/tg/Station 13

Individuals with little to no RECENT dynamic experience need not apply. The gamemode has gotten constant updates and tweaking, and I believe it has reached a good point where it typically maintains secret-levels of "chaos".

My biggest issue with secret is that it's so incredibly easy to metagame antagonists, even at a subconscious level. Consider the following hypothetical: An antagonist attempts to fool security into thinking there's a cult with a very clever tactic; narsour, dagger+metal from lavaland, cutting comms, the whole 9 yards. Enter Randy McChangeling, he bursts into the brig, armblade drawn. Security now knows that there is no cult, because there can't be a cult and lings at the same time.

That was a complete hypothetical but I believe it gets the point across - secret takes a LOT of paranoia out of the game, especially in what most would consider "TDM" modes, where the loyalists can generally know to all trust each other no matter what and just shoot non-implanted or whatever. Of course, my point here is that in dynamic, you're still kept on your toes.

A smaller point, but one that I can appreciate as someone that plays security a decent amount, is that rounds aren't destined to be snoozefests after a cult gets caught 2 minutes in. There's still opportunities for the round to spiral into something interesting.

Finally, a great feature I believe anyone can appreciate, dynamic does away with most of the dreaded random round endings. In dynamic, no antagonists deaths end the round, allowing much more potential for construction projects, mining, xenobiology, etc. at least from a personal experience, I avoid longer projects in general unless it's announced extended, due to how common it is to roll either revs, wizard, or nukies in secret, which can end at any given second.

As for frequent criticisms of dynamic, a lot of the issues have been resolved. Without exceptionally high threat, if there's for example a wizard, there generally wont be more than 1-3 traitors depending on population, sometimes there wont even be extra traitors. The idea that dynamic is "constant rev nukie wiz cult" is EXTREMELY dated, it was toned down rather quickly, frequent dynamic players can attest you need high threat for the dreaded chaotic rounds.

Another common criticism, even from orange man himself, is that "it has antags that aren't designed to be mixed together". I understand the sentiment, but experiencing it first hand as an admin and a player, the only big conflicts people have is what objectives they're supposed to follow when they get converted to antag as a traitor/blood brother, or some really rare occurrences such as zombie cultists or revolutionaries with a head of staff blood brother. These sorts of issues are few and far between, infrequent enough that headmins haven't even needed to give a full ruling on lots of cases like that yet.

I encourage those not familiar with dynamic to use this thread to have whatever questions and worries you might have about it resolved.

Fuck you im not reading that

Just give dynamic a large weight in gamemode pool : )
- intellectual with minimal experience with dynamic

dynamic is not blessed by coders

oh also dynamic is on all servers

Ill miss summon guns/magic/events wizards but I do enjoy Dynamic over secret.

Cult is shit in dynamic however, thats my only complaint.

Dynamic gamemode is the best and most robust gamemode out there. Only people I have seen speaking against it are the ones who either a) don't play on Terry/game or b) have no clue what it is about. Having more threats adds to the game. There are plenty of times where the antags aren't adding anything to the round whether its a bunch of newfriends who spend 0 TC as a traitor or people trying to do some gimmick that takes time or just doesn't work out.

Believe it or not, but Dynamic on the worst day is still better than round after round of Secret Extended.

#bringbackdynamic

wesoda25 wrote:Fuck you im not reading that

Just give dynamic a large weight in gamemode pool : )
- intellectual with minimal experience with dynamic

Only people I have seen speaking against it are the ones who either a) don't play on Terry/game or b) have no clue what it is about.

Basically this, dynamic now is just secret+. It no longer is the 101 threat raging mages + lings cult that it was a week or two at first release. Its literally just secret without metagaming. Autism projects arent ruined by a wizard dying 5 minutes in and revs arent rolled with only 1 head (also making round end 5 minutes in). One point i heard was: "It's bad to only have one gamemode 24/7". Even when dynamic can AND DOES roll extended rounds and most rounds with only one traitor type. Round times are not different now than they were before, anyone who tells you otherwise has not playing dynamic after the first few weeks. Fuck sybil headjannies for joining the server for 2 minutes to disable dynamic because they didn't know how it worked. even tough it was already voted for ages ago and for it to only be voted on a round to round basis where the only people that voted against dynamic were the ones that didnt vote at all. Now even that was forbidden.

