/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

When should it be allowed and when should it not? Should it be solved by IC means or be punished by us admins due to rule 1?

I would like an answer to the above since not many people are aware that low pop murderboning is frowned upon. Please use this thread to discuss the topic as well as the above questions too!

I'm good at forum posts and trimmed off your "you're not going to get empty servers unless" line where you seem to be having trouble understanding that the instance we're discussing /does/ empty servers and would still do so even if there were an ERT potentially sent. Either you're too new to know or just don't play during lowpop hours to know what you're talking about.

That you can't understand why rewarding a player for silently and systematically depopulating the server is bad speaks probably to your preferred playstyle more than anything but I'll take another swing at explaining it. If (very strong "supposedly" here), the claim is true that players silently murderbone+recall because they want a "challenge" (which they apparently get from killing a lot of unaware people one at a time until there are no other unaware people on the server) and we've determined that this playstyle results in people just leaving the server rather than joining a blob of ghosts orbiting the latest powergamer flexing their KDR in a roleplaying game, why would coders or admins take steps that would provide that challenge as a product of that player's actions that resulted in the bad situation in the first place? You don't provide the thing that a person wants after they do a thing that you don't want them to do. Doing this as an automated system doesn't help you either because not only are you automating the process of giving the player doing the undesired activity a reward (the thing they supposedly wanted from the start) you're doing it in a way that they can avoid entirely by further gaming the system in an arbitrary way.

Next you'll say "well, if they try to game the automated system then admins can just step in and do it manually" and you've thus explained why the automated system wasn't needed in the first place. If admins were present then why would they need to automate anything? If admins aren't present, then who is going to step in?

As I said before, the last time somebody was banned for this (to my knowledge) was 2016 and they were a persistent and chronic case. Servers /did/ empty out for the better part of 1-2 hours every time the guy rolled antag because they'd do it when no admins were on to tell them not to. Not that the presence of an admin would change your perception of events anyway since you believe that Rule 4 should be sacrosanct and protect the "rights" of an antag over the general health of the server. This is why I've always rather disliked Rule 4 is verbage and in concept. Rule 1 is an OOC rule, not an IC rule. The understanding is that we as players are all on the server to have a good time and share interesting stories and such. Low-pop silent murderboninig is fun for exactly one person and is conducive to the opposite of a good time and interesting stories. If you want a shallow BR experience I hear Fortnite is still popular and has substantially better gunplay.

cedarbridge wrote:I'm good at forum posts and trimmed off your "you're not going to get empty servers unless" line where you seem to be having trouble understanding that the instance we're discussing /does/ empty servers and would still do so even if there were an ERT potentially sent. Either you're too new to know or just don't play during lowpop hours to know what you're talking about.

Do I need to put the SEND IN AN UN-RECALLABLE SHUTTLE ALSO in bold text there u go. unless babies are assmad you're not gonna clear the server with hard limits set on how long people are gonna be orbiting. I literally only play during lowpop hours and I've seen murderbone. I've also stopped murderbone because I pay attention to the game around me.

cedarbridge wrote: That you can't understand why rewarding a player for silently and systematically depopulating the server is bad speaks probably to your preferred playstyle more than anything

I've murderboned maybe 3 times as antag, I generally don't like taking people out of the round unless they threaten the same. Refer to my previous post to Karp for the reasoning behind the ERT but you've already missed plenty of what I've posted. I don't believe killing a bunch of babies who don't even attempt to stop the antag or are even aware he exists to be something people should be punished for. Antags usually do things like turn you horizontal.

cedarbridge wrote: Next you'll say "well, if they try to game the automated system then admins can just step in and do it manually"

If you're going to "game the system" by keeping a certain percentage of players alive then you're not really doing anything that would necessitate the system to activate in the first place. If people end up killing themselves out of boredom then here ya go, new round.

cedarbridge wrote: As I said before, the last time somebody was banned for this (to my knowledge) was 2016 and they were a persistent and chronic case. Servers /did/ empty out for the better part of 1-2 hours every time the guy rolled antag because they'd do it when no admins were on to tell them not to.

Never said it hasn't been a problem in the past, which is why I offered an idea for a code solution to help relieve the amount of damage the more extreme cases have the potential to cause.

Low Pop murderboning is just a bit hard to define because there are few metrics to use for the player (although I still think it's pretty cruddy).

The obvious is eyeballing it, you can tell it's lowpop when you haven't painted the station red yet but it looks empty.

There's crew manifest, you can tell it's lowpop by methodically counting and hope you reach a magic number. Can't recall if you can ICly edit it or not.

There's who, but that isn't an actual how many people are playing.

