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Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:16 pm
by chocolate_bickie
In light of MSOs new global rule (
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27489) and the election of a new headmin team I think it's time players who create characters from protected groups when not part of that group are banned from the server.
Many of these characters are nothing but offensive caricatures or are just used as an excuse to spam slurs (with the defense being, well it's not racist because my characters black). Even when the character is created without the intent to to offend 'playing' as a minority is just offensive, not to mention the fact you are likely to still behave in a stereotypical way. These characters are basically just blackface in online form and should be treated as such.
Now I'm not advocating players need to send in verification pics, but it's well know several members of the community play minority characters without being among those groups (not naming any names because global rules). The new global rules make it clear that demeaning behavior on the grounds of race, sex, gender orientation or the like is unacceptable. Blackface and the like clearly falls under this.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:39 pm
by PepperPrepper
So you're saying we should make assumptions about peoples race/ sexual orientation based on the way they rp on a L/M RP server?
Tg is not high roleplay, people don't have to roleplay believable real-life characters.
Regardless, if someone is being very offensive you could just ahelp it and I'm sure an admin would talk with them. Not everything needs to be policy.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:59 pm
by Agux909
chocolate_bickie wrote:In light of MSOs new global rule (
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27489) and the election of a new headmin team I think it's time players who create characters from protected groups when not part of that group are banned from the server.
Many of these characters are nothing but offensive caricatures or are just used as an excuse to spam slurs (with the defense being, well it's not racist because my characters black). Even when the character is created without the intent to to offend 'playing' as a minority is just offensive, not to mention the fact you are likely to still behave in a stereotypical way. These characters are basically just blackface in online form and should be treated as such.
Now I'm not advocating players need to send in verification pics, but it's well know several members of the community play minority characters without being among those groups (not naming any names because global rules). The new global rules make it clear that demeaning behavior on the grounds of race, sex, gender orientation or the like is unacceptable. Blackface and the like clearly falls under this.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:04 pm
by Stickymayhem
There's nothing wrong with playing any kind of character if you aren't using it to enact stereotypical bigotry
Tyrone Watermelon is obviously not ok, playing a black character is.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:05 pm
by Tarchonvaagh
Stickymayhem wrote:There's nothing wrong with playing any kind of character if you aren't using it to enact stereotypical bigotry
Tyrone Watermelon is obviously not ok, playing a black character is.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:36 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
If you want non-shitposting then yes - ban blackface since it's bigotry. That's not really a character gimmick anyways and Tyrone Watermelon may as well be an OOC in IC name. You still shouldn't ban people from making non-white characters because they're white irl though. Same applies to the other minority groups.
Like my main character, besides one non-roundstart race I like to play, is literally an arab person. I don't play him as a mocking caricature though.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:26 pm
by chocolate_bickie
PepperPrepper wrote:So you're saying we should make assumptions about peoples race/ sexual orientation based on the way they rp on a L/M RP server?
Tg is not high roleplay, people don't have to roleplay believable real-life characters.
Regardless, if someone is being very offensive you could just ahelp it and I'm sure an admin would talk with them. Not everything needs to be policy.
No, I don't want that. But several players in the community are open about that fact that they play characters of different gender or race to them and a lot of those characters are quite stereotypical/1 dimensional. A lot of them time the characters are defined by their race/gender rather than behaving like actual people.
Stickymayhem wrote:There's nothing wrong with playing any kind of character if you aren't using it to enact stereotypical bigotry
Tyrone Watermelon is obviously not ok, playing a black character is.
From what I've seen a lot of these characters can be stereotypical in less obvious ways, such as talking in broken English that doesn't get picked up by admins.
Ayy Lemoh wrote:If you want non-shitposting then yes - ban blackface since it's bigotry. That's not really a character gimmick anyways and Tyrone Watermelon may as well be an OOC in IC name. You still shouldn't ban people from making non-white characters because they're white irl though. Same applies to the other minority groups.
Like my main character, besides one non-roundstart race I like to play, is literally an arab person. I don't play him as a mocking caricature though.
Can you be 100% sure that your portrayal of someone of Arabic decent will not be offensive to someone of Arabic decent? Couldn't you just play as a [insert Ayy Lemoh's race] character and not risk being accidentally offensive.
Or to put it like this. If I were to walk around wearing black face paint, but acting like I always do, wouldn't that still be offensive? Even though I am not engaging with any stereotypes? Of course it would. And the same can be said for black characters. Even if you behave completely without stereotype your still being incredibly offensive.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:43 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
chocolate_bickie wrote:
Can you be 100% sure that your portrayal of someone of Arabic decent will not be offensive to someone of Arabic decent? Couldn't you just play as a [insert Ayy Lemoh's race] character and not risk being accidentally offensive.
