/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

So, having undergone review by admins, I am now releasing this for public review:

Read this before posting. http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf Read this before posting.

This is intended as a thread for discussion of the ongoing hell that is making silicon policy for /tg/station13.

The goal is to create a concise listing of things that are policy, things that should be policy, and necessary information to follow that policy, with an understanding that this is primarily a precedent reference guide for people lacking experience with /tg/station13 and/or with our silicons.

This will be our /Silicon Policy General/ and the administrative team will (one hopes) take playerbase feedback about what should or should not be the case into account, but it is not obligated or guaranteed to make your opinion law.

You can use this as a place for general discussion, ask-an-admin hypotheticals, and so on. Also, if Callan speaks here, I'm just going to go ahead and say he speaks with my full support of just about anything he says as official until stated otherwise.

I'm going to moderate this topic aggressively. ANY shitposting, shitflinging, aggressive attitude towards each other or admins, and so on will be warned and deleted. No exceptions. You will discuss this matter civilly or not at all.

You could always just check a crew manifest that gets printed, can't tamper with a hard copy, even get a professional manifest holder and everything.

Have a backup listing in the AI upload, give an alert when the records get deleted.
Besides, its an AI, a computer that dosent fully understand humans and takes everything literly.
As for non-crew, Well, look at what we have for non-human crew right now. Dont fuck up and get tolerated.

Or add a law somewhere saying that aslong as they follow spacelaw they are fine?

Hell, just have the cap/head tell the AI not to mess with them.

We don't need even more complications and clauses.

True...

Aah, how can we get that to work then? Make it carbon-based life instead of human or crew?
But that would include lab animals and farm ones...
And xenomorphs/carp might be carbon-based...

Rule for non-humans is very, very simple: don't be a dick.

It's already covered in the proposed policy pandar made.

everything does come down to not being a dick doesn't it

something like silicons don't be dicks to non humans, non humans don't be dicks to silicons

to be honest

if we had just rule one don't be a dick and had stenography for a common consensus of sorts of rulings where admins and players could both reach something they could be happy about when rule one wasn't too clear, things would be fine. A case by case basis kind of deal, seeing as we will never get anywhere if we try making policies for everything.

but

>lel tldr
>lel no steno

imblyings wrote:everything does come down to not being a dick doesn't it

something like silicons don't be dicks to non humans, non humans don't be dicks to silicons

to be honest

if we had just rule one don't be a dick and had stenography for a common consensus of sorts of rulings where admins and players could both reach something they could be happy about when rule one wasn't too clear, things would be fine. A case by case basis kind of deal, seeing as we will never get anywhere if we try making policies for everything.

but

>lel tldr
>lel no steno

That basically sums up the policies the admins have made. "Don't be a dick. Here's what being a dick entails, exactly:"

The biggest issue I have with non-humaning everything is they lose law 2, hulk should lose law 1, but I don't think they should lose law 2.

The reason I see hulks as being something that should be treated special is because there is a job with two slots that has a implicit goal of getting hulk, and commonly does so.

So now genetics did their job, found hulk, isn't abooseing it, and their reward is being told no when they ask the ai to let them out of x y z place, or tell the borg to fuck off when it decides to bug them. So now they have to smash their way out of what ever office they got bluespaced into or what ever, and now they are seen as a rampaging hulk, and all of sec is trying to arrest them, but never letting them even come peacefully to explain. No its laser on sight.

And while you can say blah blah rule 1, everybody here knows that if that was ahelped, the response would be either "sounds like an IC issue to me", or if the admin is a dick "why were you in blah?"

And? If the AI denies opening the door or gets its valid on simply because they're not explicitly told not to, in an ironclad banned-if-you-violate fashion?
If the AI is suddenly screwing me over just because I'm no longer technically human, that's a huge dick move right there - That sort of player, exactly this, is why everyone panics when the less-ironclad Corporate/Paladin or Purge is uploaded.

MrStonedOne wrote:The biggest issue I have with non-humaning everything is they lose law 2, hulk should lose law 1, but I don't think they should lose law 2.

The reason I see hulks as being something that should be treated special is because there is a job with two slots that has a implicit goal of getting hulk, and commonly does so.

