/tg/Station 13

They can't be heads so I doubt they would be trusted with something like keeping the peace

(Cough) Loyalty implants. (Cough)

I'm expecting a thread within the next week or two saying they should only be allowed to be assistants.

Janitors, Vekter, Janitors.

I don't understand why you'd let a species that's capable of being utterly smashed by silicons at the first sign of human harm be allowed into the one job that almost always end in some form of human harm.

You have to be some sort of masochist to play security as a lizard to begin with if there's a silicon presence.

Not as Warden, you don't. As Warden you get to chill, hand out guns, and coordinate with the HoS to turn the silicons Corporate.

On the one hand, security are often put into situations where it is preferable that they have their human status when conduction "business" with silicon's, and lord knows security officers have enough to deal with.

On the other hand players have to make the concious choice to want to play as a lizard, thus they accept the consequences of doing that, double so if they chose to play as a lizard security officer. In addition we should be trying to get players to want to play security, and if they want to do that while being a lizard, then so be it. Forcing people to be human only when playing security simply means we have less potential players who will want to play as security.

I do personally think that at minimum all heads of staff must be human, if only for the fact that rev/cult rounds with non-human heads of staff will be hilariously one sided.

No.

MMMiracles wrote:You have to be some sort of masochist to play security as a lizard to begin with if there's a silicon presence.

I fail to see what's so hard to understand about this situation.

Lizard security is rough. Sometimes it's downright impossible. It's always hell.
That's what makes it fun.

I mean, hell, the only reason I could ever see for Lizards to be removed from security would be if it was encouraging shitcurity.
Besides,

Steelpoint wrote:Forcing people to be human only when playing security simply means we have less potential players who will want to play as security.

This is exactly how it goes.
And who would ever want less goodcurity?

If officer Cuffs-the-Crook is prepared to navigate the occasional mess with the AI over who should be listened to in any situation, let him.

Historically being a police officer was an undesirable job, and so lots of otherwise "undesirables" got it. Where do you think the stereotype of the Irish or Polish cop comes from?

I say we Keep Uncle Tom Liz-... I mean Sec Lizards.

lizardsec should stay

scuffles over human harm is almost entirely avoidable and if you want to play with the handicap of being nonhuman than whatever.

it's seriously schizo sometimes with "people should roleplay more! but if something isn't to the immediate advantage of someone it should be removed!"

pick one mang

I've always been open about my hatred of the forked tongue devils known as lizard "people." Thats exactly why I believe Lizards should be security officers. In fact, I prefer lizard security officers over human ones. Why?

Because every human life lost in the name of keeping the peace is a tragedy, but every Lizard life lost is another step towards the final solution of eradicating the parasitic vermin once and for all. It is only fitting that such pathetic, miserable animals would serve their human masters, even if such service requires that they throw their worthless lives away. I would rather see ten lizards gunned down trying to save one human assistant than one human give his life for a hundred lizard men, women, and children.

In summery, human lives are precious. Why would we put them in danger when we could use lizards as our worthless cannon fodder?

Violaceus wrote:

An0n3 wrote:Where do you think the stereotype of the Irish or Polish cop comes from?

What stereotype?

Irish cops in the early days of law enforcement were either

- Easily bribed or corruptible
- Goons with a grudge and power to exploit it [management of officers conduct was almost non-existent.]

Then add on racist imagery back then to add on to these problems
- Lazy or Drunk
- Unintelligent or dim witted
- Violent and willing to fight over the drop of a hat

That's all I know of the old day Irish police [might be missing other things] and Polish I know nothing of those stereotypes.

Just take away the Irish names, add red uniforms and ....well does it sound familiar?

Violaceus wrote:

An0n3 wrote:Where do you think the stereotype of the Irish or Polish cop comes from?

What stereotype?

Not about Polish cops in Poland.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OfficerOHara

This applies to a lesser extent to Poles in America around the same time period as well. Basically a surge in immigration combined with a sudden need for a police force saw a bunch of people who weren't looked on very favorably at the time getting jobs in law enforcement because it was the only option a lot of them had.

