/tg/Station 13

Headmins voted between them to remove dynamic from Terry for (apparently) consistency.

First of all, events hall is also EU and it is on secret, so EU players who really prefer secret have a low latency option already.

Yes, events hall is dead. It's because people prefer dynamic on Terry. We had a player vote a few months ago (a bit before I left, so around September if I recall) and it was overwhelmingly in favour of keeping dynamic. The move directly contradicts the playerbase's will.

As a result of removing dynamic, Terry's population has dramatically declined and now, on peak hours on weekend's, Terry doesn't break 30 people. That's down from 70-80 people only a couple months ago.

I have no idea why the admins decided to kill Terry, but please stop that. If you don't like dynamic, your opinion is absolutely respected and there are plenty of secret servers to go around. Keep terry on dynamic. And please do that before Terry dies for good.

as a highpop shitter having never played dynamic i feel like i missed out on a fun bug like the weapon customisation one in the phantom pain so yeah put it back

In your view, should the game be balanced around dynamic, or should it be balanced around secret?

Farquaar wrote:In your view, should the game be balanced around dynamic, or should it be balanced around secret?

The game is an RPG and "balancing" stuff is against the spirit.

Oooor just put all the servers on dynamic, since it is overall a better gamemode with less opportunities to metagame, and the early problems it had have been addressed? It is no longer an antag-fest, luckily. But yeah, it still doesn't have that many rounds that are longer than about an hour, and this still leaves some mixed feelings towards it
Dunno, maybe remove the dynamic comm console report and increase the chance of it in secret

Tarchonvaagh wrote:Oooor just put all the servers on dynamic, since it is overall a better gamemode with less opportunities to metagame, and the early problems it had have been addressed? It is no longer an antag-fest, luckily. But yeah, it still doesn't have that many rounds that are longer than about an hour, and this still leaves some mixed feelings towards it
Dunno, maybe remove the dynamic comm console report and increase the chance of it in secret

I don't care about the other servers. They can do what they want. Dynamic on terry had been a staple for months.

They removed dynamic from terry because it meant that Terry is some special server, dividing the playerbase
So it's either all the servers or none of em

That's a false dilemma though.

Tarchonvaagh wrote: So it's either all the servers or none of em

This is what headmins say and probably think

But why we cant have only on terry is there any technical issue? There is special server already sybil1-2, event hall

I am 100% on board with dynamic being the 24/7 mode on Terry, and i think the other servers should also be dynamic for a month so they know how dynamic "feels" as a gamemode.

Arathian wrote: The game is an RPG and "balancing" stuff is against the spirit.

Arathian wrote:That's a false dilemma though.

You say shit like this which shows that you don’t understand anything about why it was removed - or seemingly much about the game, which makes sense since you weren’t even here when it was removed.

If you want dynamic back, https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=24680 is the way to go about it. If you want terry back, that’s probably your only bet as well.

Farquaar wrote:In your view, should the game be balanced around dynamic, or should it be balanced around secret?

the game should be balanced around whatever it is we have right now.

the best solution imo is forcing dynamic for two weeks on ALL servers(should give you the testing period you people apparently need so much + give the other servers a taste of 24/7 dynamic so they can give actual fucking feedback and come to their own decision on the matter) then having a community-wide dynamic vs secret vote. you could even make a pinned thread with debates on this and shit, like we did with the headmin election

Dynamic is literally the best gamemode. Any potential problems can always be patched out in time.

Farquaar wrote:In your view, should the game be balanced around dynamic, or should it be balanced around secret?

dynamic should be balanced around the game, as it has been already. custom solutions for revs and wizard explicitly for dynamic and not impacting normal secret are already in place.

That said, if dynamic were the normal on all servers, people would obviously design stuff with it in mind or perhaps assuming it as the default.

wesoda25 wrote:

Arathian wrote: The game is an RPG and "balancing" stuff is against the spirit.

Arathian wrote:That's a false dilemma though.

You say shit like this which shows that you don’t understand anything about why it was removed - or seemingly much about the game, which makes sense since you weren’t even here when it was removed.

If you want dynamic back, https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=24680 is the way to go about it. If you want terry back, that’s probably your only bet as well.

What if you actually say why this is a problem instead of just saying people don't understand.

