/tg/Station 13

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 50#p587052 established policy stating admins can clean up the library of nsfw art from the gallery, but didn't say anything about punishing the illustrators of the art, and didn't say anything about the private / non-public art galleries.

So, I'm here to ask:

- Can admins warn/eventually ban people for repeatedly making nsfw art in the library?
- Is BORDERLINE nsfw art allowed if it's in the secure art gallery (the non-public gallery - the one in the curator's office)? Or is it up to admin discretion?
- Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section? (What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)
- Can admins step in to warn / eventually ban prolific smut authors?

Personally i'm of the opinion all smut should be banished and removed from the library, as it breaks rule 8 of the server and the only reason it's tolerated is because it's "tradition" to keep WGW (or worse) in the shelves for shitposting. I'm aware admins can already remove art and books if they think they're too bad but I'd like established policy on whether this kinda stuff is warnable or bannable.

As of late it seems to have been getting only worse and I think it should be stopped before it continues to develop, since it's pretty sickening stuff.

Thoughts?

i don't see the consistency in banning erp but allowing the often-extremely-explicit porn books, and removing the adult section is something ive wanted for a while

CENSORISHIP

I just immediately consider the amount of straight up lack of interest I would feel if someone asked me to curate this as it currently is and w/ how large the library / artbook is and how quickly it can grow. It sounds like an unreasonably time intensive nightmare (bless Hugbug being insane enough to give it even the slightest consideration).

Would this be allowing grandfathered material?
What about 'traditional' material?
Would it just be easier to start all over again?

Misdoubtful wrote:I just immediately consider the amount of straight up lack of interest I would feel if someone asked me to curate this as it currently is and w/ how large the library / artbook is and how quickly it can grow. It sounds like an unreasonably time intensive nightmare.

Would this be allowing grandfathered material?
What about 'traditional' material?
Would it just be easier to start all over again?

There is so little of quality in there that starting over wouldn't be much of a loss. But I feel like it would be pretty easy to just slowly purge it over time and just refuse new NSFW shit

I'm super confused as to how this is an actual problem
someone shitposting wgw or any smut over comms means the entire crew and AI gets to play find the free antag beating and generally I haven't seen people dislike that happening

if someone's made themselves particularly impervious to the crew turning them into burgers it's always been free ground from what I've seen as a player for admins to press buttons on em too.
Writing a book is even less intrusive as you can literally avoid printing it and ever reading it if you don't want to read it - if you read it over comms it's the same as reading wgw

I don't want to say "who cares" because obviously this was started by someone who does, but why do you care?
if they're spamming over comms or harassing people with this it's already covered by other rules, iirc, and I've heard at least one other player say something to the effects of having to wait a round before reading a wgw-themed song over comms (before getting killed by a mob) so it's not like other staff can't enforce not spamming wgw or doing it as a often-repeated gimmick.



I personally don't care if it's removed as the only use I ever have for the adult section of the books or nsfw art is printing out a few choice books, gift-wrapping them, and gifting them to sec officers once in a blue moon when they really piss me off

mrmelbert wrote:https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 50#p587052 established policy stating admins can clean up the library of nsfw art from the gallery, but didn't say anything about punishing the illustrators of the art, and didn't say anything about the private / non-public art galleries.

So, I'm here to ask:

- Can admins warn/eventually ban people for repeatedly making nsfw art in the library?
- Is BORDERLINE nsfw art allowed if it's in the secure art gallery (the non-public gallery - the one in the curator's office)? Or is it up to admin discretion?
- Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section? (What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)
- Can admins step in to warn / eventually ban prolific smut authors?

Personally i'm of the opinion all smut should be banished and removed from the library, as it breaks rule 8 of the server and the only reason it's tolerated is because it's "tradition" to keep WGW (or worse) in the shelves for shitposting. I'm aware admins can already remove art and books if they think they're too bad but I'd like established policy on whether this kinda stuff is warnable or bannable.

As of late it seems to have been getting only worse and I think it should be stopped before it continues to develop, since it's pretty sickening stuff.

Thoughts?