Or to put it like this. If I were to walk around wearing black face paint, but acting like I always do, wouldn't that still be offensive? Even though I am not engaging with any stereotypes? Of course it would. And the same can be said for black characters. Even if you behave completely without stereotype your still being incredibly offensive.
I can't play as my race because people won't make abductors roundstart. Jokes aside, I doubt it will because I don't use it as an excuse for racial humor. Also, you're clearly pulling our fucking legs and I knew this was bait. This is like that time where people said using a reaction image of a black person meant digital blackface. I literally can't take you seriously.
I know MSO banning bigotry is unexpected compared to the past however christ man - if what you're talking about came true then the server would literally be only white people ft. lizards and shit.
Could you fucking imagine if everyone made a character that is basically just a 100% accurate real life self-insert lol god that would be so horrible
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:47 pm
by wesoda25
Imagine you’re random bodying and 2 minutes into the round you get lit up by ahelps asking for verification of your irl skin color.
People who ask for this shit are just as damaging to a community as those who are actually racist/bigoted.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:55 pm
by Stickymayhem
Yeah I'm certain this is concern trolling to be honest
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:59 pm
by wesoda25
“Yes hello sir, I noticed you were playing as a paraplegic character last round, could you perhaps send me a picture of your wheelchair?”
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:18 pm
by Tarchonvaagh
Thread sucks please close
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:19 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
Tarchonvaagh wrote:Thread sucks please close
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:37 pm
by chocolate_bickie
wesoda25 wrote:Imagine you’re random bodying and 2 minutes into the round you get lit up by ahelps asking for verification of your irl skin color.
People who ask for this shit are just as damaging to a community as those who are actually racist/bigoted.
I'm not asking for that, but based on what people have said this thread isn't going anywhere.
Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm certain this is concern trolling to be honest
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll
Having read that I guess it seems this way. I know Sticky knows more about what is and isn't acceptable more than me so if you think this policy discussion is wrong you must be right. I hadn't really thought about how this would be enforced. If popular demand is this needs to be closed for being 'bad' then I guess that's that.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:41 pm
by Stickymayhem
chocolate_bickie wrote:wesoda25 wrote:Imagine you’re random bodying and 2 minutes into the round you get lit up by ahelps asking for verification of your irl skin color.
People who ask for this shit are just as damaging to a community as those who are actually racist/bigoted.
I'm not asking for that, but based on what people have said this thread isn't going anywhere.
Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm certain this is concern trolling to be honest
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll
Having read that I guess it seems this way. I know Sticky knows more about what is and isn't acceptable more than me so if you think this policy discussion is wrong you must be right. I hadn't really thought about how this would be enforced. If popular demand is this needs to be closed for being 'bad' then I guess that's that.
If you're not actually trying to make a point by pretending to care about something you don't care about, and you're not trying to make your opposition look stupid by adopting a dumb take then you're not concern trolling.
That said, this is an opinion that no one on either side of the argument has, has a much greater trade-off in freedom versus reducing bigotry ( heavily restricting what people can play as to cater to a complaint no one has ever heard and isn't represented by anyone real) and will never be enforced on /tg/station despite slippery slope arguments to the contrary.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:50 pm
by chocolate_bickie
Stickymayhem wrote:chocolate_bickie wrote:wesoda25 wrote:Imagine you’re random bodying and 2 minutes into the round you get lit up by ahelps asking for verification of your irl skin color.
People who ask for this shit are just as damaging to a community as those who are actually racist/bigoted.
I'm not asking for that, but based on what people have said this thread isn't going anywhere.
Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm certain this is concern trolling to be honest
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll
Having read that I guess it seems this way. I know Sticky knows more about what is and isn't acceptable more than me so if you think this policy discussion is wrong you must be right. I hadn't really thought about how this would be enforced. If popular demand is this needs to be closed for being 'bad' then I guess that's that.
If you're not actually trying to make a point by pretending to care about something you don't care about, and you're not trying to make your opposition look stupid by adopting a dumb take then you're not concern trolling.
That said, this is an opinion that no one on either side of the argument has, has a much greater trade-off in freedom versus reducing bigotry ( heavily restricting what people can play as to cater to a complaint no one has ever heard and isn't represented by anyone real) and will never be enforced on /tg/station despite slippery slope arguments to the contrary.