I don't see a problem with dynamics balance, more antags meaning more destruction/death/chaos is a logical consequence, that's what people like about it in the first place.

They removed dynamic from terry because it meant that Terry is some special server, dividing the playerbase

It's the same server with a couple more antags, people switch around all the time based on what they feel like playing at the moment.

The best solution is an All or Nothing scenario.

We don't need a Dynamic only server because that divides the playstyles between the servers.

Unless you want specific nerf PRs to balance antags more in tune for dynamic, while all the other servers on secret see that antag being reduced to side-antag status when it should be the main villain. This would be the way to go.

All Or Nothing. Currently, it's nothing. But the main consensus is that the playerbase isn't opposed to all either.

Arathian wrote:Headmins voted between them to remove dynamic from Terry for (apparently) consistency.
As a result of removing dynamic, Terry's population has dramatically declined and now, on peak hours on weekend's, Terry doesn't break 30 people. That's down from 70-80 people only a couple months ago.

Yeah, since this change it's really become a bit of a wasteland on the server...

That's because that was its pop before it became the snowflake server.

Terry has been rightfully restored to its design.

This is obvious to anyone who was here before 2019!

The idea that terry creates a rift between players is quite silly honestly. Dynamic is at the very least in secrets rotation on all servers, so coders are going to respect dynamic when adding new stuff regardless of whether or not a server has it 24/7. As for a rift in how servers are administrated, I have no fucking clue how this conclusion was jumped to, seems like a point that was pulled out of someones ass to compound their scary terry slippery slope idea. The only "rule" differences for dynamic are rulings regarding how to solve conflicting objectives, which ALL THE OTHER SERVERS will be following anyways, as dynamic is run sometimes on ALL servers.

The only rift I see coming out of it is in playerbase. I don't see the issue of people preferring to stick to a specific server. People already do that with every server, regardless of whether or not the servers are entirely identical in code and rules.

Arathian wrote:

Farquaar wrote:In your view, should the game be balanced around dynamic, or should it be balanced around secret?

The game is an RPG and "balancing" stuff is against the spirit.

This is coming from the guy I had to ban from our coding channel for complaining about game changes.

get the fuck off

CPTANT wrote:-snip-

lemme rephrase that, arathian is just being disingenuous with his points.

Still I don’t think is the thread to post in if you want dynamic back - unless you specifically want terry to be the sole dynamic server.

i didn't mind terry being 24/7 dynamic, why do all of our servers need to be exactly the same

i love the republic

bobbahbrown wrote:i didn't mind terry being 24/7 dynamic, why do all of our servers need to be exactly the same

i love the republic

This sums up my viewpoint nicely.

Why, exactly, was it such a bad thing for Terry to be 24/7 dynamic and our other servers to be secret 24/7? Why "must" ALL of our servers be 24/7 dynamic or ALL be secret 24/7? I don't understand why you'd take away a pretty big part of why people liked Terry (as evidenced by the population drop seen in Terry after the change)/what made Terry unique without giving us some good reasons why you would want to do that.

bobbahbrown wrote:i didn't mind terry being 24/7 dynamic, why do all of our servers need to be exactly the same

i love the republic

There are three reasons Bobbahbrown.

1. Changing Terry from the European /tg/ server into the Dynamic /tg/ server has kicked euro's out of their server, as it gets flooded with Americans. Thus, the only way for them to play would be either to wait out long lengths of time until they can get in. Or, they must go onto another server like sybil and bagil, enduring the higher ping.

2. It adds confusion to the Codebase we don't need right now. Let's say a coder likes dynamic and only plays on terry. They see some iffy issues with, I dunno. A traitor having access to both Cult powers and its own toolset. They go. "Hey, that's pretty OP. Let me tone this down by liming the amount of TC they get." Or, "Romerol is pretty busted when you add it into this madness. Let me remove it."

This takes away from said individual modes as if you would go onto Sybil or bagil. Said features have suddenly been thrown out of whack, and it messes up the Secret mode.

Now some people have said "Just make a dynamic only traitor/insert antag here Shadow!!" But that is not enticing either. It adds more bloat to the code to make specific individual versions of each antags even though they only have slight changes from each other, IE: Imagine seeing the traitor panel double in size as admins now scroll through which version they need to give a player to fix an issue.