So now genetics did their job, found hulk, isn't abooseing it, and their reward is being told no when they ask the ai to let them out of x y z place, or tell the borg to fuck off when it decides to bug them. So now they have to smash their way out of what ever office they got bluespaced into or what ever, and now they are seen as a rampaging hulk, and all of sec is trying to arrest them, but never letting them even come peacefully to explain. No its laser on sight.

And while you can say blah blah rule 1, everybody here knows that if that was ahelped, the response would be either "sounds like an IC issue to me", or if the admin is a dick "why were you in blah?"

Skyclad.Observer wrote:And? If the AI denies opening the door or gets its valid on simply because they're not explicitly told not to, in an ironclad banned-if-you-violate fashion?
If the AI is suddenly screwing me over just because I'm no longer technically human, that's a huge dick move right there - That sort of player, exactly this, is why everyone panics when the less-ironclad Corporate/Paladin or Purge is uploaded.

I mentioned this earlier in, or maybe in the admin subforum version of this thread. It's REALLY easy to get somebody else to echo an order for you. Generally you can just put it out on 145.9 and somebody will take ten seconds to say "AI do what John just said". If you have departmental radio, it's even easier because people notice the fancy colored text. If for some reason you've ticked off the station enough that not even a single person will echo something for you, then well sucks to be you maybe you should be friendlier next time.
Also, being hulk is a voluntary choice. They KNOW what they're getting into when they inject that SE, and they're choosing to make that tradeoff.

That doesn't change the fact that cockblocking just because you can is a really dick move.

MrStonedOne wrote:The biggest issue I have with non-humaning everything is they lose law 2, hulk should lose law 1, but I don't think they should lose law 2.

How does that even work

"AI SAVE ME!!"

here's your law 1

The biggest problem would of course be super powers virus, because it's often being spread over whole station. But frankly that virus is overpowered anyway.

Yeah, the superpower virus kind of fucks nonhumaning hulks. What if someone becomes a hulk immediately after giving an order? Does it still count? Will it be abused?

AI's are, of course, free to follow orders of non-humans. Personally I would consider it a good idea to please the guy who can break into your core trivially simply for law 3 reasons.

Okay first-off let's go back to nonhumans in general:

2.6.1 - Nonhuman player-controlled mobs (slimes, monkeys, slimepeople, lizardpeople, hulks, etc.) are subject to server rules but are not considered human
2.6.2 - Setting out to harass or harm a nonhuman player without cause is a Rule 1 violation.

Trapping them places, being obnoxious, doorslamming them, etc., any shit like that unprompted all falls under 'harassing or harming nonhumans without cause.'

Pandarsenic wrote:

Keeping hulks human only protects hulk griefers, hulk antags, hulk validhunters, and hulk idiots, none of whom deserve it.

If nobody can actually refute this statement, then I am going to consider the debate of the hulk status closed. Yes, I have chosen my side here, but the two arguments amount to, in my perception...
Favoring Hulk Humanity:
- "Hulks have always been human"
- You haven't even brought up the other superpowers (or disabilities) yet, therefore I am assuming you don't care about those.
- Therefore, the only argument here is precedent and...
- "I don't want to be dunked if I'm a jerkoff to the rest of the players," because if you're not fucking with people it's covered under 2.6.2 and the silicons can't give you shit Just Because.

Against Hulk Humanity:
- Hulks are visually very distinct, like lizards, flypeople, slimepeople, and monkeys
- They're one SE block away from humanity, like monkeys
- They have special advantages, like monkeys and slimepeople
- They have no meaningful disadvantages but their nonhumanity, like slimepeople and flypeople
- They can be transformed into to give you increased ability to perform a job, like slimepeople
- The transformation is voluntary, like slimepeople and most monkeys and usuaaaally lizards
- The transformation is reversible, like monkeys and flypeople
- The transformation can be reversed by yourself, unlike monkeys and flypeople
- In this ruleset, it's already punishable to fuck with players, hulk or not, for no cause.
- Hulks break shit and it's already annoying - not always hard, but ALWAYS annoying - for sec or silicons to try to stop hulk rampages - and gods help you if the hulk has cold resist too because you're going to end up with holes to space EVERYWHERE.

Anything I'm missing here?