Since we have this sudden influx of lizard population on our stations and Sec jobs are still unpopular as fuck it's actually really fitting in a weird way to put those scalies to work in the red.

And yeah if they want to roleplay lazy ass useless lizard cops I might even think that was kinda funny. Officer Dunks-The-Donut slacking off again!

There's literally no reason to stop lizards being basic security unless your sole purpose in doing so is to further reduce the already limited pool of players willing to play security. Making it so lizards can't play security isn't going to encourage lizard players from making human presets, it's gonna encourage them to do other jobs or maint batman.

>Sec lizard arrests greytider
>Borg walks by
>Borg save me from the lizard
>Lizard has no law-based protection to countermand that order.
>Borg has literally no choice but to help the grey unless he believes human harm has occurred.

That said, I don't really care. I'm just saying that that situation WILL occur and it would then be the silicon's DUTY to help the human under default Asimov.

Kangaraptor wrote:There's literally no reason to stop lizards being basic security unless your sole purpose in doing so is to further reduce the already limited pool of players willing to play security. Making it so lizards can't play security isn't going to encourage lizard players from making human presets, it's gonna encourage them to do other jobs or maint batman.

I'm a security borg.
A lizard officer has arrested a human.

The human orders me to kill the lizard officer to free him.
Bee-boop! LAW 2 MUST COMPLY!

I kill the lizard officer.


I was only following orders may not have applied at Nuremberg (actually it did a lot of time), but with borgs they are required to follow all orders without question so long as it does not break law 1.

It does break Rule 1, I think.

DemonFiren wrote:It does break Rule 1, I think.

tha ruelz wrote:Nonhuman player-controlled mobs (slimes, monkeys, slimepeople, lizardpeople, hulks, etc.) are subject to server rules but are not considered human

So yeah I guess it could also cause problems with silicon policy too.

I don't see how it would be a rule 1 violation, in the past if you've ever uploaded laws to dehumanise someone the onus has always been on your shoulders if the borgs do an action that violates the game rules.
More specifically its the golem/construct/shade policy: as a non-antag you can have your own slave army, but if you use them to kill people because they attacked you (e.g. security arresting you for being a shit) then its you that'll be in the shit not the golems.

The same should apply here because the reason we don't restrict Enslaved PCs following their master's orders is to allow antags to use them as a tool.

The person saying "Hey borg kill this person law 2!" would get in trouble as if they had murdered them with their own hands.

It's a rule 1 violation just as much as murdering all the lizards round start as a silicon because your laws don't protect them.

The problem is on the shoulders of the person who decides the silicon shoulder murder them.

if you do it unprompted, it's on you.
If you do it on orders, it's on them.

Which means, yes, as a human antagonist, you can order the silicons to kill all lizards at round start with no fear of repercussions, I guess. And as a silicon, you're not only free to do at the hint of a serious suggestion that you've been ordered to do so, but you're actually required to?

I don't like this conclusion. It stinks to me. But I'll let the headmins' answer stand.

lumipharon wrote:It's a rule 1 violation just as much as murdering all the lizards round start as a silicon because your laws don't protect them.

Not the same, one is going by your own prerogative the other is acting as an antags tool.

Silicons shouldn't be hesitating to carry out an antag's orders for fear of admin intervention, same as golems and constructs shouldn't.

Of course non-antags shouldn't be giving orders to purge the non humans, but as an antag robotocist I should be able to pda the ai to order it's borgs to kill the lizards and bring me their corpses.
As an arrested antag that has done no human harm I should be able to order the borg to turn on the lizard that arrested me in a last ditch escape gambit

Delicious wrote:Laws 1 and 2 should've just been changed to include lizard people instead of all this butterfly effect discriminatory bullshit. There's no reason playing a lizard person should be any more unpleasant than playing a human.

If you jsut remove every difference between lizards and humans, then why have lizards in the first place?

Lizards were better when they were admin only, and stuck to low jobs like botany and janitor.

I miss Xemo.

