing them is at best disingenuous and at worst just outright wrong.

Shadowflame909 wrote: There's no winning

Escalation allowing murder basically made non-murder methods of punishment impossible, as demoting someone basically gives them a reason to attack you which will inevitably escalate to someone dying.

The reason murder by non-antags used to get you day-bans was because it helped keep death and murder serious in character. Murder was a serious in game tell for antags, as non-antagonists would get banned for doing it, even if it was because of IC conflict.

Escalation policy actively made the game worse by making murder so common that you couldnt even use it to tell who was an antagonist or not. Murder wasnt just the best solution it was always eventually the only solution.

You cant expect situations to be solved in character when all in character interaction is inevitably reduced to combat. That is not a fun roleplaying game, that is a shitty one.

1: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Escalation
Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

Kor said that that part of escalation does apply to heads demoting people for valid reasons as well IIRC but its been so long I've probably forgotten so that point is invalid

2: Would you rather have people metagame and focus on antags by seeing murder=antagonist? It's meant to push away from antagonists being the central point of the game with how liberal the use of force is now, not to mention the overall reduction in crew stuns reducing nonlethal capacity.

3: The point of escalation in nature is that it is meant to be tit for tat, if you don't respond to the other party's escalation you wont get escalated on and vice versa. If they get to a bad enough degree or break some of the other no-no points(Breaking into your high security department) you can basically get away with killing them, and if they come back for another fight you can generally permanently destroy their body. If you dont want to be murdered don't respond to their tat and if they kill/crit you over genuinely nothing they're likley to get boinked to chill out

oranges wrote:it's a bit disappointing some admins in this thread are being so disrespectful.

You've said people can deal with it IC without really laying out what that looks like.

People are right in that the framework for actually stopping most tg players begins and ends with killing them and disposing of the body so they can't come back because there are literally no reasons to fear most "punishments" you can mete out, so saying you can deal with it IC without actually killing them is at best disingenuous and at worst just outright wrong.

Unironically making sec deal with ic crime or making admins ban people is the only true solution to this scenario and either option requires the admins to punish and push for something

though I do agree that most of escalation policy isn't well described, some of it is pretty simple(tit for tat bit) while others are pretty minor edits onto escalation policy that require you to have actually interacted with the headmins a year or two ago to elaborate on the nuances of it

Tbh I unironically feel like the propagation of ghost roles kinda helps lessen the impact of death because it always exists as a respawn opportunity if the round goes on for longer than 30 minutes(average round attention spam on bagil)