I used to see Hulks as the only sensible counter to cyborgs who are already unstunnable by default, carry a flash and can go secborg to completely fuck you over if you have some antag needs. (Hello, geneticist here.) (Especially as a geneticist). Moreover, wizards hulk themselves every time they use "Mutate".

The entire point of hulk is to be super strong at the cost of having to spend half the round finding the hulk ability and being unable to use guns. (That, however, changed with the addition of the new super-annoying ability virus, which LEL scrambles DNA.)

Any points against that?

The pure fact that you can power through Genetics hard and get Hulk within five to ten minutes is a good counter tip. I've seen this done multiple times by more "experienced" players, though the consequence is you need a lot of anti-rad depending on how the RNG favours you.

Also I recently discovered that Hulks can smash down Rwalls!?!?! I witnessed a Hulk smash into the AI Core in under 15 seconds. We don't even let Aliens break down Rwalls yet Hulks can? Losing the ability to use Guns is trivial when you have Stun immunity, an insane run speed, instant stun and kill hands and the ability to break down walls and Rwalls. Among other things. You can just dodge Lasers with the run speed you get.

If Geneticist spend half their round to get Hulk and be overpowered, when do Security players get compensated for spending their entire round in policing a station of man children? (Or any other role that is dedicated to a long term task).

Besides, your not losing your precious Hulk abilities, your just losing your humanity status. So long as you don't act like a dick and attack Silicon's/Humans you'll be perfectly fine. These changes ONLY affect griefers.

But how do I counter the fucking secborgs then? Don't say "EMP", it's really unreliable.

(I'd also be quite content if hulks' ability to smash R-walls was removed, that's just stupid.)

Also, what does this have to do with security. Security have always been free to laser down griefing hulks until they de-hulk.

Well there is the Ion Gun in the Armoury, that's effectively a killing stun weapon. Flashbangs also counter Sec Borgs effectively. Also I recall that Flashes stun Cyborgs and the Robotics Console can lock down and destroy them.

(Also the Security reference was just poking at how you feel that a job that spends half their round doing a task deserves to get a overpowered ability/status, it can apply to any other job with a long term goal).

CreationPro wrote:But how do I counter the fucking secborgs then? Don't say "EMP", it's really unreliable.

Flashbangs.

Not a big fan of flashing myself. And where the hell do I get flashbangs beside robbing sec anyhow? (I, in the current situation, am a geneticist or a CMO.)

CreationPro wrote:Not a big fan of flashing myself. And where the hell do I get flashbangs beside robbing sec anyhow? (I, in the current situation, am a geneticist or a CMO.)

Doesn't flashpowder count?

Flashpowder is basically a Flashbang so in theory it should work.

CreationPro wrote:I used to see Hulks as the only sensible counter to cyborgs who are already unstunnable by default, carry a flash and can go secborg to completely fuck you over if you have some antag needs. (Hello, geneticist here.) (Especially as a geneticist). Moreover, wizards hulk themselves every time they use "Mutate".

The entire point of hulk is to be super strong at the cost of having to spend half the round finding the hulk ability and being unable to use guns. (That, however, changed with the addition of the new super-annoying ability virus, which LEL scrambles DNA.)

Any points against that?

Dude, hulks don't lose anything apart from the ability to be shitlords.

Rogue AIs don't care about human status anyway.

Only Asimov AIs suffer from shitty hulks and they have ZERO ability to stop hulks.

Therefore, this will only prevent griefing shitty hulks from wreaking stuff and not actually do anything to them being a counter to AIs.

CreationPro wrote:I used to see Hulks as the only sensible counter to cyborgs who are already unstunnable by default, carry a flash and can go secborg to completely fuck you over if you have some antag needs. (Hello, geneticist here.) (Especially as a geneticist). Moreover, wizards hulk themselves every time they use "Mutate".

The entire point of hulk is to be super strong at the cost of having to spend half the round finding the hulk ability and being unable to use guns. (That, however, changed with the addition of the new super-annoying ability virus, which LEL scrambles DNA.)

Any points against that?

1) We don't need to babysit antags
2) Antags have special tools (EMP Kits, Dissonant Shriek, etc.)

