/tg/Station 13

Personally I want it banned. I've been heavily involved on bagil lately which despite the recent pop influx is and has been a lowpop server. On lowpop players aren't equipped nor want to deal with murderboners. It doesn't even bring with it the fun that comes with med to high pop because there is no challenge due to minimal resistance. Specifically on bagil we have a ton of new players and it's just incredibly shitty to watch.

Short of a ban I'd at least like the past ruling updated: viewtopic.php?p=576940#p576940

In general we’d ask admins to use their tools to speed the round along in isolated cases. However, if a player is repeatedly ruining rounds by murderboning on lowpop having a chat with them and a note is fine.
If it continues bans may come into effect.

It only allows notes and talking tos if its a pattern, but that doesn't make sense because without documenting it we can't establish a pattern.

it seems like the only nuance here is that the ruling was made with the idea that warnings should not include notes which doesnt make sense to begin with so on that premise alone I think it's worth clarifying

korol did it and it killed pop, please don't low pop murderbone(UNLESS FUNNY CLOWN CAR)

Low pop murderbone is one of the most shitty things you can do, i have seen alot of "interns" that try to learn basic controls there, only to get killed by some guy who broke into armory to arm themselves with every weapon available AND had ordered more guns from cargo

On some days it was so bad we had a murderboner every round and it killed pop entirely for the night

If a ruling is made on this it should be explicit what's considered lowpop or not (<30?). Probably also good to define what murderboning would be. Killing everyone indiscriminately? Just the cap and the several witnesses? Etc.

The issue is less that it's lowpop and more that there's a high likelihood there's no sec and thus no one with weapons to fight the murderbone.
On the other hand the entire traitor kit revolves around murder and station-grief, so aside from some gimmick there might not be much to do. Traitors that do nothing leads to 0 conflict in the round and makes for a very boring 2 hour greenshift (something which often makes lowpop shifts boring for people).

Honestly in general how is this not just ruining the round for everyone else and just breeding an unhealthy environment?

Really, seriously.

I'm not interested in the semantics of this in the slightest.

Nor do I care if there is a pattern to someone doing this or not. If someone willfully ruins a round for literally everyone else, that is beyond my ability to condone, and I'm more than willing to put them in the dumpster.

Condoning it as a 'because they can' or 'because it doesn't have 800 supporting documents' regardless of the damage it causes / has already done is how it becomes a problem that will have to be solved reactively instead of proactively -- it'll become just another fire to have to put out when everyone dips from the server, yet again.

If the only reason someone is playing antag or ss13 overall is to have an experience where their fun is the only priority like it's a single player experience, I kindly invite them to sit on an ejection seat and get launched into space where they can contemplate the meaning of empathy.

No one hops on this game with the intention of joining a mass low pop grave, they'll just leave and go to another server where they will get to have fun. Player disconnects and observer retention are valuable statistics worth considering here, and if this was a serious enough problem then, then why hasn't something happened to prevent it now? How can the server be expected to gain traction if it just gets put on repeat?

Targeting continual cases by people specifically in an environment where 8 different people can still do it is still ruining 8 seperate rounds (which could last for hours overall), regardless of whether or not there is a pattern to it. I have a hard time seeing the solution in place currently being effective.

In fact it might end up just like this in practice:

Ryusenshu wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:29 pm Low pop murderbone is one of the most shitty things you can do, i have seen alot of "interns" that try to learn basic controls there, only to get killed by some guy who broke into armory to arm themselves with every weapon available AND had ordered more guns from cargo

On some days it was so bad we had a murderboner every round and it killed pop entirely for the night

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:01 am Personally I want it banned. I've been heavily involved on bagil lately which despite the recent pop influx is and has been a lowpop server. On lowpop players aren't equipped nor want to deal with murderboners. It doesn't even bring with it the fun that comes with med to high pop because there is no challenge due to minimal resistance. Specifically on bagil we have a ton of new players and it's just incredibly shitty to watch.

Short of a ban I'd at least like the past ruling updated: viewtopic.php?p=576940#p576940

In general we’d ask admins to use their tools to speed the round along in isolated cases. However, if a player is repeatedly ruining rounds by murderboning on lowpop having a chat with them and a note is fine.
If it continues bans may come into effect.

It only allows notes and talking tos if its a pattern, but that doesn't make sense because without documenting it we can't establish a pattern.

