/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:37 pm**

Is there anything that could be done to do so? I was thinking about something like the contract kit for sec - successfully perma a traitor and get something in return (cash, guns, materials, etc).

I just think perma use makes for much more interesting rounds than shotgunning some random loser with an emag and leaving him to rot.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:40 pm**

what game action would trigger a check that determines

1) If they were worthy of perma

2) If they weren't killed right after getting the perma dosh

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:45 pm**

I don't like the idea of having something that can tell if someone is an antagonist, or a blind mechanic that accepts anyone for rewards. Both incentivise unfun playstyles.

Honestly, this is more of a rule thing along the lines of "hey, maybe you should follow due process and try to arrest the guy first before you separate him from this mortal coil you overweight, violator of doughnuts".

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:45 pm**

Why would you deny a chimp sec main their valids and false sense of power?

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:34 am**

If someone is not an antag and not a complete shitter, gulag him to pay for the damages and annoyance he caused.

If someone is an antag you can't let him loose ever. Borg him. Don't waste his brain.

There is no reason to jail and waste people's time.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:12 am**

If the dynamic game mode gets fully implemented it has an in built method for incentivizing perma over killing and borging in that murdering an antag opens up the threat slots used to spawn them for a ghost or latejoin.

So in dynamic, you are better off keeping tabs on a confirmed antagonist than murdering them and not having any idea who the antag is anymore.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:51 am**

Another issue is that is currently a bit too easy to escape from perma on meta.

I would like to see sec use perma more, i usually only get permad if i greytide.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:02 pm**

Anuv wrote:Is there anything that could be done to do so?

Make perma not piss easy to escape by yourself. I'd much rather execute a traitor than put him in a room where I know he's going to not be 5 minutes from now and instead roaming free on the station.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:32 pm**

It would help if perma produced something useful for the station (and without needing lots of logistics effort and constant babysitting)

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:45 pm**

CPTANT wrote:It would help if perma produced something useful for the station (and without needing lots of logistics effort and constant babysitting)

add that big wheel thing from conan the barbarian

and give the warden a whip

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:34 pm**

Could just add stuff for prisoners to do in perma and if they actually do it, it puts money in the defense budget.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:15 pm**

Anonmare wrote:"hey, maybe you should follow due process and try to arrest the guy first before you separate him from this mortal coil you overweight, violator of doughnuts".

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:22 am**

Removing people from the round when they don't threaten the same is pure cuckold behavior

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:45 am**

Add a treadmill that generates power if a crewmember is running on it in Perma.

This becomes a backup-backup power source to security if engineers are shit or a power-siphon happens

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:37 am**

Secs reward for hunting valids is that people can enjoy their round in peace. Its completely up to an officer, and while people who execute for someone existing as a traitor are goons, they are allowed to be.

That is to say any sort of in game reward for sec hunting traitors would be a bad idea.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:15 am**

why not just make execution have a downside over perma, instead of vice versa

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:51 am**

I actually didn't read the whole topic title

The trick is actually to not brig them at all. Just take their shit, give them a tracking implant, and let them loose. Warn them next time they find their way in brig, they're done.

I release pacifist/non-harmful traitors all the time (albeit without their TC). Often I'll even give their objective (back) if it was a steal objective just to give them extra reason to be nice. If they tell me their target, I'll just warn the target (if he's still alive) and maybe even arm them.

If they come back in a death mech or something, at least they'll have brought something more interesting then ebow esword.

Just straight up murdering every traitor regardless of how hostile they are is a smooth-brain move and quickly makes rounds stale.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:10 am**

I'm getting a headache reading that quote attached to Marisa's name and avatar

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:52 pm**

CPTANT wrote:It would help if perma produced something useful for the station (and without needing lots of logistics effort and constant babysitting)

Isn't this just the penal colony? Honestly would be fine with removing the perma space of brig and just having life-time penal sentences be the replacement.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:08 pm**

Muncher21 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:It would help if perma produced something useful for the station (and without needing lots of logistics effort and constant babysitting)
Isn't this just the penal colony? Honestly would be fine with removing the perma space of brig and just having life-time penal sentences be the replacement.

but at that point the person in there isn't going to do anything they'll just sit around cuz they know theyre not getting out by any means except a break out and thats just harder to watch then using perma so that would just make people do execution even more.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:37 pm**

This is really a code issue, not a policy one - there's no real policy that can alter the fundamental arithmetic of what you do with an antagonist, short of heavy handed "don't execute traitors!!" rules which tend to do more harm then good to the situation.