CreationPro wrote:But how do I counter the fucking secborgs then? Don't say "EMP", it's really unreliable.

(I'd also be quite content if hulks' ability to smash R-walls was removed, that's just stupid.)

Also, what does this have to do with security. Security have always been free to laser down griefing hulks until they de-hulk.

Traitor: EMP Kit, Revolver quad-tap, emag crowbar remove cell, fight them near the singularity, etc. Hell, you're a hulk! Run up and e-sword them! Five hits and it's DEAD.
Changeling: Resonant or Dissonant Shriek into Arm Blade or Hulkfisting. Fight them near singularity. So on. If you're a ling, a cyborg is all but HELPLESS against you.
Wizard: Magic Missile, Blinking about like a shit, casting EMP, using Mutate's laser mode, Ei`nath
Rev: Having your team with you, killing sec for their things. Let's be honest, if hulk somehow happens in rev it should be over soon anyway.
Cult: EMP Papers, stun papers, cult blades
Nuke Ops: Can't feasibly have hulk
Blob: Hurr

All of the above also have easy methods of stealing flashbangs, flashes, etc., from security.

Like... I don't mean to be an asshole. I really don't. But devil's advocacy aside...

If you're an antag, you have SO MANY ways to kill cyborgs. SO many. The most robust weapon a cyborg has is an Engineering Cyborg's 15-damage welder, followed by 10-damage harmbatons and fire extinguishers. It takes 60 damage - 4 welder hits or 6 harmbatons/extinguishings - to cause a de-hulking. This is assuming no armor.

The only ranged threat they can present to a hulk is a secborg laser. That only happens if the AI is rogued, the borg is emagged, or VERY RARELY if an illegal module is installed.


... Speaking of robotics, I've realized that hulks aren't best compared to flypeople or lizards or slimepeople. The mechanized exosuit shares the ability to stun and heavily harm at will, to break down walls and r-walls via RNG and patience with fist or drill, the immunity to stuns, and the status as an "endgame" combat upgrade except you can spread hulk to everyone or nobody whereas exosuits are one-at-a-time, require more effort and resources, and are limited in number. And just like how literally nobody has ever cared that mechs harm the humans in them when they're destroyed slightly if they're being used to grief or antagonize....




tl;dr - Hulk is the Gygax of Genetics
Antagonist Hulks are on more even footing with Cyborgs, but still have a HUGE advantage.
You are either robust enough that you can win with your stun immunity, or you're not robust enough to deserve to.

Hulks are non-human, they've always been non-human. What's the problem here?

Psyentific wrote:Hulks are non-human, they've always been non-human. What's the problem here?

Theres been some admin flipflopping as of recent on if rampaging hulks are human or not.

From the orignal admin decision log way back, Hulks were not human BUT given the same basic rights as human (Much like slimepeople/flypeople/Critterpeople) so long as they are not causing trouble, otherwise if they are an AI can take them down.

Now things are getting kinda screwie, apparently.

It's a battle of new verses old and maybe hulk griffons, or at least feels like it.

Helios127 wrote: From the orignal admin decision log way back, Hulks were not human BUT given the same basic rights as human (Much like slimepeople/flypeople/Critterpeople) so long as they are not causing trouble, otherwise if they are an AI can take them down.

I don't see how this can be screwy at all. If there's a hulk abusing his hulk to smash walls or attack people, he's a threat to humans. Otherwise, he's still non-human, but is afforded the same basic rights as human-derivatives and non-human critters. If Ian asks the AI to open the holodeck, why not?

The only problem here is that this relies on silicons to not be dicks, but if the player is a dickish silicon this will manifest in other ways as well; law one twisting, classicly.

They've ALWAYS been human. There has never been a universe you exist in where hulk's were never human.

Get SOS or Deuryn to make hulk's being nonhuman. Otherwise I ain't enforcin shit

The rules did say, at least when I started playing on this server, that Hulks were non-human.

Take that for what you will.

Brotemis wrote:They've ALWAYS been human. There has never been a universe you exist in where hulk's were never human.

Get SOS or Deuryn to make hulk's being nonhuman. Otherwise I ain't enforcin shit

No, Hulks have always been quasi-human for purposes of law 1/2. As in, if they start getting uppity, fuck 'em up.