This is an 18+ server sweetie maybe don’t be such a fucking prude

not worth our time to moderate or even code a solution to because it is not an issue

change my mind by convincing me that it is an issue, as you have failed to do in your OP

Banning certain types of books or paintings doesn't solve the underlying problem that players have no in-game quality control mechanics If books/paintings could be rated and searched using modern UI so mostly good stuff showed up randomly in-game, then there would be no issue.

legality wrote:

mrmelbert wrote:https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 50#p587052 established policy stating admins can clean up the library of nsfw art from the gallery, but didn't say anything about punishing the illustrators of the art, and didn't say anything about the private / non-public art galleries.

So, I'm here to ask:

- Can admins warn/eventually ban people for repeatedly making nsfw art in the library?
- Is BORDERLINE nsfw art allowed if it's in the secure art gallery (the non-public gallery - the one in the curator's office)? Or is it up to admin discretion?
- Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section? (What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)
- Can admins step in to warn / eventually ban prolific smut authors?

Personally i'm of the opinion all smut should be banished and removed from the library, as it breaks rule 8 of the server and the only reason it's tolerated is because it's "tradition" to keep WGW (or worse) in the shelves for shitposting. I'm aware admins can already remove art and books if they think they're too bad but I'd like established policy on whether this kinda stuff is warnable or bannable.

As of late it seems to have been getting only worse and I think it should be stopped before it continues to develop, since it's pretty sickening stuff.

Thoughts?

This is an 18+ server sweetie maybe don’t be such a fucking prude

we also have a rule saying "Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed."

That sounds like a lot of work for functionally 0 gain, plus the loss of occasionally having "book clubs" gather up in the library to read and make fun of random badly-written smut.

have they forgotten so soon



wgw is /tg/station culture and now SOULLESS zoomers want to remove it

it has rarely if ever been an issue because it doesn't take a chr 10 build to tell the difference between humour derived from the involuntary exposure to ironic erotica in a group setting and sexually harassing people in a video game

zoomers have all but purged the reading of wgw from the game already

also can the gay leftists please reveal their agendas because puritanism coming from our side is like a christian soccer mom overreacting to south park in 2000

mrmelbert wrote:- Can admins warn/eventually ban people for repeatedly making nsfw art in the library?
- Is BORDERLINE nsfw art allowed if it's in the secure art gallery (the non-public gallery - the one in the curator's office)? Or is it up to admin discretion?
- Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section? (What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)
- Can admins step in to warn / eventually ban prolific smut authors?

- no
- all breasts and vaginas should be allowed (although it would be better with a voting system that purges shit and the character name IC and ckey OOC so they don't get too carried away)
- yes the purpose is to house shitposting
- god no, unless the point is to harass another player or another player takes exception to the depiction of their character in a book it should all be fine, nobody uses the library anyway and the UI makes it impossible to find anything nowadays anyway

The discussion was brought up today because we were discussing a ticket that eventually lead to the discussion of large amount of smut books written with player characters, be it consenting or not.

Frequency of a policy is fairly irrelevant since the point of policy is to have a guideline on what to do when these odd situations come in, it literally makes 0 sense to bring up the frequency of the issue unless youre going to argue that it happens so infrequently it should be allowed.

1.

NoxVS wrote: we also have a rule saying "Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed."

And the way it's been interpreted for the past 6 years is as a ban on live ERP, not as a ban on everything sexual or pornographic. Just saying "but it's against the rules" isn't valid when it clearly isn't against any way rule 8's ever been applied. If you want to change how we interpret the rules, give an actual argument about why the new interpretation would be better for the game.

2.
If you don't like the adult books just don't click on them, bro. There's a difference between seeing porn in an image or on comms and seeing it in a book you have to deliberately pick up and open to read.

3.
The idea that this high-tech top-secret research station has a dedicated area for shittily written internet porn is funny as fuck, remove it and you remove SOUL

another example of how far rule 8 has been twisted

Writing horny shit with another player's character without that player's consent is already covered by "no creepy stuff" and "don't be a dick," no?

writing erotic with a player consenting should also not be ok because it is straight up erotic too though, its no different than efucking for the purpose of rule 8.