Posted: **Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:58 pm**

Arianya wrote:This is really a code issue, not a policy one - there's no real policy that can alter the fundamental arithmetic of what you do with an antagonist, short of heavy handed "don't execute traitors!!" rules which tend to do more harm then good to the situation.

I agree with the second bit, but some people would disagree that it would do more harm than good, so it is still a policy discussion

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:58 am**

If there are three antags in perma at round end the HOS should get a shiny medal in the round-end report

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:11 pm**

Maybe perma shouldn't be so piss easy to escape from, then? Yeah, I get it; "the station is flawed on purpose to give antags a better chance," but the ease of which someone can escape both perma and the gulag is the main reason security tend to not use them.

Then there's the separate issue of having no reason to not just ghost out once you're in perma if you're not robust enough to break out. I'd love to see a policy discussion on that, honestly. At the moment, the only "mercy" security can realistically give to a traitor is a borging, since perma/gulag are non-options, and execution is complete removal.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:35 pm**

Kinda lame tbh that we have to make perma near-equivalent to death for people to not choose 100% confirmed no way to return into the round.

based rule 4

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:18 pm**

deedubya wrote:Maybe perma shouldn't be so piss easy to escape from, then? Yeah, I get it; "the station is flawed on purpose to give antags a better chance," but the ease of which someone can escape both perma and the gulag is the main reason security tend to not use them.

The problem here isn't "they're easy to escape from", the problem is the mindset that the antag being able to escape is a bad thing. Yes, it's bad IC because bad man do bad thing, but it's good from a gameplay perspective because then you get gameplay. Execution is completely understandable when someone is threatening round removal, but I've seen it done to people for absolutely dumbfuck B-BUT SEC POLICY ALLOWS ME TO reasons.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:53 pm**

Here's a hot take.

What if the warden...did their job...and like...patrolled...the...brig...unless...?

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:35 am**

The incentive is watching one criminal beat another criminal to death with a chair and some soap through the perma camera

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:07 am**

Malkraz wrote:
deedubya wrote:Maybe perma shouldn't be so piss easy to escape from, then? Yeah, I get it; "the station is flawed on purpose to give antags a better chance," but the ease of which someone can escape both perma and the gulag is the main reason security tend to not use them.
The problem here isn't "they're easy to escape from", the problem is the mindset that the antag being able to escape is a bad thing. Yes, it's bad IC because bad man do bad thing, but it's good from a gameplay perspective because then you get gameplay. Execution is completely understandable when someone is threatening round removal, but I've seen it done to people for absolutely dumbfuck B-BUT SEC POLICY ALLOWS ME TO reasons.

This server also has a major issue with gameplay bleeding into IC on a constant basis. If it was purely in character, perma would be used way more. But since we know OOC that anyone we stuff in perma will be running around free in a couple minutes, it's wasted space.

As for the latter point, again you have OOC bleeding into IC. People know that traitors typically have "kill person" as an objective and thus constantly threaten round removal. On top of that, people know that the act of even being an antag is a license to grief and kill. So people will always choose the most effective way of doing their job as security(read: prevent people from committing crime) by simply removing the possibility of it occurring again. There are exceptions to this mindset, naturally.(eg. we perma'd someone on Sybil a couple nights ago for non-lethal grand sabotage, then found out he was innocent and wound up letting him go) But unless the server culture as a whole or the usefulness of the permabrig change, I don't see any potential incentive working. Unless we're going to start bwoinking sec players for """unwarranted""" capital punishment.(fun fact: if you were eligible for permabrigging, you were also eligible for borging/execution)

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:32 pm**

A recent note/ahelp involving me has lead me to realise that its become far more comon for security (any security) to just right up execute anyone given the right set of escalation/law breaking.
Now to me this is partly the fault of escalation in general. But its also a wider span of security being extremely heavy handed.

Let me state now that I like playing sec, I admit in someways its got harder due to the lack of consistent stuns (i.e. no tasers anymore), but its also got easier in that MOST rounds have a fairly well stocked sec department (in both gear and staff). Given that security have been given loads of free non lethal options why is there this tendency towards lethal solutions? I think the lack of real security rules policy has a lot to say, the way its currently worded is not very well laid out and it honestly isnt clear in a lot of comon sec situations.