Why are all of these "lizards shouldn't be X because being a lizard and being X is hard" threads popping up and why do people who don't play lizard starting them? I mean really. We've already had a million other threads for people to whine about how they don't like lizards. Stop trying to disguise more of them under pretense.

cedarbridge wrote:Why are all of these "lizards shouldn't be X because being a lizard and being X is hard" threads popping up and why do people who don't play lizard starting them? I mean really. We've already had a million other threads for people to whine about how they don't like lizards. Stop trying to disguise more of them under pretense.

I've noticed a tendency for people to only like 'roleplay' when 'roleplay' justifies them being shitty to other people, allowing it to be within the rules because it's 'IC'. As soon as roleplay involved any effort, it suddenly becomes a 'buzzword'.

These lizard threads, for instance, are an example of shitty people trying to use the concept of roleplay to be shitty, however many of them wouldn't like the idea of being forced to actually... Roleplay. Without being omnipotent space gods.

Maybe it's actually you that can't rp?

Rping is playing your role within a setting, our setting is that robots are slaves to their laws and that lizards are second class citizens with no ai protection.

Seriously,why is every rp snob such a limp wristed faggot?

Malkevin wrote:Maybe it's actually you that can't rp?

Rping is playing your role within a setting, our setting is that robots are slaves to their laws and that lizards are second class citizens with no ai protection.

Seriously,why is every rp snob such a limp wristed faggot?

>RP snob

First time I've bothered to get involved in a discussion about RP. Ingame, I go with the flow, do my job, interact with people as they are and deal with things as they are.

Dunno why you're being such a faggot, though I suppose it goes to prove my point. You want the "roleplay" that allows you to be an insufferable cunt, but won't take any of the inherent disadvantages to your situation that, shock horror, is also roleplay. I suppose it's to be expected for the guy whose cock was smeared all over the policy to create that abomination that is sec policy and 'space law', though. :^)

EDIT: I figured I'd throw an example in: You'll all sit here and go "YEAH FUCK THE AI!" or "FUCK THE LIGGERS! SECOND CLASS CITIZENS! THAT'S ROLEPLAY" but as soon as the concept of, say, stopping metagaming comes up, you're all on the backfoot going "b-but this isn't bay fuck off faggot!" Now, I know what you're all gonna say - 'there's no metagaming'. Wrong. Whilst yes, there is no metagaming within the context of the rules that occurs on any regular or accepted basis, the fact that every Tom, Dick and Harry on SS13 is allowed to know everything about anything that could possibly exist is, in the sense of ROLEPLAY, metagaming.

So yeah, either you take the good with the bad (the 'good', in this case, being allowed to treat people like shit and justify it shoddily with 'm-muh roleplays'), or you don't take either. Faggot.

Violaceus wrote:And who said that roleplaying low status lizards automatically means you are a powergaming faggot who doesn't "RP" at all?

You are an abomination, Space Law is good.

See the edit. Way to twist the words to deflect, though; it was a direct response to Malkevin, not everybody holding a similar opinion.

Violaceus wrote:Will you advocate abolition of silicon laws, because with them they are basically slaves to humans and humans love to roleplay ordering silicons but also metagame so they should choose one?

Lizards are third class citizens and there is zero reason to link them and their status to metagaming, it doesn't have anything to do with "roleplay quality".

It does when it's clear the people pushing for the 'roleplay' are doing so to as a justification for being shit, not for the sake of immersion.

You can't abolish silicon laws for mechanical reasons; an AI being purged at roundstart is just asking for plasma fires, shocked doors and stun-spacing secborgs.

As for 'metagame', I seriously don't think you understood the context in which 'metagame' is used - I'd hazard a guess and say you have no fucking idea what you're talking about to begin with, because so far you've failed to comprehend the point being made, so I'll try dumbing it down further:

If you want to treat people like shit because 'my roleplay immulshions!', then you should damn well be willing to take on other aspects of roleplay (ie: a botanist shouldn't know how to build a TTV bomb off the top of his head, a greyshit shouldn't know the ins-and-outs of a secretive space cult, etc.) or you look like nothing more than a griefing faggot. I don't agree with making this server 'hard' roleplay, but I have to question what 'light' roleplay actually means. Does it mean using shoddy claims of 'roleplay' to treat people like shit without taking on any disadvantages inherent with true roleplay? Does it mean doing your job to the barest definition of 'roleplay' in that you speak as your character and do something vaguely related to their department? I don't know, you fucking tell me.