Not to say these aren't sufficient tools combined but if you are looking to make a hard line in the sand do realize there's room for error on the player's part (admins have check antags, which give discrete numbers).

Not like there's even low-pop anymore, even at 2:30 in the morning as of this post, both servers have more than 40 people, probably not all players but the point remains

I find that rule 4 pretty much shuts down any argument, you want to fix this "problem", go have rule 4 amended

Bagil literally goes to 0 on most days of the week not long from now

As with all things this is shades of grey.

It's not like you're going to get in trouble on low pop for killing, or even killing a lot of people, but if you're going out of your way to delay the round indefinitely and try to make things crawl to a halt then you're going to run afoul of rule 1.

This is not something you can really bump into accidentally by just "killing people".

It's not actually about rule 4. I'm a big supporter of rule 4 and hate seeing it infringed on, but I see this as something that gives one player enjoyment at the cost of the whole server. Lowpop murderboning isn't a crime, needlessly extending the round while everyone's dead is. It's not a big issue as long as the player calls the shuttle instead of leaving it uncalled and needlessly extending the round to increase his K/D.

BeeSting12 wrote:It's not actually about rule 4. I'm a big supporter of rule 4 and hate seeing it infringed on, but I see this as something that gives one player enjoyment at the cost of the whole server. Lowpop murderboning isn't a crime, needlessly extending the round while everyone's dead is. It's not a big issue as long as the player calls the shuttle instead of leaving it uncalled and needlessly extending the round to increase his K/D.

The reason Rule 4 gets invoked is because it is viewed as an all-cases-inclusive "No Rules" pass. Until that perception is changed, people will assume it applies to this as well.

cedarbridge wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:It's not actually about rule 4. I'm a big supporter of rule 4 and hate seeing it infringed on, but I see this as something that gives one player enjoyment at the cost of the whole server. Lowpop murderboning isn't a crime, needlessly extending the round while everyone's dead is. It's not a big issue as long as the player calls the shuttle instead of leaving it uncalled and needlessly extending the round to increase his K/D.

The reason Rule 4 gets invoked is because it is viewed as an all-cases-inclusive "No Rules" pass. Until that perception is changed, people will assume it applies to this as well.

But that's what it should be (outside of meta-rules like bugs/ERP/metacomms etc). Free antags are a defining trait of /tg/station and one of the things that make the server great.

Antagonists are literally the bad guys and should be making everyone else mad and dead.

Deal with it IC.

I hate to agree with Sticky but he put it better than I did

Stickymayhem wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:It's not actually about rule 4. I'm a big supporter of rule 4 and hate seeing it infringed on, but I see this as something that gives one player enjoyment at the cost of the whole server. Lowpop murderboning isn't a crime, needlessly extending the round while everyone's dead is. It's not a big issue as long as the player calls the shuttle instead of leaving it uncalled and needlessly extending the round to increase his K/D.

The reason Rule 4 gets invoked is because it is viewed as an all-cases-inclusive "No Rules" pass. Until that perception is changed, people will assume it applies to this as well.

But that's what it should be (outside of meta-rules like bugs/ERP/metacomms etc). Free antags are a defining trait of /tg/station and one of the things that make the server great.

Antagonists are literally the bad guys and should be making everyone else mad and dead.

Deal with it IC.

Which is why, as already discussed, we ended up with entirely empty servers as everyone already dead just moved to the other server while Traitor McDick recalled the shuttle for the Nth time. You've been around long enough to know that it happened and know why it was a problem. This continues to be a thing and happens typically when there isn't an admin around to intervene in some way. At some point things have to give because nothing about that scenario "makes the server great."

So overall it seems like the problem isn't low pop murderboning but delaying the round by spam recalling and ensuring the shuttle isn't called, a completely different issue.

Yes there's 2 different arguments going on
People directly responding to Morto who said murderboning itself is a problem
Karp and Cedarbridge responding to people by saying "no, murderbone with delaying is bad tho", which isn't the topic

Malkraz wrote:Yes there's 2 different arguments going on
People directly responding to Morto who said murderboning itself is a problem
Karp and Cedarbridge responding to people by saying "no, murderbone with delaying is bad tho", which isn't the topic

A distinction without a difference: one is a product of the other. We don't ban people for recalling the shuttle "needlessly" if they haven't already systematically genocided the station first.

cedarbridge wrote:

Malkraz wrote:Yes there's 2 different arguments going on
People directly responding to Morto who said murderboning itself is a problem
Karp and Cedarbridge responding to people by saying "no, murderbone with delaying is bad tho", which isn't the topic

A distinction without a difference: one is a product of the other. We don't ban people for recalling the shuttle "needlessly" if they haven't already systematically genocided the station first.