My solution to this would to have a clear laid out process for sec. HoS and Captain should be most able to be above this due to their positions, but then we'd have to expect those positions to be played by a higher calibre of people.
Honestly I dont understand why anyone has the ability to be able to kill anyone unless they're an antag or the HoS or captain? Is this due to cloning being so comon place?

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:46 pm**

Well the contract kit was based on the notion of giving an incentive for a more enjoyable playstyle for the crew with lots of small, but direct interactions with crew, less murderbone, and an experience that was enjoyable for traitors.

You could try going a similar way with antags by making an incentive to give larger interactions, but with a smaller amount of people, e.g. the two traitors you might capture in perma. Perhaps the longer confirmed traitors are in perma you're given supplies/information, with confirmation coming with fingerprint reports submitted along with syndie items recovered that belonged to them etc. Gives the the detective a larger role, a reason to check on perma every so often (warden gets to stay in brig with something to do), and the syndie gets a CI like role after capture.

/tg/ isn't roleplay oriented so you basically need mechanics to hold your hand, and give reasons not to kill that guy you /know/ is valid. CI like role imo is the way to go - keeping that guy alive might make it easier to bring in those other traitors out there. But then you need to balance this around the unfairness of traitor#2 getting punished because of traitor#1 being caught in a gamemode that's solo antag.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:19 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote:Honestly I dont understand why anyone has the ability to be able to kill anyone unless they're an antag or the HoS or captain? Is this due to cloning being so comon place?

it's because of this:

The rules wrote:4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

and this

Security Policy wrote:2. Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Security are not exceptions to the rule where non-antagonists can do anything they want, as per rule 4, to antagonists.
3. The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:30 pm**

teepeepee wrote:-snip-

"Acting like an antag gets you treated like an antag"
Let me ask you this: when was the last time you heard a officer being arrested/perma'd/executed by other security because they broke in somewhere/Stole something/killed someone?
Being "treated like an antag" doesnt really mean much other than you risk arrest or death, but those threats are MAINLY from security and ultimately most security will (rightly) team up and over look stuff.

I understand other departments (to an extent) having this rule, but security litterally start with stun weapons, armor and restraining devices.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:27 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote:
teepeepee wrote:-snip-
"Acting like an antag gets you treated like an antag"
Let me ask you this: when was the last time you heard a officer being arrested/perma'd/executed by other security because they broke in somewhere/Stole something/killed someone?
Being "treated like an antag" doesnt really mean much other than you risk arrest or death, but those threats are MAINLY from security and ultimately most security will (rightly) team up and over look stuff.

I understand other departments (to an extent) having this rule, but security litterally start with stun weapons, armor and restraining devices.

what are you talking about? 9/10 times I die to a non antag it isn't an officer, it's an assistant or assistant+(curator, medic, engineer, clown, mime) that kills me
I'm not complaining, it's hoe the rules allow players to act and I believe it is perfectly fine
trying to add snowflake prohibitions to sec will just make it so no one plays sec and just validhunts as another role
I play sec and I see mutinies and demotions all the time when an officer is being a shithead too, late night/early morning in bagil

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:32 am**

teepeepee wrote:
peoplearestrange wrote:
teepeepee wrote:-snip-
"Acting like an antag gets you treated like an antag"
Let me ask you this: when was the last time you heard a officer being arrested/perma'd/executed by other security because they broke in somewhere/Stole something/killed someone?
Being "treated like an antag" doesnt really mean much other than you risk arrest or death, but those threats are MAINLY from security and ultimately most security will (rightly) team up and over look stuff.

I understand other departments (to an extent) having this rule, but security litterally start with stun weapons, armor and restraining devices.
what are you talking about? 9/10 times I die to a non antag it isn't an officer, it's an assistant or assistant+(curator, medic, engineer, clown, mime) that kills me
I'm not complaining, it's hoe the rules allow players to act and I believe it is perfectly fine
trying to add snowflake prohibitions to sec will just make it so no one plays sec and just validhunts as another role
I play sec and I see mutinies and demotions all the time when an officer is being a shithead too, late night/early morning in bagil

Hmm I see what you mean, TBH I wouldn't want people to dump sec to play another in order to do the same job. And sec's role is basically to be the anti-antag to make their life harder/challenging. But I'd say part of the challenge is in making things non final. Killing someone and gibbing there body sure does stop an antag but it also puts rest to that challenge until more are spawned in. But if theres a risk of one escaping perma, or getting their own back from the gluag, that could be interesting?
I guess what I'm saying is the less people perma removed from the round the more enjoyable time that everyone can have. Partically in a game where people realise after a time, that its not about the green text, its about the stories we get to play.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:38 pm**

space law IC suggestion LOL

In all seriousness, if you're a traitor/ling/antag and ask me to perma/gulag you after we're sure you've killed people I won't hesitate in sending you straight to the spectator script with a stun baton.