Fuck sybil headcretin that wasn't even voted for.
Fuck sybil in general.
Fuck juice.
Long live terry and dynamic.
Add dog girls (codebounty is headpats and huggies)

No

I Agree with putting dynamic on all the servers but lemme just clarify this since ive seen ALOT of people *including myself* say this at one point. What dynamic does is get a set number of threat and buy antags with that threat. Admins are the ONLY way to get more threat. If dynamic buys a wizard and he dies it will NOT give that threat back and buy another antagonist.

From adminning and playing on terry the only problem I can think of is when the rare time say, A wizard and cult roll around, the wizard runs and gets himself culted for the extra power. While stuff like this can make for fun moments I believe that antags like crew shouldnt be allowed to willing join a conversion antag. Still allow it via force but not willingly. This could easily be fixed by just adding a part of the rules to fix it.

The entire point of dynamic is to replace secret. Imagine your waiting for the *HIGH CHAOS DYNAMIC* you've been waiting for since thats all people say about it, and it rolls extended. Dynamic removes alot of the shitty metagaming people do without even thinking about it. Why have this gamemode that is clearly made to replace secret be apart of secret???? Thats entirely missing the point of the mode.

terry players have no rights

Naloac wrote:I Agree with putting dynamic on all the servers but lemme just clarify this since ive seen ALOT of people *including myself* say this at one point. What dynamic does is get a set number of threat and buy antags with that threat. Admins are the ONLY way to get more threat. If dynamic buys a wizard and he dies it will NOT give that threat back and buy another antagonist.

From adminning and playing on terry the only problem I can think of is when the rare time say, A wizard and cult roll around, the wizard runs and gets himself culted for the extra power. While stuff like this can make for fun moments I believe that antags like crew shouldnt be allowed to willing join a conversion antag. Still allow it via force but not willingly. This could easily be fixed by just adding a part of the rules to fix it.

The entire point of dynamic is to replace secret. Imagine your waiting for the *HIGH CHAOS DYNAMIC* you've been waiting for since thats all people say about it, and it rolls extended. Dynamic removes alot of the shitty metagaming people do without even thinking about it. Why have this gamemode that is clearly made to replace secret be apart of secret???? Thats entirely missing the point of the mode.

Mostly agree with what you are saying, although, I would rather see a simple code change, which prevents antags from being converted rather than introducing more rules. Similar to having a mindshield implant without the option to remove it.

Get your personal revhead antag tester pet today! Only a limited time offer!

Istoprocent1 wrote: Mostly agree with what you are saying, although, I would rather see a simple code change, which prevents antags from being converted rather than introducing more rules. Similar to having a mindshield implant without the option to remove it.

I think a rule would be better since the code would simply stop say a changling being a cultist but id prefer if they could be. Since imho it seems fun when it happens

oranges wrote:dynamic is not blessed by coders

Why.

I have not heard a single argument why dynamic is bad now the threat levels have been tweaked.

Dynamic is a good mode, and i think all servers should run it for like a week so everybody experiences it.
After that we can have a vote or something, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE at least allow admins to set dynamic for a round if its voted for by the players.

Dynamic is good but Terry has devolved into back to back 35 min rounds, at least when i play. I think we need to lower the average threat level.

Maybe it is just a player issue though and Terry will improve when all the servers run dynamic and the undesirables move back to their server.

I approve. Dynamic really helps with the above, and I like how since Dynamic was rolled out the amount of people suicide bombing wizards has dropped significantly, but like with what Kryson said and some concerns other people have it should just have a larger weight with a variable threat level.

There should still be the occasional secret greenshift in there as well just to slow the game down from time to time.

imsxz's hypothetical was a very real thing I pulled as a traitor to get sec gear and kill my targets until they realized it wasn't cult. I used the rune metal from the curator's office and used my soulstone to have some poor sap I killed pretend it was cult for me.

Worked real well till traitors got called. Then I had to go loud with my stando. Very sad.

