/tg/Station 13

hello policy creators and readers,

i just noticed from looking at a relevant ban appeal that we don't actually explicitly mention doxxing in our in-game or global forum rules.

it's a given that it's punished, and rightfully strictly, but i can't help but feel for consistency sake it may help to mention the section in the discord rules within all three places we enforce rules. the section in the discord rules is as follows...

/tg/ Discord Rules wrote:7: Doxing and SWATing: Doing it, encouraging it, or joking about it will lead to a permanent in-game, Discord, and forum ban.

the relevant pages that i am suggesting we amend are found below

global forum rules
in-game rules (on wiki)

best wishes,
bobbah 'bee' brown

I disagree, these are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

oranges wrote:I disagree, these are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

I agree, in fact all rules should be taken down because they are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

oranges wrote:I disagree, these are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

to this extent i may come to the conclusion that you are correct; i suppose i just felt we lose out on not emphasizing the severity of that specific thing, but maybe that is a bit overkill for something that is otherwise obvious.

with mixed opinions,
bobbah 'bee' brown

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:

oranges wrote:I disagree, these are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

I agree, in fact all rules should be taken down because they are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

There's no chance of confusion with these rules and therefore no reason to list them, but good straw house

bobbahbrown wrote:

oranges wrote:I disagree, these are so obviously covered by rule 1 that writing them down seems ridiculous.

to this extent i may come to the conclusion that you are correct; i suppose i just felt we lose out on not emphasizing the severity of that specific thing, but maybe that is a bit overkill for something that is otherwise obvious.

with mixed opinions,
bobbah 'bee' brown

This is correct. The purpose of a rule isn't just to have an excuse to remove someone when they break it. It's also to sanction and condemn specific behaviours, and thereby reduce incidents of said behaviours occurring.

Case in point: "Don't be a dick" is much less condemnatory of doxxing than "Doxxing and SWATing are completely unacceptable: Doing it, encouraging it, or joking about it will lead to a permanent in-game, Discord, and forum ban."

I've never seen a ban appeal on doxxing that used the argument that it's not against the rules. Anyone banned for doxxing who wants to appeal it will always argue their actions were not doxx. Everyone intrinsically knows doxxing is shit and if it's confirmed you did it no one in the community will defend you. It wouldn't hurt to have it written down somewhere even if it's just a extreme example of dickish behavior but I agree with oranges that it's not necessary to list it; everyone knows it's a instant ban that will make you a pariah in most internet communities.

Doxxing is one of those things on the internet that's so shitholey that even the people who do it know its wrong and they're not allowed to do it.

I agree with boobah

I like it but I do really want the rules to be shorter

People like bobbah, cacogen and Farquard are why bleach comes with a warning not to drink it

Should they have put warnings on adminbus for you oranges?

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Doxxing is one of those things on the internet that's so shitholey that even the people who do it know its wrong and they're not allowed to do it.

And the OOC risk it presents is so much greater than any other rulebreak which is why it's one of the things that servers will mirror bans over

Like, if someone welderbombs the bar on paradise then who gives a shit, the worst case scenario is that they're prone to welderbombing for stupid reasons in which case you just ban them when they do it, no real lasting damage is done

Someone that's okay with doxxing and swatting on the other hand presents an active threat to everyone around them that can't be undone with a simple server reset so you can't afford to just go "oh let's wait for them to do it and then ban them if they do", you can't afford to wait for the harm to take place before punishing them

You can't "wait and see" on this shit, if someone doxxes or is okay with doxxing then you fucking excommunicate them from everywhere before they can harm anyone else

oranges wrote:People like bobbah, cacogen and Farquard are why bleach comes with a warning not to drink it

1. You can't know for certain unless you try it yourself
2. I wanted to be contrarian
3. I wanted to call bobbah boobah like the meme

Screemonster wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Doxxing is one of those things on the internet that's so shitholey that even the people who do it know its wrong and they're not allowed to do it.