"Non-harmful" traitors are most of the time ignoring their objectives completely and make things either dull, boring or annoying to deal with. Play the antagonist role right or don't play it at all.

Posted: **Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:39 pm**

angelstarri wrote:. Play the antagonist role right or don't play it at all.

"Play the antagonist role the way I want you to play or don't play with me"
It's almost as if there's no such thing as emergent gaming or doing something different

Posted: **Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:42 pm**

angelstarri wrote:space law IC suggestion LOL

In all seriousness, if you're a traitor/ling/antag and ask me to perma/gulag you after we're sure you've killed people I won't hesitate in sending you straight to the spectator script with a stun baton.

"Non-harmful" traitors are most of the time ignoring their objectives completely and make things either dull, boring or annoying to deal with. Play the antagonist role right or don't play it at all.

"If you killed people i'm executing you; and if you didn't, you should have, it's dull and boring if i don't get to execute anyone"

Posted: **Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:18 pm**

you're talking to an inSECtoid what do you expect

Posted: **Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:12 pm**

XDTM wrote:
angelstarri wrote:space law IC suggestion LOL

In all seriousness, if you're a traitor/ling/antag and ask me to perma/gulag you after we're sure you've killed people I won't hesitate in sending you straight to the spectator script with a stun baton.

"Non-harmful" traitors are most of the time ignoring their objectives completely and make things either dull, boring or annoying to deal with. Play the antagonist role right or don't play it at all.
"If you killed people i'm executing you; and if you didn't, you should have, it's dull and boring if i don't get to execute anyone"

I think they imply that you should stealthfully kill people if you want to not be executed by them.

However that would make things dull, boring, or annoying to deal with. I don't think there is any winning in this situation.

Posted: **Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:25 am**

Let's see, escaping out of perma requires a spacewalk from perma to arrivals. I tried it out on a private server on meta station. It's noted that donut requires a much longer spacewalk.

What I did was as follows: I broke a window inside perma, grabbed the shard. Then I went to the shower, broke the window with a chair, then used the shard to destroy the grille. I cooked all the donk pockets, at some to heal up. Then I took 3 donk pockets with me and space walked to arrivals, using the healing of the donk pockets to counteract the cold and the vacuum of space. I had red health by the time I arrived at arrivals.

I don't think this is feasible without donk pockets. So, if you want to make perma harder to escape from, just take out the donk pockets.

Posted: **Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:49 am**

Stillplant wrote:I don't think this is feasible without donk pockets. So, if you want to make perma harder to escape from, just take out the donk pockets.

There's a closer entrance than arrivals and you don't need donk pockets to get there.

Posted: **Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:25 pm**

Why does Perma brig have any donk pockets at all? The prisoners are supposed to be eating nasty tofu from the sustenance vendor

Posted: **Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:15 pm**

The problem with perma is that putting a prisoner in there will result in one of two possible cases occurring (99% of the time):
1. The prisoner knows how to (and is able to) escape from perma (or whatever prison situation you put them in). They will escape relatively quickly and try to hunt you down to get their revenge.
2. The prisoner does not know how to (or is unable to) escape from perma, and remains there for the rest of the round with nothing to do but grow terrible perma plants and beg other people for help. How is imprisoning someone in an inescapable prison really that different from death? This is why so many prisoners commit suicide or ghost upon being perma'd; being a ghost is much more entertaining than rotting in a perma cell, since you can at least observe the round and/or spawn in as a ghost role. The prisoners who DON'T commit suicide, ghost, or escape have a miserable time as they desperately hope to be saved by someone, yet slowly lose that hope over time and become incredibly unsatisfied/frustrated/bored.

Perma'ing someone is worse and arguably MORE CRUEL than killing them, and I NEVER do it as a warden. If someone does something bad enough to deserve perma or an execution, they've done something bad enough to deserve becoming forceborged, which benefits sec much, much more than throwing the prisoner in a perma cell does anyway. You can law 2 them to tell you their uplink code and the code words, you can tweak their laws and then order them to rat out their co-conspirators, you can force the prisoner to be a productive (and useful) member of society, you distract robotics from making their grief mechs... Oh, and being a borg is infinitely more fun for the prisoner than waiting/begging in GBJ for someone to take pity on you and break/let you out.