3. Lastly, It corrupts the goals of the game. Do we now Deny any opinion from anyone who mainly plays terry? On Dynamic, Wizard doesn't get all the spells, and it's not the only antagonist. While its a very different gameplay style on Secret. If we were to make a policy discussion about Wizard. You'd get disagreements simply because of the fact that two different versions of the antagonist now exist and are played in different settings.

This is not good. None of this is good.

All the same or the differences are going to tear this community apart.

Edit: To be clear, 24/7 terry only Dynamicers. You may not see any of these as an issue. But with this, you've been given a further basis and understanding of why simply people don't want a server they don't even play on to be different. Because it causes chain reactions that affect the servers they do play on. Policy-wise and Code-Wise.

Shadowflame909 wrote: There are three reasons Bobbahbrown.

1. Changing Terry from the European /tg/ server into the Dynamic /tg/ server has kicked euro's out of their server, as it gets flooded with Americans. Thus, the only way for them to play would be either to wait out long lengths of time until they can get in. Or, they must go onto another server like sybil and bagil, enduring the higher ping.

2. It adds confusion to the Codebase we don't need right now. Let's say a coder likes dynamic and only plays on terry. They see some iffy issues with, I dunno. A traitor having access to both Cult powers and its own toolset. They go. "Hey, that's pretty OP. Let me tone this down by liming the amount of TC they get." Or, "Romerol is pretty busted when you add it into this madness. Let me remove it."

This takes away from said individual modes as if you would go onto Sybil or bagil. Said features have suddenly been thrown out of whack, and it messes up the Secret mode.

Now some people have said "Just make a dynamic only traitor/insert antag here Shadow!!" But that is not enticing either. It adds more bloat to the code to make specific individual versions of each antags even though they only have slight changes from each other, IE: Imagine seeing the traitor panel double in size as admins now scroll through which version they need to give a player to fix an issue.

3. Lastly, It corrupts the goals of the game. Do we now Deny any opinion from anyone who mainly plays terry? On Dynamic, Wizard doesn't get all the spells, and it's not the only antagonist. While its a very different gameplay style on Secret. If we were to make a policy discussion about Wizard. You'd get disagreements simply because of the fact that two different versions of the antagonist now exist and are played in different settings.

This is not good. None of this is good.

All the same or the differences are going to tear this community apart.

Edit: To be clear, 24/7 terry only Dynamicers. You may not see any of these as an issue. But with this, you've been given a further basis and understanding of why simply people don't want a server they don't even play on to be different. Because it causes chain reactions that affect the servers they do play on. Policy-wise and Code-Wise.

Am I missing something here or who is this guy? Never seen him playing the game. Yet being most vocal about the situation that will affect the whole community.

Antags don't need to be changed just for Dynamic's sake. Dynamic can be adjusted to fit the changes and be in rotation for other servers, if majority there prefers Secret.

he's a mouth-breathing retard that is friends with the admins so they listen to him for some reason
I liked terry on dynamic, gave me a place to play when bagil people were asleep

1. Changing Terry from the European /tg/ server into the Dynamic /tg/ server has kicked euro's out of their server, as it gets flooded with Americans. Thus, the only way for them to play would be either to wait out long lengths of time until they can get in. Or, they must go onto another server like sybil and bagil, enduring the higher ping.

fake, even if issue reassign one of our currently unused servers for this purpose

2. It adds confusion to the Codebase we don't need right now. Let's say a coder likes dynamic and only plays on terry. They see some iffy issues with, I dunno. A traitor having access to both Cult powers and its own toolset. They go. "Hey, that's pretty OP. Let me tone this down by liming the amount of TC they get." Or, "Romerol is pretty busted when you add it into this madness. Let me remove it."

wont happen

Now some people have said "Just make a dynamic only traitor/insert antag here Shadow!!" But that is not enticing either. It adds more bloat to the code to make specific individual versions of each antags even though they only have slight changes from each other, IE: Imagine seeing the traitor panel double in size as admins now scroll through which version they need to give a player to fix an issue.

codebase wont allow it if its stupid and bloat, empty argument, we have maintainers for a reason -- moreso did people even have an issue with this in the first place? id prefer you have actual statistics to talk to of people wanting one thing or another rather than 'people have said...', people who are content are unlikely to be vocal

3. Lastly, It corrupts the goals of the game. Do we now Deny any opinion from anyone who mainly plays terry? On Dynamic, Wizard doesn't get all the spells, and it's not the only antagonist. While its a very different gameplay style on Secret. If we were to make a policy discussion about Wizard. You'd get disagreements simply because of the fact that two different versions of the antagonist now exist and are played in different settings.

im not even confident this is an issue


overall rating of this post:

This is not good. None of this is good.