Cobby wrote:writing erotic with a player consenting should also not be ok because it is straight up erotic too though, its no different than efucking for the purpose of rule 8.

No it isn't.

You have to go out of your way looking for badly written books. ERPing pisses off everyone who has to see it including observers.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:

Cobby wrote:writing erotic with a player consenting should also not be ok because it is straight up erotic too though, its no different than efucking for the purpose of rule 8.

No it isn't.

You have to go out of your way looking for badly written books. ERPing pisses off everyone who has to see it including observers.

Actually it is though per rule 8, which say no erotic behavior (it mentions nothing about easily observable erotic behavior and I don’t think that was the spirit either).

You can argue that it could be worded better, but you can’t argue that the current rule’s wording doesn’t beg the question why player character erotica is cool when the rule is worded the way it is.

Some of it isn’t even like funny it’s just wattpad fanfics of OCs with all of the cringe brought with it.

PKPenguin321 wrote:not worth our time to moderate or even code a solution to because it is not an issue

change my mind by convincing me that it is an issue, as you have failed to do in your OP

Read the most recent ones, one had incest, please save us

If you're having issues with erp spilling over into books isn't that the result of looser restrictions on IC relationships/"cuddling" and the culture that builds up around that?

Just remove cat "people" and all of this will just end.

TheFinalPotato wrote:If you're having issues with erp spilling over into books isn't that the result of looser restrictions on IC relationships/"cuddling" and the culture that builds up around that?

Headpats and kissing are emotes. Coders brought this corruption onto the server.

PKPenguin321 wrote:not worth our time to moderate or even code a solution to because it is not an issue

change my mind by convincing me that it is an issue, as you have failed to do in your OP

There's an argument to be made that giving players a free outlet for rule breaking material is a very bad idea for a variety of reasons (everyone's focused on rule 8 but rule 1, 3 and especially 11 also apply) and is ripe for all kinds of abuse.

It also devalues the feature itself as it slowly but surely gets flooded with garbage (see the library, and soon to be the art gallery).

A distinction must be made that while generally library content is out of the way and needs to be seeked out manually (generally), the art gallery is very much in your face whether you want it or not.
I made the private collection specifically because I knew it was inevitable that people would start pushing boundaries and it was my attempt to keep this kind of art as out of the way as possible while also helping the administration side: if something is borderline it should be put in the private collection and everything in the public collections can be more strictly moderated.
This all assumed the administration would actually help with keeping the gallery clean and punish abuse which I guess was pretty optimistic of me. As it stands I think a year or two from now I'm going to regret the existence of the art gallery as it's going to be filled with dicks and swastikas.

If it isn't clear I'll also state the obvious that if you don't start banning people for breaking the rules they'll just keep doing it

legality wrote:This is an 18+ server sweetie maybe don’t be such a fucking prude

PKPenguin321 wrote:not worth our time to moderate or even code a solution to because it is not an issue

change my mind by convincing me that it is an issue, as you have failed to do in your OP

I'm not trying to make a "porn bad" argument but I'd just like clarification on where the policy stands (as is the point of policy threads).

Namely, if we ban people for typefucking in dorms 4, why don't we ban people for writing a book about how they typefucked in dorms 4? I know this question has plausible answers (like, "library books are hidden in the database") but ultimately they're pretty much the same thing, and I'd just appreciate some guidance from the headmins on how to handle the subject.

Because ERP is live and people can actively encounter it by mistake and feel uncomfortable. Books you have to find, open, and then read, by which point if you don't know what you're getting then you're being intentionally dense.

technokek wrote:Just remove cat "people" and all of this will just end.