CPTANT wrote:

oranges wrote:dynamic is not blessed by coders

Why.

I have not heard a single argument why dynamic is bad now the threat levels have been tweaked.

Because I actually like to have a good period of testing before I decide to change out the main game mode in the game

Naloac wrote:From adminning and playing on terry the only problem I can think of is when the rare time say, A wizard and cult roll around, the wizard runs and gets himself culted for the extra power. While stuff like this can make for fun moments I believe that antags like crew shouldnt be allowed to willing join a conversion antag. Still allow it via force but not willingly. This could easily be fixed by just adding a part of the rules to fix it.

I think a code solution is better than administrative solution. Wizards can be immune to cult conversion and I think nothing of value will be lost. Same can be applied to lings and maybe traitors too, although I think its okay for traitors.

oranges wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

oranges wrote:dynamic is not blessed by coders

Why.

I have not heard a single argument why dynamic is bad now the threat levels have been tweaked.

Because I actually like to have a good period of testing before I decide to change out the main game mode in the game

Which we have had now. It's been played by Terry for months, regularly with 40+ players in a round.

SkeletalElite wrote:

Naloac wrote:From adminning and playing on terry the only problem I can think of is when the rare time say, A wizard and cult roll around, the wizard runs and gets himself culted for the extra power. While stuff like this can make for fun moments I believe that antags like crew shouldnt be allowed to willing join a conversion antag. Still allow it via force but not willingly. This could easily be fixed by just adding a part of the rules to fix it.

I think a code solution is better than administrative solution. Wizards can be immune to cult conversion and I think nothing of value will be lost. Same can be applied to lings and maybe traitors too, although I think its okay for traitors.

The reason I want it to be an admin issue and not a code one is because some of the coolest moments ive had are from those rounds, like having a changling fight violently to not be culted. Or that one time an admin spawned 2 wizards ontop of a cult. one ended up being crew aligned and the other *me* cult aligned. Id like for that sorta stuff to still be possible for others because its really cool when it happens.

CPTANT wrote:

oranges wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

oranges wrote:dynamic is not blessed by coders

Why.

I have not heard a single argument why dynamic is bad now the threat levels have been tweaked.

Because I actually like to have a good period of testing before I decide to change out the main game mode in the game

Which we have had now. It's been played by Terry for months, regularly with 40+ players in a round.

It's only been in the game for 3 months mate

carshalash wrote:No

But honestly. In the same way its good to have green shift rounds (which used to be secret extended), or simple traitor rounds (still the base game imho). Dynamic allows for neither of those. Sure threat levels have been tweaked but I have never seen a dynamic round with less than two antag types. And mix/matching "team" game modes regularly is just horrible.

Honestly it breeds an acceptance that this game is CONSTANT action, which honestly I don't think the original brief is at all. "Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden round-based roleplaying game". To enable paranoia you need moments of quiet. Its why most new horror flicks suck, jump scare after jump scare with constant action just ISNT horrifying.

If the round type is a "director" of the round, then dynamic is Micheal Bay. Sure its funny and fun every once in awhile but you can't only watch Micheal Bay films 24/7

sibyl-2 should be permanently on dynamic that way there might actually be some players there and sibyl-2 would stop being a total waste of server space

Man_Shroom wrote:sibyl-2 should be permanently on dynamic that way there might actually be some players there and sibyl-2 would stop being a total waste of server space

that implies there's a useful use of the space sybil-2 is taking up

there is not, it's there because we have free space, it affects nothing, it wastes nothing, it costs nothing

peoplearestrange wrote:

carshalash wrote:No

But honestly. In the same way its good to have green shift rounds (which used to be secret extended), or simple traitor rounds (still the base game imho). Dynamic allows for neither of those. Sure threat levels have been tweaked but I have never seen a dynamic round with less than two antag types. And mix/matching "team" game modes regularly is just horrible.

Honestly it breeds an acceptance that this game is CONSTANT action, which honestly I don't think the original brief is at all. "Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden round-based roleplaying game". To enable paranoia you need moments of quiet. Its why most new horror flicks suck, jump scare after jump scare with constant action just ISNT horrifying.

If the round type is a "director" of the round, then dynamic is Micheal Bay. Sure its funny and fun every once in awhile but you can't only watch Micheal Bay films 24/7

dynamic does have rounds with only traitors, and does certainly have rounds with no antags at all. Statistically speaking, you're nearly as likely to roll rounds without antags in dynamic as you are in secret. Under 5 threat, dynamic can't spawn any antags at all. Under 10, it will only do 1 or 2 latejoin/midround traitors if you're lucky. 5% of rounds in dynamic will have under 5 threat, 10% will have under 10. In secret, extended currently has 2% chance and secret extended at 4%, with all the other modes being not extended.

i'm pretty bad at math, so feel free to correct me if my assumptions about probability are incorrect.

Threat isnt linearly calculated so the chances of <10 are lower than that. TCEO might be able to answer this more from the math side, as I frankly value my sanity too much to try. Doesnt change the fact that a <10 threat round is basically secret extended with some ghost antags, and happen often enough if you actually hang around for a while. This is regardless again a config setting, and not something hardcoded into dynamic.
Admins can force extended for their events as usual.

As for stacking team antags, with the exception of blood bros the rest require threat > 90 to be able to be mixed naturally. This is rare, and even then requires more than one to roll which it just might not. You might see three solo antag rulesets instead.

At lower pop and threat, you are also more likely to see fewer rulesets rolled. This again, is something youll notice if you hang around and watch what dynamic does.
This is the threat required to be allowed a second and third ruleset based on population: So for example below 50 threat on a 30 man server, you'll always only have a single ruleset.
Above 60 threat on a 40 man server you can have three rulesets attempt to roll.

Cue ruleset probability. Numbers are % chance of rolling the second or third ruleset if we have enough pop and threat from the above step. Mind you both of these lists are also configurable. Currently the rule prob lists are numbers I pulled out of the air becasue "that seems reasonable to me". They could use some tweaking for sanity, but overall seemed like they were doing a great job of limiting the rulesets in play every given round.

my main issue with dynamic other than the fact that it essentially is "more antags than there would be: the game mode" is that there is currently nothing dissuading every single antagonist type in the game from teaming up and becoming an utter clusterfuck. the only inter-antagonist conflict that has any chance to exist is if a independent antag needs to kill a revolutionary. cultists kill themselves for the objective, and even if not, you can probably just kindly ask them to eat your sleeping carp punches and be brought back as a construct.
nothing bounces off each other in any interesting way or with any depth. why would i, a changeling, use the cult as a distraction to further my objectives, when i could just join the cult willingly, get superpowers, and then do my objective as a practically unstoppable juggernaut? the only thing i have to avoid is dying with the cult if they happen to lose or being next to the narsie summon.
it makes conversion antagonists a complete and utter fucking joke when the revs and cultists likely have a pool of a few Super Converts that have full sets of murderbone gear on top of having 80% of the station to back them up/the full force of the fucking cult.
oh and wizard rounds not ending when they die will always be eternally lame due to their (generally) extreme round impact.

beyond meshing with conversion modes dynamic has practically no visible impact to rounds (except wizard, but half the time wizard makes a handful of crew antags anyway), because we already had dedicated gamemodes based around meshing the independent antagonists that were actually designed to co-exist with each other.

Kel wrote: beyond meshing with conversion modes dynamic has practically no visible impact to rounds (except wizard, but half the time wizard makes a handful of crew antags anyway), because we already had dedicated gamemodes based around meshing the independent antagonists that were actually designed to co-exist with each other.

Further reason to remove conversion modes.

skoglol wrote:snip

i see, thank you for correcting me.

Dynamic already is on all servers.

As part of the mode rotation, where it belongs.

deedubya wrote:Dynamic already is on all servers.

As part of the mode rotation, where it belongs.

This is literally missing the point by two miles. Why should the mode which is 100% trying to replace secret. That normally preforms much better than secret allowing autism projects to happen even if its something like revs be apart of secret? It sucks to see something should replace secret be stuck as apart of secret. If secret rolls dynamic its basically just rolling the same dice as last time only this time its going to be more fun overall? Why not just cut out secret and be done with it.