"not true" "wont happen" "codebase wont allow this"

It can happen, It will happen. It has happened.

Why? It's the simple fact that ALL of /tg/ is connected. On this very forum and on the Discord.

All of /TG/ votes for a headmin, and all of /tg/ gives feedback on issues.

Now, American Terry-mins. Tell me what happens when two different Cultures are governed by the same set of rules?

You get a melting pot, or you get a fracture.

So no, I don't want the insanity of Dynamic-Coders changing antagonists after this antag freeze is over.

I also don't want the Dynamic playstyle leading to a separate branch of /tg/.

I'm gonna keep this Union together and United.

Because face it. Just like Cat-Girls. Dynamic is already starting to become a controversial issue that will and can cause conflict in the state of the game as we know it.

Edit: Frankly. I'm digging so deep in my arguments about an atmos simulators Game-Design. That it's starting to get silly. There's a reason people don't want Terry as the 24/7 dynamic server. You just don't like it Terry-Dynamicers.

dynamic is only an issue as much as you're making it to be i really doubt 99% of the people who actually play care

please hold some level of polling because standing on ceremony is foolish when making design decisions this important

Shadowflame909 wrote:"not true" "wont happen" "codebase wont allow this"

It can happen, It will happen. It has happened.

Why? It's the simple fact that ALL of /tg/ is connected. On this very forum and on the Discord.

Isnt it ironic how you don't mention the game itself at all

Shadowflame909 wrote:There's a reason people don't want Terry as the 24/7 dynamic server. You just don't like it Terry-Dynamicers.

Then do a server-wide vote already, holy shit

I don't argue against a server-wide vote for "ALL dynamic" or "All Secret."

But a server-wide vote for "Which server should be the black sheep of /tg/" is something that I will adamantly argue against.

Shadowflame909 wrote:I don't argue against a server-wide vote for "ALL dynamic" or "All Secret."

But a server-wide vote for "Which server should be the black sheep of /tg/" is something that I will adamantly argue against.

only a sith deals in absolutes

Imma just fire out that, even though people say *all our servers are the same!!* This isnt true. Event hall has a higher rate of secret extended/extended than the other servers for some reason. I have never seen this brought up to make it *more in line with TG* Yet Terry being dynamic is such a problem. Really makes you think.

I don't even consider event hall to be a tg server, it's just a whirlpool of hubbies that occasionally washes a player smart enough to check out our website up onto the shores of the real servers

Time for a hot deedubya take, consisting of common sense and 100% correct opinions.

I was the one that initially called for Terry to be returned to secret, quite some time ago. I did this due to my experiences playing in Sybil being twofold: One was that EU players that had quit Terry because of 24/7 dynamic were expressing displeasure with it, but saying that "taking the high ping is better than having to deal with dynamic". Two was my own experiences with dynamic whenever it rolled on the secret rotation; that being that it was always an absolute clusterfuck of 3-5 sets of antags. Certainly enjoyable on the rare occasions that it occurred, but I couldn't imagine being forced to deal with that 24/7 on your only option for a native ping server. No, eventhall isn't a viable alternative. It's pretty common knowledge that the quality of play differs between eventhall and all of the "main" servers.

That being said, when the Terry players were polled about it, it became abundantly clear that they enjoyed the mode. Like, it wasn't even fucking close: https://sb.atlantaned.space/polls/216 After I became aware of that poll, I changed my tune pretty quick. They obviously enjoy the mode, so why was it changed back after the poll had concluded and the people had spoken?

For the record, I still think that it's rough that EU doesn't get a Bagil/Sybil equivalent for a case like this. If they did, they could have a dynamic server and a secret server. For the record, that's why in my initial proposal to return Terry to secret, I suggested turning Bagil into the 24/7 dynamic server. Since NA players at least have a choice between two servers, and Bagil already has a dominant culture of antagrolling/validhunting/tiding/selfantagging so it would've been a perfect fit for early dynamic. But it's pretty obvious that Terry enjoyed it, so just let them have it. When in Rome.




