/tg/Station 13

In reference to https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29946 I am not a fan of the implication (or maybe they didn’t misspeak) that the tram is unmalleable regardless of context. Since I do not think the linked thread actually fits the scenario which I’m speaking about here (if it does feel free to correct), please don’t turn this into a more official peanut posting gallery. This is specifically about the ruling on that thread, not the situation presented in the thread.

If engineering collective wants to remove the tram and replace the space with more rooms or something that should be perfectly fine for instance. If they want to just replace it with catwalks that should also be fine. If they want to just outright not use the tram and remove it that should also be ok. The important piece is that the department, particularly the CE and/or captain, should be in agreement with the notion.

This is completely different than one guy deciding he doesnt like the tram and griefs it in whatever form he thinks will let him get away with it. To be clear though it’s only grief because he’s making the existing path unusable or highly dangerous and without consulting individuals who manage the design of the station IC, which is a distinct difference.

Again maybe I’m misreading but making it so that space (which is a lot might I add) be untouchable unless you’re an antag REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT OR CONSENT WITH THE CREW seems quite frankly very silly. Rulings like that just tack on to why people dislike the map. No other map bars renovations of maint/medical/meeting rooms/etc. when they are just as much if not more integral to a station than a tram which is dangerous and taking up an obscene amount of space, not even considering it’s (in)efficiency.

No I do not want to discuss ACTUAL tram grief I will press reply then quote this line if you go there. It’s not funny and you deserve punishment for it if you’re not an antag. This is specifically for crew (at least engineering)-consenting tram removal and/or renovating the area where ICly you have full justification but for some reason OOCly you’re barred from doing so.

Basically, admins should remove themselves from tram editing if and only if engineering approves and it’s done properly (exploding people because you didn’t warn them you’re removing the tram puts you in the wrong). The gimmick of a map does not supersede player agency so long as the approach is proper.

If a healthy amount of people consent and it's not just some random that wants tram to go bye bye then cool. There is a purpose and justification by multiple people then.

It's a joint effort by the station at that point and nine times out of ten those joint efforts end up being fun and memorable.

Same as turning cargo into a new sm chamber or whatever else.

What if the captain gives you permission for it and noone complains?

But yeah I agree with most of the things in your post Cobby. I also think "X is the central gimmick of the map so any attempt to remove it is forbidden and punished regardless of the context" is incredibly short-sighted and goes against the foundations of the sandbox and player agency within the game.

maybe people are just finally tired of the map

Kendrickorium wrote:maybe people are just finally tired of the map

How many people have to be tired of the map before you have implied permission to destroy the tram? 10%? 50%? 75%?

edit: spelling

Being tired of the map and wanting to do a big project on the map and have fun are two different things. One is solved by cryoing/ssding/server hopping, the other by getting people involved for something.

If no one wanted to play the map why would they vote for it? I'm not about to assume they vote for it out of spite so they can willfully have a bad time. No one really actually wants to shoot themselves in the foot for fun. If they for some bizarre reason wanted to I'd be hard pressed to ever have sympathy for them when they complain about it.

It all boils down to attitudes, and those willing the make the most of something and put the effort into making things fun instead of lamenting are always going to succeed. Sometimes you lose in this game, sometimes that means losing a map vote ???

Agux909 wrote:What if the captain gives you permission for it and noone complains?

But yeah I agree with most of the things in your post Cobby. I also think "X is the central gimmick of the map so any attempt to remove it is forbidden and punished regardless of the context" is incredibly short-sighted and goes against the foundations of the sandbox and player agency within the game.

I think it's very important to consider that the ruling said that you can't dismantle the tram for arbitrary reasons or for safety reasons. It doesn't say you can't do it ever, it just implies that you need to have a serious reason or goal behind it.

The player agency is still here it just can't be capricious.

The problem is that the gimmick portion of the gimmick map is less malleable than the rest of the map.

You don’t need rhyme or reason to change pieces of any other department, but if you touch the tram you HAVE to be doing this sweeping renovation to it. If I just think the tram is ineffective compared to a longer bridge, I should be able to make that change so long as I get CE/Captain’s permission. The same would be true if I wanted to start tearing down walls in medbay, I would need the CMO or captain to be cool with it.

Protecting the gimmick like this to where you can’t even do it with proper ic backing will just make people hate the map.

Can we get stats on people who vote tram then actually play it afterwards? We know admins aren’t playing it, wonder if they’re voting so they can get a break since they know other admins will observe lol.

Cobby wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:19 pm Can we get stats on people who vote tram then actually play it afterwards? We know admins aren’t playing it, wonder if they’re voting so they can get a break since they know other admins will observe lol.

It'd be neat to see the roundstart logout report tracking people that voted for the current map but didn't actually ready up.

We agree with

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:56 pm ...it's very important to consider that the ruling said that you can't dismantle the tram for arbitrary reasons or for safety reasons. It doesn't say you can't do it ever, it just implies that you need to have a serious reason or goal behind it.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes