/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:42 pm**

Sticky has been suggesting some form of anarchy server for like two elections now and I think it's an idea worth talking about.

We'd probably have to keep a few rules like 8 and 11.

Let's try an anarchy ruleset on Bagil. Give players an opportunity to fully demonstrate their mechanical robustness, a chance to try out a combo or cause destruction.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:47 pm**

yea i think thats a good idea

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:02 pm**

It's gimmicky and just reinforces the idea that LRP = NRP (as long as it is continued to be called Bagil)

You didnt actually explain why it would be good

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:14 pm**

(((

Tried to edit this post almost right after i made it but lost connection and just got it back now!

Once my internet is a bit more stable I’ll write something less reactionary and not nice =/

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:16 pm**

no (personal opinion, not headmin ruling)

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:30 pm**

I don't think that having an anarchy server would be good, especially not on Bagil.

I've seen a couple of all-traitor rounds and they've gone over quite well. But like chaotic, high-threat rounds, I think they should be done sparingly, not 24/7.

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:46 pm**

Cobby wrote:It's gimmicky and just reinforces the idea that LRP = NRP (as long as it is continued to be called Bagil)

You didnt actually explain why it would be good

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:48 pm**

Isn't this what downstreams like hippie were for?

Posted: **Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:52 pm**

I think it'd be an interesting thing to try but it should be done on a completely new server rather than try to force it on an existing community, then we'll know if there's any real interest in it if it doesn't become a ghost town after a week

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:19 am**

just do a monthly anarchy day the way goon does.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:45 am**

Cobby wrote:It's gimmicky and just reinforces the idea that LRP = NRP (as long as it is continued to be called Bagil)

You didnt actually explain why it would be good

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:35 am**

I'd be more interested in seeing use of event hall for something like this personally. Along with a calendar of events and things going down people can check out. Like anarchy rounds one week, maybe increased events or threat another week, etc.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:58 am**

SkeletalElite wrote:just do a monthly anarchy day the way goon does.

ass day is a great feature

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:16 am**

Would this mean I can say nigger and faggot on Bagil in a hateful way?

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:39 am**

It will get stale really quickly. We shouldn't make a whole server a gimmick, that's a dumb idea.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:45 am**

we should have no place for that kind of playstyle on /tg/ ever.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:57 am**

Alright have time for an actual post now

First of all, I resent the designation of Bagil for such a server. What becomes of the current culture? What about the work both admins and players have made contributing to the culture and server? Are we supposed to bend over and let the hippie tier retards who will flood the server have their way?

That actually sort of leads me to my next point: Who exactly is the target audience for such a server? Our rules are already loose and offer a great deal of leeway in player interaction. This is all to keep the experience up to standard and keep it as enjoyable as possible. Why would we offer a server without this bare minimum of reatriction? Have people really tricked themselves into thinking it will become anything but a breeding ground of toxicity and dickishness?

We don’t need to cater to every play style. We don’t need to cater to every type of player. Something I’ve taken away from Manuel is that while it does whisk away players from our other servers (which I assume is the motivation behind this proposal), it also actively attracts players who desire the advertised experience. I don’t want people who can’t respect and follow our already very relaxed ruleset to have any place or voice within the community.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:13 am**

I refuse to let the final death of basil being the slow game more-rp server happen. Never! Neverrrrr!

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:58 pm**

I would be interested in this, but I don't want to see Bagil used for it. Even as someone who's pretty much never played there - I would be very upset if we used Sybil or Manuel for this and I don't think that they should have their server taken either. Like Manuel took a lot of the RP focused players from LRP, this would take the NRP focused players from our existing servers, improving quality everywhere else - I do agree with the concerns about it becoming a toxic hell, but this seems to me to be what some people want, and if giving them this is the sacrifice that we need to make to get this culture under control, then I can live with it.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:02 pm**

Event hall should be our anarchy server.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:13 pm**

Hell no. Anarchy servers in /tg/station will, without fail, devolve into a gamer gear murderbone and cuban pete speedrun fests marred by countless amounts of slurs, gamer words, and painfully unfunny "jokes". In addition, this will force a *lot* of moderation to be on sec's side, which the game is far from balanced for thanks to the trend of a new sec nerf being posted to the git every tuesday. Which, on a similar note, this will promote painful abuse of jobs, most notable being sec speedrunning harmbatoning the clown into crit, engies speedrunning putting instant kill internet gas into distro, medbay speedrunning their own stress limits, and sci getting tided into and robusted round start because unga unga tider want gamer gear.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:19 pm**

oranges wrote:we should have no place for that kind of playstyle on /tg/ ever.