Psyentific wrote:

Brotemis wrote:They've ALWAYS been human. There has never been a universe you exist in where hulk's were never human.

Get SOS or Deuryn to make hulk's being nonhuman. Otherwise I ain't enforcin shit

No, Hulks have always been quasi-human for purposes of law 1/2. As in, if they start getting uppity, fuck 'em up.

This is incorrect.

Pandarsenic wrote:

Psyentific wrote:

Brotemis wrote:They've ALWAYS been human. There has never been a universe you exist in where hulk's were never human.

Get SOS or Deuryn to make hulk's being nonhuman. Otherwise I ain't enforcin shit

No, Hulks have always been quasi-human for purposes of law 1/2. As in, if they start getting uppity, fuck 'em up.

This is incorrect.

We've been over this before. What Psyentific said is somewhat correct.

Here is a direct quote from what the rule on Hulks were on the 5th of February 2014 in the Silicon policy.

"Hulks are to be treated as humans unless they start smashing shit, at which point they're free game for silicons to smash until they turn human. As can be expected, if they're in the core and you turn the lasers on, it's sort of hard to time it just right to stop lasering them to death, so you won't get banned if they die from it"

One day later however Intigracy removed this rule.

Pandarsenic wrote:It was a brief, poorly publicized, and soon-reverted piece of implemented policy that was reverted because of vocal people, most of whom liked to be grief-y or shitty as hulks, yelling about it.

He explicitly said that hulks were always nonhuman, which is wildly incorrect.

Future posts saying that hulks were traditionally nonhuman in the past will be edited to be more correct.

Posts saying that whether hulks were traditionally human are presenting a nonargument, because 'tradition' is not a valid argument.

The hulk debate is going to be split into the more harshly-moderated http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 7302#p7302 thread and poll.

I'm pretty much in favor of these proposed changes, they make sense to me. I'll talk to Dueryn about it at our next conspiratorial meeting.

The only problem with this is that most players don't actually read the rules, and that nothing is ever enforced with AIs unless it's obviously awful.

Aside from that it all looks good.

These rules are obvious enough. I'm thinking shiny "WE HAVE A NEW SILICON RULES GO READ U FAGS" in MOTD would be required and then it's their problem if they do not.

I like the policy so far. I think it's well thought out and very sensible. Easily understood, too. However, I think it's worth asking a few questions to test that last point.

Is it allowed for a borg to specifically seek certain orders? And can borgs ever ignore orders they're not equipped to carry out? (e.g. Service borg, kill all the xenomorphs!).

Also, if a borg suspects someone of being a syndicate traitor with harmful items, but is not one hundred percent sure, is it free to ignore a law 2 order to release until it has taken the suspect to the nearest security office/the brig and searched the suspect?

Are borgs under any obligation to attempt to clone/heal people not in crit, or does that constitute a state of equilibrium as far as harm goes?

In the event of a borg unintentionally removing someone's internals in a harmful atmosphere, are they better off releasing the person immediately (so they can put internals back on) or dragging them to a non-harmful atmosphere immediately? I'm thinking particularly of a lack of oxygen, but nothing else (so not plasma/fire/n2o etc). Does the situation change if they're a non-harmful criminal vs a harmful one? Is releasing harmful criminals a long-term enough harm that it matters less than small amounts of suffocation?

Who ever took the time to write the policies at the start of this thread is fabulous! I just want you to know that I want your e-babies!

Just say you are unable if someone orders you to do something you physically cannot, that is by no means breaking a law or denying an order, simply a statement of the fact you cannot do it. You are a hyper intelligent machine and much smarter than the meatbags so you might have to let them know from time to time that you, as a service borg, try as you might, will never be able to kill xenomorphs. Unless you're a robust motherfucker with the tray.

As a sec borg, you should act like a larger beepsky, in which you should keep your sec hud on at all times, probably get a sec radio key, and ask for orders. Acting on your own personal suspicions is not something a borg would do, I don't think, they act on logic and probabilities and shit.

The last questions are a little situational, but I'd say only medical borgs or default borgs are obligated to clone/heal people, since it's their job or primary directive as it were, unless the AI says otherwise. If you have the means to help the crew with your tools, you should probably do it. You don't HAVE to wait for every order to be obligated to do something, but that lies under the purview of general good borgie etiquette and doesn't have much to do with rules.