Untrue, delaying clearly doomed rounds by recalling incessantly can warrant a bwoink

In fact we have a specific precedent on the rules page telling you that the admins may fuck with you mercilessly for repeated recalling

Admins have intervened before and will do so again in situations where a player regardless of antag status has repeatedly delayed round-end by recalling the shuttle when most other players are dead or want to leave.

I have outed the names and locations of antags to the crew when they hide in maintenance with a hidden console recalling like little bitches

did you try just killing the antag lol

terranaut wrote:did you try just killing the antag lol

Kill this!
*unzips instastun weaponry and activates adrenals*

tinodrima7020 wrote:

terranaut wrote:did you try just killing the antag lol

Kill this!
*unzips instastun weaponry and activates adrenals*

nothin personnel, kid

tinodrima7020 wrote:

terranaut wrote:did you try just killing the antag lol

Kill this!
*unzips instastun weaponry and activates adrenals*

*adrenals, low pop*

From what im reading it doesnt seem to be a problem with murder boning but with mass recalling the shuttle over and over. Which is a different issue. Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag. Just because one shitter is mass recalling doesnt seem to be a good enough reason to change a rule which makes TG stand out from other servers. only my opinion though.

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

Oh yes Paradise, Yogstation and Citadel have antags but no rule like our rule 4.
If someone is tired of playing on tg they should play on those servers instead for a more peaceful gaming experience.

beestation has a no murderboning rule too and it’s basically discount TG

If you ruin the freedom that comes with being an antag and fighting someone who is an antag, I'll probably just not play here anymore.

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

Thats not what I said but okie. TG allows antags to be free to do whatever. Seems like you care less about the actual topic and rather you just dislike rule 4 in general which again is a different topic.

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

worst post of the thread

I disagree pk, I think

Whoneedspacee wrote:If you ruin the freedom that comes with being an antag and fighting someone who is an antag, I'll probably just not play here anymore.

Is much worse. Ultimatums are bad enough in a relationship, but “dont do this or i wont play” is a pathetic reason to argue something.

Naloac wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

Thats not what I said but okie. TG allows antags to be free to do whatever. Seems like you care less about the actual topic and rather you just dislike rule 4 in general which again is a different topic.

"Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag"

If they somehow have antags that are not antags then what in the hell do words even mean anymore.

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

Thats not what I said but okie. TG allows antags to be free to do whatever. Seems like you care less about the actual topic and rather you just dislike rule 4 in general which again is a different topic.

"Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag"

If they somehow have antags that are not antags then what in the hell do words even mean anymore.

para antags follow all the normal rules, and only get exceptions for carrying out their objectives specifically. (no, killing in self defense doesn't count as towards your objective)

imsxz wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

Thats not what I said but okie. TG allows antags to be free to do whatever. Seems like you care less about the actual topic and rather you just dislike rule 4 in general which again is a different topic.

"Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag"

If they somehow have antags that are not antags then what in the hell do words even mean anymore.

para antags follow all the normal rules, and only get exceptions for carrying out their objectives specifically. (no, killing in self defense doesn't count as towards your objective)

Para also bans people for dying the wrong way so that's hardly an administration you'll convince me to support.

Para is straight retarded as well.

"NO, YOU CAN'T KILL THE ENTIRE SEC TEAM WITH A DEATH ALARM THAT BLARES OUT THEIR LOCATION OF DEATH, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE STUN BATONNING YOU AND TASING YOU. SUCK IT ANTAG"

It's actually valid hunter heaven.

cedarbridge wrote:

imsxz wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Naloac wrote:Rule 4 is also one of the great things about TG. Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag.

Apparently servers without this rule don't have antags. The more you know.

Thats not what I said but okie. TG allows antags to be free to do whatever. Seems like you care less about the actual topic and rather you just dislike rule 4 in general which again is a different topic.

"Allowing an antag to actually ya know be an antag"

If they somehow have antags that are not antags then what in the hell do words even mean anymore.

para antags follow all the normal rules, and only get exceptions for carrying out their objectives specifically. (no, killing in self defense doesn't count as towards your objective)

Para also bans people for dying the wrong way so that's hardly an administration you'll convince me to support.

im not convincing you to support them you asked how they can have antags that arent allowed to antag

Like every time this comes up, the answer is Code. If you can murderbone with naught but a toolbox and your smile, you should be allowed to. Make it HARD to murderbone. Currently, a large part of the traitor arsenal is good for murderboning. Remove them. Add more stealthy options that require effort to kill people with, instead of just radio jammer esword stunprod.

the answer is not code, go back to tgmc