/tg/Station 13

So on dynamic solo antags can join team antags. This is normally fine you have some cool fights where changlings and cultists show down to try and escape or force a changling to stay down long enough to convert them. where this becomes a problem in my opinion is when you have people willingly going around and joining team antags just to gain more power. I think we should restrict them policy wise to only being able to join team antags unwillingly like we currently do to crew. instead of restricting it on the code side.

I was under the impression this was already server-wide policy for everybody; no willingly converting to team antagonists.
Is the current position that rule 4 overrides the above?

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:I was under the impression this was already server-wide policy for everybody; no willingly converting to team antagonists.
Is the current position that rule 4 overrides the above?

That was prior to having regular antags along side conversion I believe so that'd not be thought of when they made that ruling.

Antags can do what they want so it’s protected in the rules rn. But yeah this would be better. Makes sense ic too since once you are a team antag your current objectives take the back seat

Any role that brainwashes you (all of them bar maybe families) shift your allegiance away from your employer / original leader so no role should ever want to willingly be converted.

If it was like families though where it’s like meh do what you want even if you’re in the gang you can do whatever then I wouldn’t care about that.

Cobby wrote:Any role that brainwashes you (all of them bar maybe families) shift your allegiance away from your employer / original leader so no role should ever want to willingly be converted.

If it was like families though where it’s like meh do what you want even if you’re in the gang you can do whatever then I wouldn’t care about that.

The thing is though that solo antag freedom exists, solo antags have never been obligated to NEED to do their objectives and have always been given full leeway into doing whatever it is that they want.
If they want to be the cult changeling, then they can do it no questions asked.

Obviously apply snowflake manuel policy on manuel, but the LRP servers shouldn't even be questioning on whether or not a solo antag should be barred from joining a team conversion antag willingly.
Any other ruling other than this opens the slippery slope on forcing antags to do their objectives.

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:I was under the impression this was already server-wide policy for everybody; no willingly converting to team antagonists.
Is the current position that rule 4 overrides the above?

rule 4 overrides this.

keepforgettingpw wrote:

Cobby wrote:words

Its at the point where I believe that if its not handled policy wise someone will do it codewise by just not allowing them to be converted which I feel is way worse. Watching people run into revs or cults to get converted for extra gear is so fucking lame.

you know whats more lame? enforcing this and watching lings and traitors team up with sec against rev / cult because they get herd protection and is ban proof

I think it would be better to give some antags immunity to conversions.

Lings, wizards, cultists, revs, heretics, and nukies should be immune to conversion of (other) team antags.

Blood brothers already can't unless their bro is okay with it.
I think traitors letting themselves get converted is fine.

I think one of the dumbest things that has happened to me is getting Fuu ma'jin'd and shipped off to the syndicate by a cult contractor.

Wow contracting would be amazingly easy a cult honestly. Up until all the remaining people on your contract list are cultists that is.

I don't believe this problem is able to be resolved with code solutions due to most conversion antags having internal methods of distinguishing between someone who can be converted or not (mindshield implants), and having someone in the round who is neither mindshielded nor obviously convertible would be a rude kick in the teeth for both parties and only result in further problems. Namely they both out each other as antagonists probably and either kill each other or get each other killed by valids.

But I also think antagonists being unable to willingly convert themselves is kind of missing the actual issue, which might be a code problem, but not one resolved with policy. The root of the problem is that these modes were never meant to exist together, and they're grossly imbalanced when combined.

I don't think it is fair to compromise the freedoms we give antagonists further for the sake of keeping it fair in such a hyper specific scenario that likely might just entrap people into antag bans. We shouldn't tell an antagonist they can do whatever they want, but that willingly forcing yourself into a team role is against the rules, despite as a solo antag you are allowed to do practically anything else they otherwise want. Our other restrictions on solo antagonists are entirely good sportsmanship restrictions and obvious faux pas that compromise server integrity, like no ERP.