The previous ruling states clearly that bans may come into effect if people continue to do it after being told to knock it off

Tell them to knock it off and ban them if they refuse to stop, not sure why this ruling needs updating honestly, the previous one seems clear enough, if it's killing the population of a server, that's worthy enough to be stopped

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:31 pm If someone willfully ruins a round for literally everyone else, that is beyond my ability to condone, and I'm more than willing to put them in the dumpster.

In that case we should make murderboning a notable offense outright. What does it matter if it's lowpop or not? 50, 60, 70pop rounds get decimated by lone antags/bombers all the time, ruining everyone's fun but the individual antag.

But that would be nonsensical, because you aren't supposed to have the shift go your way every round. Sometimes you just explode randomly and get gibbed FNR. That's part of the chaos of LRP that makes it fun. On <30pop shifts I agree it's shitty, but not because it ruins everyone's round - it's because it's easy to ruin everyone's round.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:16 pm

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:31 pm If someone willfully ruins a round for literally everyone else, that is beyond my ability to condone, and I'm more than willing to put them in the dumpster.

In that case we should make murderboning a notable offense outright. What does it matter if it's lowpop or not? 50, 60, 70pop rounds get decimated by lone antags/bombers all the time, ruining everyone's fun but the individual antag.

But that would be nonsensical, because you aren't supposed to have the shift go your way every round. Sometimes you just explode randomly and get gibbed FNR. That's part of the chaos of LRP that makes it fun. On <30pop shifts I agree it's shitty, but not because it ruins everyone's round - it's because it's easy to ruin everyone's round.

That is the exact proposal being made by the op here, yes. Making low pop murderbone in the very least outright notable if not banning it altogether.

We have 100+ admins. As with all things, documentation is essential in establishing patterns of wrongdoing - the same player could rack up countless warnings before eventually someone realizes others have already talked to them. The ruling allows for notes only if it is done repeatedly, this is stupid and makes enforcement hilariously inefficient.

Lowpop murderbone fucking sucks everywhere, but as I said I specifically hate to see it on bagil. It’s no secret that the server was practically dead for a long time, and thankfully as of late it’s seen a wave of new faces. We’ve been working very hard to create a more healthy and friendly environment thats welcoming to anyone. Nothing sabotages our efforts more than allowing players to just massacre a bunch of players who are either sub 50 hours, or just want to do their thing. This is a personal argument with personal investment but how anyone can look at lowpop murderbone and not recognize it as just purely dickish and shitty is beyond me.

I want it bannable, but as with all things I would never start with bans if the offender didn’t have a history or wasn’t aware of the rule. As of now the specific wording of the prior ruling severely limits how I can approach and deal with lowpop murderbone and I’d like it changed.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:25 pm We’ve been working very hard to create a more healthy and friendly environment thats welcoming to anyone. Nothing sabotages our efforts more than allowing players to just massacre a bunch of players who are either sub 50 hours, or just want to do their thing. This is a personal argument with personal investment but how anyone can look at lowpop murderbone and not recognize it as just purely dickish and shitty is beyond me.

This is without a doubt the most important thing in this thread and I feel it will continue to be. This is a personal investment from not just Wesoda but other people on bagil doing their best to create a healthy bagil.

People can toss 100 different versions of semantics out in this thread but it won't matter much if the server becomes unhealthy and dies once again.

If anything this is a plea for things to be better, and I truly, sincerely hope people can rally behind that.

Just use the expirable note tool. Give them a note which expires in say, six months about the low pop murderboning, if they do it again in that time period then further punishments and warnings can occur and if it happens outside that six month period then I'd hardly consider it a pattern of low pop murderboning.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:31 pm and if this was a serious enough problem then, then why hasn't something happened to prevent it now? How can the server be expected to gain traction if it just gets put on repeat?

It's not one.
There are plenty of servers that cater to environments where you aren't subjected to potentially being grabbed and yeeted into space by an antag just for crossing his path. /tg/ has several servers you can pick from if you do get yeeted and don't feel like watching, or being a ghost role. There's no need to become yet another server where you get bwoinked immediately for shoving a kid into a locker as a bad guy.

terranaut wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:01 pm

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:31 pm and if this was a serious enough problem then, then why hasn't something happened to prevent it now? How can the server be expected to gain traction if it just gets put on repeat?

It's not one.
There are plenty of servers that cater to environments where you aren't subjected to potentially being grabbed and yeeted into space by an antag just for crossing his path. /tg/ has several servers you can pick from if you do get yeeted and don't feel like watching, or being a ghost role. There's no need to become yet another server where you get bwoinked immediately for shoving a kid into a locker as a bad guy.