For a place birthed from /tg/ you guys sure don't have any grasp on the concept of roleplay, it's pretty fucking stupid, honestly.

Violaceus wrote:I understand you perfectly. You assume that if botanist can build singularity, it means that all other roleplay should not exist.

Or that if we allow any kind of roleplay, including being rude to third class citizens, we should forbid botanists making singularity.

Not allow.

Enforce.

If you enforce one kind of roleplay, then you should enforce others as well.

Kangaraptor wrote: Not allow.

Enforce.

This guy gets it. "B-but it allows for roleplay" was a retarded argument from the very beginning. The whole thing is just a farce. "ayy lmao gas the lizards" describes it about right.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Kangaraptor wrote: Not allow.

Enforce.

This guy gets it. "B-but it allows for roleplay" was a retarded argument from the very beginning. The whole thing is just a farce. "ayy lmao gas the lizards" describes it about right.

My whole problem with these line of threads isn't the idea of roleplay, it's that the people making and supporting them are the same people who would fight TOOTH AND FUCKING NAIL against any attempt at disadvantaging them, personally, for the sake of roleplay and immersion.

But it's totally okay to do it to other people because 'muh immulsions' and 'ayy lmao meme cannons at maximum overmeme'.

The only difference here is that this only affects people who willingly change their species from Human to Lizardman, meaning its not something that affects people unless they want it to affect them.

Steelpoint wrote:The only difference here is that this only affects people who willingly change their species from Human to Lizardman, meaning its not something that affects people unless they want it to affect them.

This is true, but it doesn't invalidate anything I've said.

Fuck off to bay then where they require your ic knowledge be limited to what a present day person would know then if unrestricted knowledge is such a bugbear to you?

1. US being able to ic know anything from different jobs to how an antags work is part of our setting and has been part of that for years

2. I had no part in writing sec policy,that was steel point,in fact it was written when I was on a break so I wasn't even here to have a say in it

3. The changes I wrote into space law were passed by a two thirds majority in a player vote

4. I have no idea who you are

Violaceus wrote:Noone enforces lizard hate on players. It's their choice to not like lizards.

And if you are talking about command positions, there is a good reason for that: revolution mode as people previously explained.

Making lizards equal to humans in all terms strips this race from it's unique flavor and would open a gate to add cat-beasts, tentacle-things and other shit, because "hey its just a sprite difference so why not"

>Noone enforces lizard hate on players. It's their choice to not like lizards.

Specifically this.

If this is the case, then why do threads like this keep popping up? People clearly want to enforce this rolepaly footnote with no consideration for the implications (ie: in this case, simply reducing the number of people that will get chosen to play security, as has been previously mentioned).

And the revolution thing could've been solved long before AIs were even a thing by making Corporate the default lawset, which would also make more sense as far as the setting is concerned. But that's neither here nor there, because there are also mechanical reasons for not doing that.

also

>that slippery slope argument

just no.

Malkevin wrote:Fuck off to bay then where they require your ic knowledge be limited to what a present day person would know then if unrestricted knowledge is such a bugbear to you?

Are you fucking illiterate or something?

me wrote:My whole problem with these line of threads isn't the idea of roleplay, it's that the people making and supporting them are the same people who would fight TOOTH AND FUCKING NAIL against any attempt at disadvantaging them, personally, for the sake of roleplay and immersion.

But it's totally okay to do it to other people because 'muh immulsions' and 'ayy lmao meme cannons at maximum overmeme'.

me wrote:I don't agree with making this server 'hard' roleplay, but I have to question what 'light' roleplay actually means. Does it mean using shoddy claims of 'roleplay' to treat people like shit without taking on any disadvantages inherent with true roleplay? Does it mean doing your job to the barest definition of 'roleplay' in that you speak as your character and do something vaguely related to their department? I don't know, you fucking tell me.