And the OOC risk it presents is so much greater than any other rulebreak which is why it's one of the things that servers will mirror bans over

Like, if someone welderbombs the bar on paradise then who gives a shit, the worst case scenario is that they're prone to welderbombing for stupid reasons in which case you just ban them when they do it, no real lasting damage is done

Someone that's okay with doxxing and swatting on the other hand presents an active threat to everyone around them that can't be undone with a simple server reset so you can't afford to just go "oh let's wait for them to do it and then ban them if they do", you can't afford to wait for the harm to take place before punishing them

You can't "wait and see" on this shit, if someone doxxes or is okay with doxxing then you fucking excommunicate them from everywhere before they can harm anyone else

Exactly

fyi this is already an official blacklistable offense, as stated by MSO during that time I got falsely accused of doxxing by a headmin

oranges wrote:People like bobbah, cacogen and Farquard are why bleach comes with a warning not to drink it

Yes.

A warning label on a toxic chemical will reduce the likelihood that an ignorant person will poison themselves, even if only to a modest degree.

Likewise, a written rule against a harmful behaviour will reduce the likelihood that an ignorant person will harm another player by engaging in that behaviour, even if only to a modest degree.

This has always been an immediate perma and I don't think it really needs a rule to specify that. It's so obviously objectively evil that there's no question someone should be permabanned for it.

Vekter wrote:This has always been an immediate perma and I don't think it really needs a rule to specify that. It's so obviously objectively evil that there's no question someone should be permabanned for it.

imagine actually having to be told "don't commit actual real-life crimes against other community members"

Farquaar wrote:

oranges wrote:People like bobbah, cacogen and Farquard are why bleach comes with a warning not to drink it

Yes.

A warning label on a toxic chemical will reduce the likelihood that an ignorant person will poison themselves, even if only to a modest degree.

Likewise, a written rule against a harmful behaviour will reduce the likelihood that an ignorant person will harm another player by engaging in that behaviour, even if only to a modest degree.

Spoiler:

inb4 "lol if they were stupid enough to drink bleach i'm glad their ded"

Interesting choice to try to defend this position. I'm drinking bourbon and bleach and doubting any need for a label.

In fact, I would like to add bleach to the game.

cacogen wrote:

Farquaar wrote:

oranges wrote:People like bobbah, cacogen and Farquard are why bleach comes with a warning not to drink it

Yes.

A warning label on a toxic chemical will reduce the likelihood that an ignorant person will poison themselves, even if only to a modest degree.

Likewise, a written rule against a harmful behaviour will reduce the likelihood that an ignorant person will harm another player by engaging in that behaviour, even if only to a modest degree.

Spoiler:

inb4 "lol if they were stupid enough to drink bleach i'm glad their ded"

Interesting choice to try to defend this position. I'm drinking bourbon and bleach and doubting any need for a label.

In fact, I would like to add bleach to the game.

meanwhile on polaris

While of course doxxing is gonna get you yeeted right quick it's not the only case of obviously perma-able offences that aren't listed.

Several for example would be using hacked clients, doing things to purposely lag out/crash the server, and linking fraudulent/phishing sites in ooc chat. If we started recording unacceptable malicious acts we would be creating a non-exhaustive list that would feel really redundant in the middle of our rules page.

To start one for something that I feel is obviously malicious like doxxing is unnecessary at best when coupled with our already bloated rules page.

add a rule that says "tracking down and murdering other players irl may warrant a temporary antagonist ban" while we're at it

I don't really see any harm to adding this, aside from the fact that our rules page is getting pretty long as it is.

Could just add it as a corollary to rule 1, or even to rule 8 (since doxxing probably fits nicely under "creepy shit").

Vekter wrote:aside from the fact that our rules page is getting pretty long as it is.

This is reason enough to not add it imo,

1. Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules, this also includes harassing a player OOC (Out of character). Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.

Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules, this also includes harassing a player OOC (Out of character).

this also includes harassing a player OOC (Out of character).

harassing a player OOC

i think people have said a lot of good things in this thread, and i suppose it may be counterproductive by making these two rule lists unnecessarily larger.

my thought process in proposing this change was to ensure that players understood that it's a very sensitive topic to even joke about, as we state in our discord rules, but perhaps as oranges and others have stated that may be unnecessary to state in our forum and in-game rules.

this proposal may be looking to find an issue where there is none, and to this extent perhaps it is best to close it.

best wishes,
bobbah 'bee' brown