Dr_bee wrote:

Kel wrote: beyond meshing with conversion modes dynamic has practically no visible impact to rounds (except wizard, but half the time wizard makes a handful of crew antags anyway), because we already had dedicated gamemodes based around meshing the independent antagonists that were actually designed to co-exist with each other.

Further reason to remove conversion modes.

Conversion works fine as an optional mechanic in traitor. IE people conversion with the hypno flash/brainwashing surgery disk.

Emags and Ai law changes for the sillicons.

oranges wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

Which we have had now. It's been played by Terry for months, regularly with 40+ players in a round.

It's only been in the game for 3 months mate

So months? Terry has played at least 1518 rounds of dynamic since introduction, how many months of full population testing do you want?

I really don't know CPTANT.

When I get enough feedback that it's in a good spot, then I'll be happy for the headadmins to configure it however the fuck they please, so if they want to replace secret, they can.

I greatly prefer dynamic over secret, so I fully and utterly agree with this.

Since terry "shouldn't" have dynamic as its' main game mode if the other servers don't, i want the rest of the servers to have dynamic for every round.

We want dynamic back as the only gamemode in rotation.

tgmc doesn't have dynamic though

+1 for dynamic only

The fact that dynamic *can* happen means the call “there’s a ling so no cult” is never correct.

confused rock wrote:The fact that dynamic *can* happen means the call “there’s a ling so no cult” is never correct.

It's a 13% chance of being wrong with a 0% chance if centcom report is checked the two shift types reports are different (dynamic's one is actually good)

confused rock wrote:The fact that dynamic *can* happen means the call “there’s a ling so no cult” is never correct.

I'll take that call since the chance of me being wrong is so small which is made allot smaller by checking the status report.

remember, there is a roundstart device that lets you deduct the mode to select gamemodes without you, the antagonist, ever raising a finger.

i don't like dynamic because when the roundending antags (nukies wiz etc) die the round doesn't end so the station stands around (either with holes blown into it in the case of nukies or a majority of people dead / armed with magic / demoralized because l o l w i z") waiting for someone to call it because at that point everyone's so focused on valid hunting that going back to doing your job if you've already stopped doing it becomes taboo

dynamic is fun and all and it embraces the chaos that the game implies but it's sort of too chaotic to play on repeatedly (unless you're a jerry player then idk how you manage it)
give dynamic a high weight (no dynamic revs though please) and keep sextended extended tators and normal revs and i think that would embrace a majority of the time being dynamic chaos but allow for the occasional "breather round" where nothing particularly extraordinary happens and you just get to vibe

i say these things whilest also assuming dynamic rolls a high threat a majority of the time since the chances of it rolling more than ten outweight it rolling less than ten (also assuming that it rolls 1d100 to determine the threat and isn't changed by other factors other than population) so there would be a higher amount of rounds with more antagonists than ones without

so bruh

zero the big boy wrote:i don't like dynamic because when the roundending antags (nukies wiz etc) die the round doesn't end so the station stands around (either with holes blown into it in the case of nukies or a majority of people dead / armed with magic / demoralized because l o l w i z") waiting for someone to call it because at that point everyone's so focused on valid hunting that going back to doing your job if you've already stopped doing it becomes taboo

shuttle gets called as soon as someone says nuke ops, the only difference is if the ops gets blasted in 5 min because they were mentally challeged the crew can enjoy doing what they were doing instead of random round end, same with wiz, its super common that wiz dies in 3 min to random self fireball which makes ppl just grab a suicide bomb or whatever and try to validhunt the wiz so they can reroll into a 10min+ gamemode


i think single antags having anti conversion prot would be interesting

Why is Terry on secret anyway? Terry had a vote and (I believe) voted overwhelmingly in favour of keeping dynamic.

If dynamic "needs more testing" maybe we should do that fucking testing on at least 1 server?

Arathian wrote:Why is Terry on secret anyway? Terry had a vote and (I believe) voted overwhelmingly in favour of keeping dynamic.

If dynamic "needs more testing" maybe we should do that fucking testing on at least 1 server?

Terry did vote overwhelmingly in favor of dynamic. But to answer your question as to why there is a "trial period" of secret, it is because we voted for a sybil headmin.