We honestly should just axe team antagonists from dynamic and focus on injecting some of our midrounds into dynamic as potential roundstart spawns to keep up the diversity, then the problem solves itself. If these modes entirely disappear from the 24/7 dynamic servers, that's a problem they need to reconcile with and recognize they can't have it both ways without creating a worse problem, which is mistreating players for playing incorrectly in a role they would have to otherwise try very hard to do wrong in.

I don't think team antagonists like blood brothers should be allowed, however, to willingly convert, since that falls under the already existing rule about not doing things that jeopardize your team. Turning yourself against your team mate is definitely going to fall under that rule. If both team mates willingly convert, then it's fine.

NecromancerAnne wrote:-snip-

I would be very sad if we removed team antags from dynamic completely. I wouldn't mind some kind of compromise where dynamic has a team v. single mode that it rolls at the beginning, which would avoid these issues while keeping team antags on Terry

The code wise solution to this is to (temporarily) remove lower priority antag datums on conversion. So say if you get culted as a traitor, you lose the traitor datum and your traitor objectives and would get those back if you get deconverted. Does this matter if you're just doing it to bone with cult stun and esword and dont care about objectives? Not really, but it unmuddies the relationship between the antagonist roles somewhat, and instead of relying on policy to keep people going after the correct objectives they can get some in game guidance that we can probably tie back to configs akin to what ghost roles get on spawn.
Its not quite what this thread is talking about, since it adds consequence to getting converted instead of disallowing it. Thoughts?

skoglol wrote:The code wise solution to this is to (temporarily) remove lower priority antag datums on conversion. So say if you get culted as a traitor, you lose the traitor datum and your traitor objectives and would get those back if you get deconverted. Does this matter if you're just doing it to bone with cult stun and esword and dont care about objectives? Not really, but it unmuddies the relationship between the antagonist roles somewhat, and instead of relying on policy to keep people going after the correct objectives they can get some in game guidance that we can probably tie back to configs akin to what ghost roles get on spawn.
Its not quite what this thread is talking about, since it adds consequence to getting converted instead of disallowing it. Thoughts?

I don't see this as changing much of anything. It means they can't solo greentext, but people following objectives aren't the people willingly being converted anyway, it's the murderboners.

If you made it so that revs and culties couldn't convert Antags (they have a hidden syndie mindshield or syndie training or whatever) the same way as Sec can't be converted, you'd remove this issue entirely.

You could even leave blood brothers out of the immunity because it's not like anyone cares about what happens to nobody brothers - and they don't even get any gear in the first place.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:If you made it so that revs and culties couldn't convert Antags (they have a hidden syndie mindshield or syndie training or whatever) the same way as Sec can't be converted, you'd remove this issue entirely.

You could even leave blood brothers out of the immunity because it's not like anyone cares about what happens to nobody brothers - and they don't even get any gear in the first place.

I dont want to see antags unable to join team antags entirely. I just want it to happen unwillingly such as the way the crew currently do it. antags being forced onto the same side is fun. watching it happen cos lol funny stuns is lame

good to see the fundamental issue with dynamic is finally being addressed by someone who isnt me screaming into the void. the only fix is mutual exclusivity. solo antags and team antags must not exist together, even if they cant work together. cultists/revs running around with traitor equipment because they happened to come across someone who couldnt be converted/was forced by the rules to resist them is in practice the same exact issue as said solo antags willingly joining the team antag for more power.

alternatively, the secret option, is to balance team modes around the idea that they could potentially get equipment from other gamemodes. this is not only way more work, but also a shit idea.

Kel wrote:solo antags and team antags must not exist together, even if they cant work together.

Isn't a big strength of dynamic how it can't be meta'd? Wouldn't doing this reduce that strength?

Solo antags are now restricted to only being able to join conversion based antags unwillingly.
Also know as, they cant just walk up to people and ask to join or allow themselves to be converted.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes.
Domitius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.