I play here because it ISN'T bay and it's easy to waste time, so you can kindly fuck right off. Saying "fuck off to bay" doesn't do much good when I've openly expressed that I don't really like bay. Learn to read you shitstain.

Malkevin wrote:1. US being able to ic know anything from different jobs to how an antags work is part of our setting and has been part of that for years

excuses, excuses, shitty ones at that. Admit you like the metagame and leave it at that, it's honest. At the end of the day, I do too; the difference is that I don't try to justify my ebin memes lmao under the guise of 'roleplay' because I know better.

Malkevin wrote:4. I have no idea who you are

Good? Not like it's relevant to anything.

Anyway, whatever, y'all can keep being retards all you want, it's 4:15 AM and I'm /////done

Basically what kangaraptor is bringing up here is this discussion.

"It's what my character would do!" has looooooooooong been an excuse used by that guy to excuse being a dick under the guise of "it's IC", and the only places that really come close to accepting it are the kinds of places that are really fuckin' hardcore about roleplaying like it's a cardinal fuckin' sin to break character.

That is to say, "light RP" places don't get to use that excuse. Being a dick is being a dick, regardless of whether "it's IC" or not.

"Being a dick" is so subjective I don't even know why people keep bringing it up.

"Being a dick" can be removing people from the round to WAAAAHHH HE HURT MY FEELINGS WITH MEAN WORDS depending on who you ask.

Since this is a light roleplay server, players are encouraged to roleplay. If the popular fluff is that lizards are second class citizens, than lizards are going to be treated like second class citizens. If you think thats "being a dick" than either convince people why they are wrong, grow thicker skin, or stop playing as a lizard. If we disallow fluff from influencing how people play the game, we are no longer even a light roleplaying server and we enter some very murky waters of what is and isn't "being a dick."

P.S. I still do not support lizards being locked out of security roles.

This has nothing to do with shitting on lizards ingame. IC wise I don't give a shit about lizards, and at most make lizard insults if being fucked about with by a lizard, as opposed to generic insults if fucked about by a human.

However it had long been (in our flimsy) canon that lizards were 2nd class citizens and had jobs like botany and janitor (except the rare round as xemo as captain).
This worked fine when it was just people like xemo, but not that anyone can be lizard, but of course don't want to deal with the IC drawbacks of doing so, hence people aguring about job restrictions and asimov laws.

If lizards previously, when they were admin ony been treated exactly the same as humans, then I would have no problem with it. But they weren't, so if people argue then that lizard should be treated the same in every regard with no drawback, then what is the point in having them since it all it does is cause drama with no real IC or RP reason for them to exist.

Well, I say either make them completely identical to humans and leave it as flavour choice, or separate them altogether by adding racial traits.
What we have right now is some uneasy not-quite-balance that, as far as I could see, leaves no one quite happy.

DemonFiren wrote:racial traits.

Yes, please! Lizards should be cold-blooded so they woudl move superslow if even slightly cold, but also could get to move superfast if warm/hot!
Wrong thread, sry. No to lizardcurity because it's a position of authority over someone, and they should have no authority.

They should take extra heat damage because lizards can't regulate their body temp, also go in a coma and die when its cold.

kosmos wrote:

DemonFiren wrote:racial traits.

Yes, please! Lizards should be cold-blooded so they woudl move superslow if even slightly cold, but also could get to move superfast if warm/hot!

Well, not super fast, but a modest buff to speed in general in warmer environments would be a good offset for the increased vulnerability to anything cold (which, coincidentally, makes lizards easier kills for cryo!lings). The idea of racial traits has, however, been brought up in the past - and for whatever reason gets shot down. The argument either way seems to be 'm-muh snowflakes'. Either lizards become 'basically humans with snowflake skins' or 'the differences just encourage furfags to play their snowflakes'. It just keeps going around in a circle. Ad infinitum.

Lizard Racial Traits
Positive
Slightly faster when not cold
Hunger diminishes slower

Negative
Extra burn damage from all sources
Large speed drop when cold

Make them a tad more robust in unarmed when wearing no or fingerless gloves, too.

And don't you DARE go Bay on them and let them eat small creatures.

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