Cobby wrote:It's gimmicky and just reinforces the idea that LRP = NRP (as long as it is continued to be called Bagil)

You didnt actually explain why it would be good

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:56 pm**

Cobby wrote:It's gimmicky and just reinforces the idea that LRP = NRP (as long as it is continued to be called Bagil)

You didnt actually explain why it would be good

wow what if we like made a rule that said that LRP wasn't NRP

woah what

no way

the point of the anarchy server is it's designed to be a mixer with primarily people throwing one or two rounds at it just to blow off steam and not feel the desire to need antag to enjoy the chaotic violent parts of the game.

I wouldn't use an existing server, but use one of the dead servers instead. Roleplay should absolutely be reinforced to the same standards as other /tg/station servers, frankly I think Terry is probably too low atm anyway

Don't imply roleplay has to be thrown out for a more violent server. The terry low rp is a terry thing, not a low rule thing. That server has the same ruleset as any other.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:11 pm**

I didn’t mention terry (this is a bagil thread?) and we DO have these rules it’s just subject to admins enforcing them (and indirectly players reporting).

We have modes designed around “letting steam off” while still upholding the general barebones rules (see rev with relaxed escalation), If a person can’t RP on the server that has the low bar I’m not sure how you are going to mental long jump to they’ll be able to if the bar is pretty much removed.

Also I now have to deal with the occasional “sorry I thought I was in the anarchy server” and that will peeve me

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:58 pm**

Yes - the less "rp" the better.

i would love a nrp server, and you exile all retards (like me) to it, and i dont have to see Manuel cringe. everyone is happy.

Posted: **Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:44 pm**

people like the person above are why we should not have anything that bears the resemblance of nrp

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:34 am**

people like the person above are why we need an nrp server

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:02 am**

Not a fan, really - as this cuts down on the amount of LRP servers there are for US players, and would put a lot of bagil players into a position where they're effectively homeless, because not everyone from there wants to shift over to Sybil. Genuinely think it's fine as to where it is, as an anarchy server would also be encouraging the sort of behaviour we don't really want on any of the other servers... I feel like it's not a neccesary change.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:37 am**

Im personally not interested.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:18 am**

Thanks everyone for taking time out of your day to engage this thread.

oranges wrote:we should have no place for that kind of playstyle on /tg/ ever.

I think oranges has good points about things, so I'm inclined to agree with him.
Having that said, I still think that this is a concept worth talking about, even if only in a hypothetical way.

Several people wrote:Putting it on Bagil is a bad idea.

This makes sense, putting it on Bagil is probably a bad idea. I would like to take a moment to say that my initial suggestion of Bagil wasn't meant as any sort of slight against the server or those who play there, it was more in regards to which of our servers have the most mechanically robust players (Bagil, Terry) and what alternative spaces would be available (Sybil). Part of the point of the anarchy server would be to allow players to have a space of pure mechanical competition and allow them to really push the limits of what the game is capable of. I assumed that Bagil would be able to handle such a space easily. Anyway, putting it on Bagil is a bad idea, scratch that.

Some people wrote:NRP haha hell yeah

I'm not suggesting NRP, I'm suggesting a relaxed ruleset that would would allow for self-regulation among the crew and greater opportunities to demonstrate mechanical skill at the game. I don't think that such an environment has no RP or would not allow it.

It's possible that if we provide a server for players to murderbone with the flavor of the week that might provide an outlet and reduce the "Wow I don't mind muderbone but it's happening constantly" sentiments that seem to crop up within the community.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:32 am**

From what i've seen in various web communities, 'containment' sections mostly end up becoming magnets and echo chambers for whatever they're supposed to contain, and eventually seep into the mainstream sections even more than before.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:27 am**

XDTM wrote:From what i've seen in various web communities, 'containment' sections mostly end up becoming magnets and echo chambers for whatever they're supposed to contain, and eventually seep into the mainstream sections even more than before.