That being said, if the headmins are super dead fucking set against giving the players what they want, here's a thought: Adjust the rate of secret on Terry so that Dynamic occurs 50% of the time. Turn Bagil(or Sybil-2) into 24/7 dynamic. Keep Sybil on secret. That way the EU players aren't forced into 24/7 dynamic, and the 24/7 dynamic players get to have a choice on NA servers, where more options are available to them.

Shadowflame909 wrote:There's a reason people don't want Terry as the 24/7 dynamic server. You just don't like it Terry-Dynamicers.

"people" being the super vast minority of players that actually play on the server. Is it so hard to admit you were wrong when proven as such? Even I'm capable of that.

Your hot take only fixes the issue of Europeans being booted out of their own server. But it doesnt solve "Antag-Design" Fracture

oranges wrote:This is coming from the guy I had to ban from our coding channel for complaining about game changes.

get the fuck off

I was complaining about you trying to gut a thing I enjoy for """balance""" yes.

Almost like I consistently don't like that shit you keep trying to pull.

Now stop being a faggot in this thread.

deedubya wrote:<SNIP>

Good take.

Honestly, there is one single piece of evidence that's needed. Terry died since the change. If people "wanted their server back" or "didn't mind" then the server would have either increased in pop or would be relatively unaffected. The server dropped 80% in population in a couple months I was missing. Even beyond polls or theories, the very practical effects of the change show the reality.

Now europeans have a dead server instead of a dynamic server.

oranges wrote:I don't even consider event hall to be a tg server, it's just a whirlpool of hubbies that occasionally washes a player smart enough to check out our website up onto the shores of the real servers

there is literally a serverhop button on event hall you dont even need to check the website

Two things.

One. I'm unsure if this feature is still enabled, but Event Hall is the status quo Noob training grounds for the real server. The last term, Headmins had it set to where if you tried to join Bagil or Sybil, Or Terry with zero connections. You'd be sent to Event Hall instead until you had more connections.

Two. Being mad that since Terry lost dynamic all the Americans have left since it's not interesting to them anymore, doesn't sound like an issue to me.

Terry was at this exact POP pre-dynamic. It's the European server. Not the snowflake different server.

Thus, this thread complaining about not having their one different server is quite possibly the most malicious intended move /TG/ could revert. It's clearly coming from a place of Virtual-Elitism and Fragility.

Terry would stay at this same pop if Dynamic suddenly became on all servers.

Because that's simply not what this is about.

Black Sheep servers are a mistake and as long as they don't exist. /TG/ doesn't fracture into two different servers with two different sets of rules and admins.

TLDR; Dynamic was the catgirl of servers. You don't want everyone to be forced to play Dynamic, thus you made a separate thread. You just want your special special race back!

Well, that's taxing and sprouts more issues and division between policy, and code so don't do that.

Shadowflame909 wrote:TLDR; Dynamic was the catgirl of servers. You don't want everyone to be forced to play Dynamic, thus you made a separate thread. You just want your special special race back!

we literally have a thread that offers forcing dynamic on all servers

restoring dynamic on terry =/= dynamic on terry only, we really really really need to put an end to this 'trial' period or/and make a vote on the matter. so far headmins(namely hulk) have been completely silent concerning this

I don't care about dynamic as long as euros have a place to play

Not that I play anymore

There has been a lot of spill off of former terry players coming to sybil, give terry dynamic back so we can have comfypop again.

If they weren't there before Dynamic. Then they were never truly on Terry for its intended purpose.

Terrys back on dynamic

This sucks not because Headmins disagreed with me ultimately

But because they temporarily did agree with me, and haven't commented at all like silent boomer ninjas.

i am going to play dynamic
it better be good like you people suggest

Thanks headmins!

Arathian wrote:

oranges wrote:This is coming from the guy I had to ban from our coding channel for complaining about game changes.

get the fuck off

I was complaining about you trying to gut a thing I enjoy for """balance""" yes.

mate if I wanted to I wouldn't have to try

Dynamic has indeed been restored on Terry for the time being, and I'll be locking this thread as a result.