Except this isn't even the problem being described. The problem described is an empty server because no one wants to go on it just to get killed for the funny by one of the other 10 people on, 6 of which are probably already dead. So do you have something to say regarding the issues raised by the thread starters posts?

Unless you don't see an issue with the server becoming a ghost town again?

The answer to lowpop murderbone is not, and never will be, "just play on another server".
There are two issues to address
First issue is people trying to get their K/D ratios up on a server population that is almost never prepared for it (little to no sec, people spaced across) because the weapons that are best for murderbone (desword, sleeping carp, emagged borgs with no AI, subverted AI) are specifically countered by multiple people attacking the murderboner at the same time.
Second issue is that unless you have a hijack objective that requires as little people as possible, there is no reason to go off on a murderbone without prior justification and warning.
So the people who regularly go off on murderbones on lowpop, (and to an extent, midpop) basically do it because it's fun for them.

Unless you don't see an issue with the server becoming a ghost town again?

Tbf I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration, but I certainly don’t think it’s helping with pop and culture. I’ve always disliked lowpop murderboning and my experience on Bagil as of late has only amplified my this. I think all servers would benefit from this.

I think terras post does kinda take the thread off in a weird direction though. Seems more targeted against murderbone in general than just lowpop which is my only grievance in this thread.

Here's my take, as one of the people that have consistently been on bagil.

If your murdering the crew, you better be calling the shuttle as soon as possible.

As an administrator, you've got better options to handle murderbone than saying tsk tsk this is in the rule, there are 12 crewmembers and you've killed 5 of them, that's murderbone don't you dare do it again. It's an administrative and rules headache you can deal with by just inserting FUN into the round. Send in some interns to replace the players if you don't think they deserve to be hunted down. Sent in an ERT if they do. Getting hunted down a few times will drive the message "murder bad" better than bwoinkig.

As a player the first time you get that note/warning the obvious response is "okay well I'll just go play on the highpop server then".

Admins aren’t always online, if I were I would want to use IC measures to keep the round from stagnating and OOC measures to ensure it didn’t become a problem. The event which prompted me to make this was a traitor purchasing a revolver and his grace on ~16 pop, before attempting to murderbone. As with anything admins would be able to use their discretion and invoke the secret rule where necessary.

Murderbone is still a nebulous term and I'd rather not see it introduced into the LRP ruleset. It shouldn't even be in the MRP ruleset.

This might sound experimental, maybe forced, but as it was said, admins aren't always online and the common goal here seems to be to take advantage of this sudden pop surge to revive Bagil and allow it to cultivate a new population in a healthy way.

So, just an idea, isn't it possible to just change the config in bagil so it's always a greenshift under a certain pop? (<20, <30, idk). This doesn't need to be permanent, of course, but I think it could help the current health of the server and the efforts from the people invested on making bagil great again.

Personally not interested, antag is fun and I could easily see it having the inverse effect on pop. If the playerbase wanted it then maybe but I kinda doubt a majority of them would.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:55 am This might sound experimental, maybe forced, but as it was said, admins aren't always online and the common goal here seems to be to take advantage of this sudden pop surge to revive Bagil and allow it to cultivate a new population in a healthy way.

So, just an idea, isn't it possible to just change the config in bagil so it's always a greenshift under a certain pop? (<20, <30, idk). This doesn't need to be permanent, of course, but I think it could help the current health of the server and the efforts from the people invested on making bagil great again.

This seems like a really high stakes trade off, almost like a punishment to the server. Even if that's not the intent.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:42 pm

Unless you don't see an issue with the server becoming a ghost town again?

Tbf I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration, but I certainly don’t think it’s helping with pop and culture. I’ve always disliked lowpop murderboning and my experience on Bagil as of late has only amplified my this. I think all servers would benefit from this.

I think terras post does kinda take the thread off in a weird direction though. Seems more targeted against murderbone in general than just lowpop which is my only grievance in this thread.

I would have been better suited to specify that when low pop boning does happen people will just go someplace else, thus creating a ghost town. It doesn't take much of a swing for all that pop during low pop to just, go. Its not exactly permanent but it sure is defeating and counterproductive.

Ah, my bad.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:14 am Murderbone is still a nebulous term and I'd rather not see it introduced into the LRP ruleset. It shouldn't even be in the MRP ruleset.

If you murderbone when your objectives are to steal slime extract and plasma on MRP, then there's a major problem with how you define MRP to begin with.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:02 am

Farquaar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:14 am Murderbone is still a nebulous term and I'd rather not see it introduced into the LRP ruleset. It shouldn't even be in the MRP ruleset.