Like Manuel? or does this only go one way?

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:59 am**

XDTM wrote:From what i've seen in various web communities, 'containment' sections mostly end up becoming magnets and echo chambers for whatever they're supposed to contain, and eventually seep into the mainstream sections even more than before.

This is also a good point, I've seen the same thing happen before also. I'd like to think that we could control what leaks from a containment server - but we either can't or don't want to control it right now on the regular servers.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:47 pm**

Irad wrote:
XDTM wrote:From what i've seen in various web communities, 'containment' sections mostly end up becoming magnets and echo chambers for whatever they're supposed to contain, and eventually seep into the mainstream sections even more than before.
Like Manuel? or does this only go one way?

Manuel included!

In my personal opinion, though, the kind of player attracted to Manuel culture generally brings more value to the servers than the kind of player attracted to an advertised lack of rules.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:52 pm**

XDTM wrote:
Irad wrote:
XDTM wrote:From what i've seen in various web communities, 'containment' sections mostly end up becoming magnets and echo chambers for whatever they're supposed to contain, and eventually seep into the mainstream sections even more than before.
Like Manuel? or does this only go one way?
Manuel included!

In my personal opinion, though, the kind of player attracted to Manuel culture generally brings more value to the servers than the kind of player attracted to an advertised lack of rules.

I think what he's implying is that manuel has done the exact opposite, it's sucked the RP that already existed out of other servers, not leaked RP into the others despite determined efforts by admins to stop people from acting like "Lrp" means shouting "yolo swagmogus" as you beat the clown to death for doing toxins suboptimally

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:16 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
I think what he's implying is that manuel has done the exact opposite, it's sucked the RP that already existed out of other servers, not leaked RP into the others despite determined efforts by admins to stop people from acting like "Lrp" means shouting "yolo swagmogus" as you beat the clown to death for doing toxins suboptimally

My point is that either Manuel and a proposed anarchy server would either both promote their culture, or they would both act as an containment, you can't cherry-pick how you perceive policies work - either way there is no data backing up either point.

For me it's nice - I don't have to go to Manuel, and Manuel players don't have to see me, the only bad outcome that happens for me is when Manuel players push to git.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:30 pm**

This game gives players too much power over each others' experiences for it to be enjoyable with almost no rules. It'll just lead to people abusing this power to make each other miserable. I foresee most players dead observing while murderbonerers and metacliques roam the halls, treating the game like their personal sandbox. It'll be survival of the fittest, where the fittest are the worst griefers. It will generate a lot of salt, some of which the admins will have to deal with.

I was around for Sigyn (experimental low rules server) and while TLE was there overseeing it, players definitely abused their power over each other just because they could. Killing or permabrigging people for flimsy reasons.

Why does Sticky want this anyway? How does he foresee it suiting him? Jack Steiner murderbone round every round? He loves to be the star of the show.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:15 pm**

cacogen wrote: Why does Sticky want this anyway? How does he foresee it suiting him? Jack Steiner murderbone round every round? He loves to be the star of the show.

Also I would explicitly ban murderbone from the anarchy server, similar to how it's banned on manual but applied only to non-antags (e.g. antags have total freedom, non-antags have manual antag levels of freedom)

I ran low rule rounds in the past and they were extremely fun and successful. I did this dozens of times and always with interesting and sustainable results. The reality of reduced escalations is that while assistants can be shitters, so can security, meaning your bullshit line toeing actually results in you getting spaced by an aggressive security team and you end up doing less overall damage to the round than just low escalation griefing for 45 minutes. It ironically made rounds better than a lot of the worst shit I see on Terry.

I keep bringing Terry up because it ostensibly has the same ruleset and yet the line toeing grief and shittery at all levels makes it chaotic and player interactions unpleasant a lot of the time. I don't mind playing in that culture but I think it's worse than if there were no rules at all.

I want to prove that's the case. There's no weird self-promoting conspiracy I'm just confident it's a great idea that will have positive knock on effects for the whole community. It's not a containment server, it's the exact opposite. It's a place anyone from any server can go to fuck around for a couple rounds, get bored and go back to their regular rounds with their regular community having worked out some violent tendencies.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:25 pm**

Wasn't the game more like this years ago? You know, with player agency being a predominant factor.