>Is it allowed for a borg to specifically seek certain orders?
nothing says it can't. If it asks for orders to be a dick and it acts like a dick then it'll get treated like a dick, so no worries here.

>And can borgs ever ignore orders they're not equipped to carry out?
well if you can't physically carry out an order, say as a janiborg asked to wrench a desk then yes. If you mean more along the lines of, janiborg, go kill yourself by running headfirst into a bunch of aliens, then fuck, yes as well.

>Also, if a borg suspects someone of being a syndicate traitor with harmful items, but is not one hundred percent sure, is it free to ignore a law 2 order to release until it has taken the suspect to the nearest security office/the brig and searched the suspect?
don't borgs do this all the time

>Are borgs under any obligation to attempt to clone/heal people not in crit, or does that constitute a state of equilibrium as far as harm goes?
dead people can't be harmed. I'd argue borgs don't have an obligation to heal people according to asimov but I haven't met any borgs who don't try to keep humans healthy.

>are they better off releasing the person immediately
if it's literally a door away, you have literally seconds before the oxyloss does kick in, in which case you can drag them. Going by asimov though, if you can't, you're supposed to let them go even if they're dangerous criminals. Nothing stops you from blocking off all exits and stunning them if they refuse to put on internals or try to yakity sax though, in which case they're harming themselves and you can override them.

paprika wrote:Just say you are unable if someone orders you to do something you physically cannot, that is by no means breaking a law or denying an order, simply a statement of the fact you cannot do it. You are a hyper intelligent machine and much smarter than the meatbags so you might have to let them know from time to time that you, as a service borg, try as you might, will never be able to kill xenomorphs. Unless you're a robust motherfucker with the tray

Drag plasma tank into xeno hive, open valve, watch as your lit zippo cleanses the non-human filth.

10/10

Borgs don't care about petty crimes, they care about harm. Which means, if someone stole a multitool and orders you to let them go, you should probably obey, especially if you have better things to do. Catching petty criminals as borg is shitty anyway. That said, nothing prevents you from reporting them to security. Unless they tell you not to, I suppose. But frankly, petty criminals are none of your concern.

"Let me go!" = press the stop pulling button.

Bonus points if you do so while moving and leave them in the dust.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Borgs don't care about petty crimes, they care about harm. Which means, if someone stole a multitool and orders you to let them go, you should probably obey, especially if you have better things to do. Catching petty criminals as borg is shitty anyway. That said, nothing prevents you from reporting them to security. Unless they tell you not to, I suppose. But frankly, petty criminals are none of your concern.

Secborgs are the worst borgs.

Malkevin wrote:"Let me go!" = press the stop pulling button.

Bonus points if you do so while moving and leave them in the dust.

Ahahaha just imagining that was amazing.

Psyentific wrote:Secborgs are the worst borgs.

It's the problem with security players in general. Many think that they represent JUSTICE and if they don't put that assistant who broke a window in arrivals to get rods for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE in brig or they did not do their job. And if, god forbid, assistant happens to have flash on him, THEY WILL ADD ANOTHER TWO MINUTES, because that's what it says in space law. Nevermind that before that assistant was dragged around handcuffed for good five minutes, then stripped off his clothes for another five.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Psyentific wrote:Secborgs are the worst borgs.

It's the problem with security players in general. Many think that they represent JUSTICE and if they don't put that assistant who broke a window in arrivals to get rods for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE in brig or they did not do their job. And if, god forbid, assistant happens to have flash on him, THEY WILL ADD ANOTHER TWO MINUTES, because that's what it says in space law. Nevermind that before that assistant was dragged around handcuffed for good five minutes, then stripped off his clothes for another five.

The problem is, that sort of is their job. (Leaving aside that anyone who breaks windows to space is a dick who deserves every brig minute they get, or that anyone with a flash who isn't security, a head or a roboticist probably shouldn't have it.) You wouldn't say chemists are dicks for making EXACTLY THE RIGHT CRYO MIX, or janitors are dicks for wanting EVERYTHING TOTALLY CLEAN AT ALL TIMES.