This is a great point I think.

just make it so you can't write an adult book about another player's character without their consent and if you do anyway they can complain if they find out about it and get you banned

i don't think it's fair to equate it with erp and all the drama that that brings

erp was always funny and lead to some great moments as players and admins fucked with it

but inevitably the logs hang around forever and people circulate them and use them to shame and demean the participants

i don't think adult fanfiction of somebody's oc that most people won't know exists and most people who do will only look at if it's funny is the same thing

FYI--If you want to only ban a subset of the books, you're going to want to just ban all books involving player characters at all. Banning only the ones without consent is a nice idea, but it necessitates that, if we see a book like that, we need to go find to see if both players consented, which is just going to lead to nothing happening or all of them getting removed (which is why you'd need to just block all of them).

cacogen wrote:just make it so you can't write an adult book about another player's character without their consent and if you do anyway they can complain if they find out about it and get you banned

How about we just ban staticnames in general. Mandatory random names for all. Also solves the problem of metagangs. It's win-win all around.

haha. what have I done?

Of course it should not be banned.

One of the big advantages to developing a non-commercial game is that we DON'T have create a sanitized PG13 product in order to appease a gaggle of comstockians.

The common sense approach would be that every man decides for themselves if they want to print and read a funny gross book. But this is not acceptable to a lot of people.

If this type of bloodless puritan decides to eat grey slop for dinner each night, he is going to insist everyone of his neighbors is served a bowl that is equally bland and textureless.


You are a grown ass man, you should be able to see a 3px titty in a 24px painting without fainting.

Cmon bruh.

Jaredfogle wrote:Banning only the ones without consent is a nice idea, but it necessitates that, if we see a book like that, we need to go find to see if both players consented, which is just going to lead to nothing happening or all of them getting removed (which is why you'd need to just block all of them).

or you could just wait until it became an issue and someone complained

Farquaar wrote:

cacogen wrote:just make it so you can't write an adult book about another player's character without their consent and if you do anyway they can complain if they find out about it and get you banned

How about we just ban staticnames in general. Mandatory random names for all. Also solves the problem of metagangs. It's win-win all around.

what a great idea

Kryson wrote:Of course it should not be banned.

One of the big advantages to developing a non-commercial game is that we DON'T have create a sanitized PG13 product in order to appease a gaggle of comstockians.

The common sense approach would be that every man decides for themselves if they want to print and read a funny gross book. But this is not acceptable to a lot of people.

If this type of bloodless puritan decides to eat grey slop for dinner each night, he is going to insist everyone of his neighbors is served a bowl that is equally bland and textureless.


You are a grown ass man, you should be able to see a 3px titty in a 24px painting without fainting.

Cmon bruh.

based post upvote

If you are going to argue that some level of eroticism should be allowed thats a separate discussion imo since thats touching rule 8, not asking for a proper enforcement of the current rule.

The discussion here is more along the lines of in light of rule 8 why do these books (more specifically pertaining to actual player characters, I wouldnt consider LXM or WGW the same) get a pass. The exception is not really explained anywhere in the rules so it should be. If there are other items that are erotic in nature but we dont want to enforce them per rule 8, rule 8 should be changed so people understand what the actual purpose of the rule is (as it is right now id assume its to remove any remote horny from the game, as we do have plenty of sister communities that are built more around that).

The common sense point in my opinion is that you dont write erotica or do any erotic things to or about players in a game where there is a rule specifically banning eroticism. Anything else would suggest the overarching rule needs to be changed which no one has yet to actually put traction on.

GreenKnight2903 wrote:haha. what have I done?

What were you expecting putting badly-written ERP logs of yourself with other players in the library?
Granted, banning smut over this is just overreaching and such but that's the politicking of /tg/ adminbus for you.

just ban the people you don't like for god's sake

why dont we just remove this already so we can take off the server's age restriction

Critawakets wrote:why dont we just remove this already so we can take off the server's age restriction

That isnt how it works lol

Critawakets wrote:why dont we just remove this already so we can take off the server's age restriction

I don't think I'd want to have to deal with even more immature people than I already have to deal with in med

Hey, chief idiot here, I say we remove books entirely and ban every curator player so they can stop reading off their third printed copy of "Lizard X Removed Shadowperson Volume 55" while i'm trying to get wood for sandals

Isn't the point of rule 8 to prevent unwilling people from seeing sex shit? If you pick up and read "Lizard Bangbros 8" you can't exactly claim that you weren't willing to see it.

ardentarclight wrote:Isn't the point of rule 8 to prevent unwilling people from seeing sex shit? If you pick up and read "Lizard Bangbros 8" you can't exactly claim that you weren't willing to see it.