What about using Campbell's slot? Is it available as an option? If you're gonna run an experiment do it on an unused slot.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:42 pm**

There's a possibility that many players will join the server to fuck around, but instead just get consistently outrobusted by the players who specialize in it and just become the sacrificial victims for the fun of the current murderboner. It would kinda defeat the point of being stress relief if it ends up being always the same people getting it.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:28 pm**

Stickymayhem wrote: I ran low rule rounds in the past and they were extremely fun and successful. I did this dozens of times and always with interesting and sustainable results. The reality of reduced escalations is that while assistants can be shitters, so can security, meaning your bullshit line toeing actually results in you getting spaced by an aggressive security team and you end up doing less overall damage to the round than just low escalation griefing for 45 minutes. It ironically made rounds better than a lot of the worst shit I see on Terry.

“Sustainable results” - I would say because you were doing them in isolation. A set round to go ham. Creating a place which always allows this type of behavior allows a culture to develop; it happened for Manuel, it will happen here. When you create a place where people can be assholes and do what they want, it will attract assholes who want to do whatever they want.

Stickymayhem wrote: I want to prove that's the case. There's no weird self-promoting conspiracy I'm just confident it's a great idea that will have positive knock on effects for the whole community. It's not a containment server, it's the exact opposite. It's a place anyone from any server can go to fuck around for a couple rounds, get bored and go back to their regular rounds with their regular community having worked out some violent tendencies.

... it’s a containment server for behavior we don’t want to see on our normal servers.

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:05 pm**

wesoda25 wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote: I ran low rule rounds in the past and they were extremely fun and successful. I did this dozens of times and always with interesting and sustainable results. The reality of reduced escalations is that while assistants can be shitters, so can security, meaning your bullshit line toeing actually results in you getting spaced by an aggressive security team and you end up doing less overall damage to the round than just low escalation griefing for 45 minutes. It ironically made rounds better than a lot of the worst shit I see on Terry.
“Sustainable results” - I would say because you were doing them in isolation. A set round to go ham. Creating a place which always allows this type of behavior allows a culture to develop; it happened for Manuel, it will happen here. When you create a place where people can be assholes and do what they want, it will attract assholes who want to do whatever they want.
Stickymayhem wrote: I want to prove that's the case. There's no weird self-promoting conspiracy I'm just confident it's a great idea that will have positive knock on effects for the whole community. It's not a containment server, it's the exact opposite. It's a place anyone from any server can go to fuck around for a couple rounds, get bored and go back to their regular rounds with their regular community having worked out some violent tendencies.
... it’s a containment server for behavior we don’t want to see on our normal servers.

So Manual is a containment server for MRP?

The way you're using containment server makes it lose so much meaning it's worthless as a criticism of anything

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:59 pm**

Agux909 wrote:Wasn't the game more like this years ago? You know, with player agency being a predominant factor.

fuck you man, we have never had an anarchy ruleset

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:20 pm**

Worth a try, I'd play it

Posted: **Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:30 pm**

oranges wrote:we should have no place for that kind of playstyle on /tg/ ever.

Didn't someone make an admin complaint about you for making a highlander round?

Hypocrite!!!

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:27 am**

Stickymayhem wrote: I keep bringing Terry up because it ostensibly has the same ruleset and yet the line toeing grief and shittery at all levels makes it chaotic and player interactions unpleasant a lot of the time.

Chaos is a ladder, a ladder to fun. But going low rules is only going to make player interactions more unpleasant.

Stickymayhem wrote:non-antags have manual antag levels of freedom

Wouldn't that mean you could just kill (or hold captive, or otherwise fuck with) anyone at any time? But even with lax escalation you'd still get people abusing their newfound power over other players to make them miserable.

Agux909 wrote:Wasn't the game more like this years ago? You know, with player agency being a predominant factor.

Anytime I see Cobby say "protagonist play" I do want to kill something.

XDTM wrote:There's a possibility that many players will join the server to fuck around, but instead just get consistently outrobusted by the players who specialize in it and just become the sacrificial victims for the fun of the current murderboner. It would kinda defeat the point of being stress relief if it ends up being always the same people getting it.