In short, we shouldn't be incentivizing PERMA over execution... we should instead be incentivizing FORCEBORGING over execution (then again, there are already many incentives to forceborg someone instead of lock them in GBJ, so perhaps we should just do an awareness campaign or something instead...).

Posted: **Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:26 am**

Shadowflame909 wrote:Add a treadmill that generates power if a crewmember is running on it in Perma.

This becomes a backup-backup power source to security if engineers are shit or a power-siphon happens

I was gonna make a suggestion, but when I wrote it out it just sounded like your idea, so +1

Posted: **Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:29 am**

traitors are executed because they can do whatever they want with impunity (OOC protection) and you rely on a good-faith exchange for them to not immediately max cap the brig after you let them go or put them somewhere you know theyll escape from.

the only way to incentivize perma is make it actually permanent and impossible to escape.

I suspect you'll find much less people here advocating for incentivizing something over death that is just as inescapable.

put a gateway or something in that whisks them away to a far away land to explore and never return

Posted: **Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:42 am**

There are several more enticing options for security to keep people in the round rather than killing or permabrigging if they've done something worthy of capital:

1. Letting them go if they aren't a threat (best option)
2. Letting them go without their TC and after they've ratted out their buddies (They get to play the round and sec gets to valid the other people. If they want to accomplish their objectives, it's hardmode.
3. Full stripping them and throwing them out to get a new job (Very irritating but sometimes nice, creates interesting conflict later on if they aren't an antag (gives them reason to get revenge)
4. Helping them do their objectives "The Syndicate Took My Family!" style. One of my favorites.
5. Giving them a tracking and chemical implant, telling them that they work for security now (Really neat thing to do if the other player is cooperative).
6. Forceborging them
7. Gulagging them
8. Pacification surgery (works more often than you would think)
9. Gladiator-style Trial By Combat (Very entertaining for the crew)
10. (tens of emergent solutions specific to your round)

Permabrigging is not interesting, it's there so someone can kill themselves venting it, escape, or alt-tab to do something else while they wait in the vain hope that someone will rescue them.

The only thing that I could see legitimately incentivizing sec to use the perma brig is if after a certain time in perma someone's antag status was removed, but even then it would get gamed the heck out of.

The only thing I could see incentivizing perma (other than escape) is by having several interesting set dressings that can be played around with just like if they were on their own station and then also have more than one person be in perma. Having to interact with other players in that isolated setting might be interesting for anybody that doesn't plan to unga dunga murderbone. Even then I don't think it trumps most of the list I made above.

*EDIT* As an example, giving the permabrig a newscaster, camera, and other related things may prove interesting as well as re-balancing the perma plants. Giving them a mini cargo bay (delivered by pod) with budget made from their products could also be interesting. Allowing them a mini-experimentor to contribute to research could be cool as well as their own set of xenobio mobs (yeah that could get crazy I know).

Posted: **Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:27 pm**

Pacification surgery is sorely underused. It still allows for traitorous activity but no outright violence, so the traitor has to get creative. There probably should be a note on the space law wiki page about it being a preferable alternative to murder or borging

Posted: **Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:06 pm**

John_Gobbel wrote:The only thing that I could see legitimately incentivizing sec to use the perma brig is if after a certain time in perma someone's antag status was removed, but even then it would get gamed the heck out of.

This idea has some potential, actually. Say after 10 minutes of being in perma, it gives you an automated message over security comms saying "Jimmy Greyshirt has been reformed by the correctional facility". This would cause 5 minutes of forced pacifism to both antags and non-antags, and remove antag objectives for actual antags. The message will display regardless of if the person incarcerated was innocent or not, and only after the "reformation time" has been served, so you can't meta/powergame the system by just tossing everyone in there and letting them out only on a confirmation of traitor status. It'd also give the warden something to do besides setting arrest statuses and building turrets in the armory. Having them monitor perma for potential breakouts would be a lot more active for them. Aside: Maybe have it work for headrevs as well?

That being said, none of this is actual policy. It'd have to be code. Maybe I should throw this up on the code ideas forum.

Posted: **Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:47 pm**

We already have an admin only Men in Black Memory Eraser device. That's a variant of a flash.

Just have it remove all notes and alliegances (Including mindshields) and have it be only one in stock.

Remove an antag and keep them in the round.

/tg/Station 13

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Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors

Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors

Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors

Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors

Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors

Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors

Re: Incentivizing perma over execution for non-harmful traitors