You're assuming here that everything is clearly labelled and categorized correctly.

My problem with it is that no one is suggesting to change the rule if that’s actually the point (I don’t think it is).

When I read “erotic/creepy behavior isn’t allowed”, I assume the point of the rule is to not allow erotic or creepy content. I don’t see where the “only SOME erotic behavior is not ok but if it is opt in then it’s totally fine” interpretation comes in.

In any rate it should be clear to both admins and players where the line in the sand is for okay erotic behaviors if it is or isn’t supposed to be a blanket ban like the rule implies.

I think books like "The Syndicate Sex Borg" part 1-3 contribute immensely to the gameplay.


Also I was bwoinked for saying " law 2 love me" to a Borg once after he kept saying he hates me.

Cobby wrote:If you are going to argue that some level of eroticism should be allowed thats a separate discussion imo since thats touching rule 8, not asking for a proper enforcement of the current rule.

The discussion here is more along the lines of in light of rule 8 why do these books (more specifically pertaining to actual player characters, I wouldnt consider LXM or WGW the same) get a pass.

mrmelbert wrote: - Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section?(What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules wrote:8. Erotic/creepy stuff is not allowed.
No form of erotic roleplay is allowed on the servers, including things that could be construed as sexual by unwilling participants.

Seems like there's confusion about the purpose of Rule 8. What does it mean by "stuff"? Is it there to ban text and images, or enforce behaviour? To me, it's there to prevent ERP (because of the problems it's created in the past) and sexual harassment. I don't see how humourous books with sexual subject matter like WGW or books that are intended to be arousing (even if they feature player characters, provided the players don't mind) factor into it. It's about how these things are presented to players. Which depends on the situation.

good grief

Mickyan wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:not worth our time to moderate or even code a solution to because it is not an issue

change my mind by convincing me that it is an issue, as you have failed to do in your OP

There's an argument to be made that giving players a free outlet for rule breaking material is a very bad idea for a variety of reasons (everyone's focused on rule 8 but rule 1, 3 and especially 11 also apply) and is ripe for all kinds of abuse.

It also devalues the feature itself as it slowly but surely gets flooded with garbage (see the library, and soon to be the art gallery).

A distinction must be made that while generally library content is out of the way and needs to be seeked out manually (generally), the art gallery is very much in your face whether you want it or not.
I made the private collection specifically because I knew it was inevitable that people would start pushing boundaries and it was my attempt to keep this kind of art as out of the way as possible while also helping the administration side: if something is borderline it should be put in the private collection and everything in the public collections can be more strictly moderated.
This all assumed the administration would actually help with keeping the gallery clean and punish abuse which I guess was pretty optimistic of me. As it stands I think a year or two from now I'm going to regret the existence of the art gallery as it's going to be filled with dicks and swastikas.

point taken. in the interest of maintaining a certain level of quality in the art gallery i would not mind deleting dicks and swastikas as i see them, or even having a system for voting those out of existence getting coded in.

still not really sold on library books, you have to go so out of your way that it never comes up + it was never really that high quality to begin with + at least some of the smut there can be funny, but i'll agree with you on the art gallery.

cacogen wrote: Seems like there's confusion about the purpose of Rule 8. What does it mean by "stuff"? Is it there to ban text and images, or enforce behaviour? To me, it's there to prevent ERP (because of the problems it's created in the past) and sexual harassment. I don't see how humourous books with sexual subject matter like WGW or books that are intended to be arousing (even if they feature player characters, provided the players don't mind) factor into it. It's about how these things are presented to players. Which depends on the situation.

My point is if people want to add their weird sex book to the archive or pixel pornography to the curator's private gallery or read WGW over Common, who does it hurt? If someone's depicting other people's characters and they aren't okay with it or otherwise using these things to harass someone then do something about that.