Yes, it's already like this with murderbone antags. The crew, working hard on their own goals and pursuing their own fun, become cannon fodder for the fun of one admirable piece of shit. So this server will just cater to the most robust or metacliques of the most robust. The people who are new, suck or have bad latency and choose to play there anyway will just consistently serve as victims for these people. Some of them will swallow their pride and leave. But it'll be a shithole where the most callous and aggressive powergamers reign supreme (so HippieStation).

In saying that though, I'm not against a server that I won't have to play on, especially as an experiment with tweaks to make it less like what I've described above. I'd certainly try it, if only to see if my predictions are correct. I just think it will be a toxic shithole. If it serves as a containment server for powergaming shitters then maybe that's okay (but then maybe it'd attract shitters to /tg/ like /pol/ attracted Stormfront and then they'd spill over into the other less robust servers).

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:24 am**

Wouldn't that mean you could just kill (or hold captive, or otherwise fuck with) anyone at any time? But even with lax escalation you'd still get people abusing their newfound power over other players to make them miserable.

I offer two hypothetical scenarios that make my point.

Bob the Assistant plays on Terry
Bob is bored and wants to stir shit up, so he breaks into engineering to steal gloves and tools
An engineer, Jess, catches Bob, but Bob is robust and Jess is hesitant to murder him, so he slips him, takes his ID and sticks him in a locker
Another engineer tries to stop Bob, but Bob has the id and some tools now and gets away
Later Jess finds Bob breaking back in for a space suit or some shit. This time she puts him down with a toolbox, but has to take him to medbay as per the escalation rules.
Bob goes to medbay and returns to reclaim his stolen gear, breaking back in and harassing Jess.
Jess gets frustrated and repels him, calling security.
Security chucklefucks their way into arresting Bob, and gives him ten minutes
Bob is freed, and immediately returns to Engineering with a blood vendetta against Jess for getting him arrested for ten minutes and critting him
Jess is halfway through her autism fort when Bob appears with a flamethrower and burns her.
Bob takes Jess to medbay and now Jess has a blood vendetta against Bob
This escalates until someone reaches the arbitrary point where they can get spaced

Pete the assistant plays on Anarchy server
Pete is bored and wants to stir shit up, so he breaks into engineering to steal gloves and tools
Jess throws his ass in the supermatter, end of conflict
Or
Pete wins, throws jess in the supermatter, end of conflict

Escalation and honestly the rules in general promote these long round long conflicts which people get upset over, as opposed to immediate harsh conseqeunces for shittery. If every time you did dumb shit to ANYONE there was the real risk of being immediately spaced and having no more round participation, I think we'd see less conflict. This was the case for my trials, some of which lasted 8 hours of rounds back in the day. Security will crack greytide skulls so the greytide don't do that line toeing bullshit but instead have to actually be wary of the permanent consequences of their actions.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:00 pm**

Containing griefers into a server where they have to deal with each other like that sounds kinda swell if it weren't for
a) the aforementioned magnet effect
b) plenty of griefers tend to get their kicks off the fact they pissed someone off, and the lack of easy victims means the server wouldn't 'contain' them
c) why should we reward that kind of selfish, annoying, rule-toeing playstyle with a specialized server?

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:32 pm**

oranges wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Wasn't the game more like this years ago? You know, with player agency being a predominant factor.
fuck you man, we have never had an anarchy ruleset

I meant ss13 as a whole, fruit.

Posted: **Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:50 pm**

XDTM wrote:Containing griefers into a server where they have to deal with each other like that sounds kinda swell if it weren't for
a) the aforementioned magnet effect
b) plenty of griefers tend to get their kicks off the fact they pissed someone off, and the lack of easy victims means the server wouldn't 'contain' them
c) why should we reward that kind of selfish, annoying, rule-toeing playstyle with a specialized server?

It's not a containment server
It doesn't affect the rules of other servers
We reward rule-toeing playstyle plenty, this is literally the opposite of rule toeing, there's no rules to toe.

The easy, lazy logical leap so many people are falling into is very disappointing, if you think about your own opinions for literally 30 seconds you'll realise they're nonsensical and contradictory

Just knee jerk reactions honestly, it's not surprising but I know most of you aren't actually this dumb

/tg/Station 13

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