That's a fair point. If it hasn't come up during rounds then I suppose it isn't an issue. It just seems like bad taste but if people are being respectful I guess it isn't a problem. And yeah as others have said there isn't really a way to enforce it.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:01 pm
by Tarchonvaagh
I dont think freedom of speech is about saying random slurs to seem "cool", but sure
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:27 pm
by TheMythicGhost
Here we go here we go here we go now.
Real talk? I was completely right about how stuff like this was going to be used, and it's funny that people called me a fucking lunatic for suggesting that it would be this way in the past.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:33 pm
by Ayy Lemoh
TheMythicGhost wrote:Here we go here we go here we go now.
Real talk? I was completely right about how stuff like this was going to be used, and it's funny that people called me a fucking lunatic for suggesting that it would be this way in the past.
The slippery slope is not real yet can also definitely be real - Schrödinger's slope.
When I say this, I mean the fallacy itself alone and not the context here.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:58 pm
by Stickymayhem
TheMythicGhost wrote:Here we go here we go here we go now.
Real talk? I was completely right about how stuff like this was going to be used, and it's funny that people called me a fucking lunatic for suggesting that it would be this way in the past.
Except that literally no one is agreeing with this bad thread but if it helps you freak out about the commies coming to snatch you from your beddy weddy you can totally take one random bad idea from a random player as the full scale intention of the entire administrative deep state
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:19 pm
by Vekter
I'm not entirely convinced this thread was made in good faith. This reads like someone talking about the silly bullshit they're afraid of happening from this rule going into place.
On the off chance that you're not trolling, no. This is an awful idea.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:47 pm
by Critawakets
how to remove segregation in two steps!!
step 1: add segregation
step 2: whoops
seriously though being like "you have to be black to play a black character" is kinda of the racism
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:51 am
by confused rock
just to make sure you guys all know this is bait right?
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:54 am
by cacogen
This is so good. it just keeps happening
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:16 am
by MrStonedOne
chocolate_bickie wrote:In light of MSOs new global rule (
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27489) and the election of a new headmin team I think it's time players who create characters from protected groups when not part of that group are banned from the server.
No.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am
by Qbmax32
nice bait
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:15 am
by NecromancerAnne
Stickymayhem wrote:There's nothing wrong with playing any kind of character if you aren't using it to enact stereotypical bigotry
Tyrone Watermelon is obviously not ok, playing a black character is.
We had a guy who for the longest time was a literal gollywog. I assume he would fall under this right? (Not sure if he got told to change his character or not)
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:46 am
by Vekter
NecromancerAnne wrote:Stickymayhem wrote:There's nothing wrong with playing any kind of character if you aren't using it to enact stereotypical bigotry
Tyrone Watermelon is obviously not ok, playing a black character is.
We had a guy who for the longest time was a literal gollywog. I assume he would fall under this right? (Not sure if he got told to change his character or not)
Yeah no, if your predominant character trait is "modern Minstrel character" you're probably going to be asked to change it.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:15 am
by Tarchonvaagh
Fuck this thread, but what if, for example, someone played as an extremely stereotypical Irish character, constantly saying "ooh-arr" and talking about potatoes. Would he get banned? Probably not, since (and hereby I present you my take on this whole thing) Irish people aren't a victim of extreme discrimination. It all depends on the severity of the case, as some people previously mentioned.
please dont bring up the Irish-British relations
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:20 am
by cacogen
I hope they don't come for Dr. Blackman. Also Irish people are white so you can't be racist towards them.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:42 am
by Farquaar
confused rock wrote:just to make sure you guys all know this is bait right?
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:14 am
by Vekter
Tarchonvaagh wrote:Irish people aren't a victim of extreme discrimination.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:37 am
by Tarchonvaagh
Vekter wrote:Tarchonvaagh wrote:Irish people aren't a victim of extreme discrimination.
This actually depends on how severe you believe "extreme" is
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:33 am
by Kryson
This makes perfect sense.
This type of censorship is a form of self gratification.
When punishing the "evildoers" for playing a bigoted character doesn't hit like it used to, there is always an even more fragile and neurotic person with new grievances the censor can use as justification to exercise power or feel in control again for a brief moment.
If they were not online all the time, perhaps the outlet for their desire for control would be demanding to speak to someones manager or demanding football players kneel for the national anthem.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:35 am
by Arianya
Given the extreme bad faith in the opening of this post, shitposting, and talking about a rule that is technically offtopic to the subject of the OP, plus MSO's response, I'm just gonna go ahead and lock this barring the headmins or the incoming term wanting to issue a response.
Re: Ban players who create 'blackface', 'transface', etc characters
Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:43 am
by Coconutwarrior97
No.
Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.