If you murderbone when your objectives are to steal slime extract and plasma on MRP, then there's a major problem with how you define MRP to begin with.

Your reply is a complete non-sequitur.

The problem I have with expiring notes is that you can play 4 or more hours a day, every day, get a note that expires in 6 months, and do that same thing again 5 months later despite having played 600 hours of getting no notes and get beaned as a "repeat offender" despite having played hundreds of rounds with no issue.

Then you can have some dude that plays 2 hours a week do the exact same thing and do it again a mere 48 hours of playtime later and get away with just another note because his previous one expired over 6 months ago. Clearly he's improving as a player, despite the fact he committed the same offense at every single opportunity he had to do so.

Notes should really have a play time condition either in addition to or instead of the real time condition for expiration.

That's the real problem most people have with "notes as a punishment" because that punishment is more harsh the more you play.
That's the issue people have with "don't do it too often" offenses because don't do it often is defined as an amount of real time which very easily converts into a period of playtime that is excessively long.

Edit: I'm like 90% certain notes already show the amount of playtime you have since you've gotten the note but I'm not sure that it's really changed much and that value should also be used for expiration IMO

It probably won't matter if it's against the rules because (at least Sybil-wise) it mostly happens at like 3 AM and no admemes are on to apply the rules anyway, so people can do whatever they want

I don't think it's "nebulous" at all; I think it's very easy to tell at a glance when Murderbone has happened because a shitload of people are dead, it's usually unrelated to objectives, and more often than not it starts with someone arming up and initiating a deathmatch with the entire station before they've been found out as an antag.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:30 am It probably won't matter if it's against the rules because (at least Sybil-wise) it mostly happens at like 3 AM and no admemes are on to apply the rules anyway, so people can do whatever they want

I don't think it's "nebulous" at all; I think it's very easy to tell at a glance when Murderbone has happened because a shitload of people are dead, it's usually unrelated to objectives, and more often than not it starts with someone arming up and initiating a deathmatch with the entire station before they've been found out as an antag.

bagil we are talking about bagil not soybil

admins are already within their power to ban for lowpop murderbone, see asher clarkes ban. don't need to add more rules for it.

Also: see rule 1. Please use it.

imsxz wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:41 pm admins are already within their power to ban for lowpop murderbone, see asher clarkes ban. don't need to add more rules for it.

Also: see rule 1. Please use it.

more like rule 0

i went on bagil to oversee my testmerge and lowpop murderbone happened, it SUCKS

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:30 am It probably won't matter if it's against the rules because (at least Sybil-wise) it mostly happens at like 3 AM and no admemes are on to apply the rules anyway, so people can do whatever they want

We have a new urgent ahelp system in the works which can ping admins in discord for when no admins are online. We've onboarded tons of new candidates lately. This in combination with policy which better enables admins to deal with such behavior will produce results, even if it doesn't completely solve it (which is impossible so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:57 am bagil we are talking about bagil not soybil

Nah this will affect all servers so it's definitely fair to share their experiences. I think it would benefit all of them, just at this moment Bagil the most.

imsxz wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:41 pm admins are already within their power to ban for lowpop murderbone, see asher clarkes ban. don't need to add more rules for it.

Also: see rule 1. Please use it.

We already have rules for this. I want them updated, as opposed to disregarding them to quote 3 year old precedent which no doubt will be a headache to enforce.

Hard no on a ban for me, this would just make Basil manuel-lite permanently until it goes up in pop, secondly what would even constitute murderbone, 1 fnr kill, 2? 3? do you need to justify every murder to an admin? the nuances and problems that would need to be kinked out with this are a problem, and I think antagonists should be free to do whatever they want, if you don't want to be living on a whim then maybe the game just isn't for you or you should try the servers we have that already offer this, if you want a server with no murderbone and lowpop? campbell needs some love. The rules we already have are fit for purpose in what they seek to achieve, they encourage admins not to ban what we have for a long time held to be acceptable and to seek alternative means unless someone is a problem player. Yes I agree that the implication you shouldn't note is weird and should be overturned though because that is how we track things in the first place.

EDIT: By problem player I mean consistently murderboning on low-pop and killing player-count

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:15 pm secondly what would even constitute murderbone, 1 fnr kill, 2? 3? do you need to justify every murder to an admin? the nuances and problems that would need to be kinked out with this are a problem

Pandarsenic wrote:I think it's very easy to tell at a glance when Murderbone has happened because a shitload of people are dead, it's usually unrelated to objectives, and more often than not it starts with someone arming up and initiating a deathmatch with the entire station before they've been found out as an antag.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:30 amI don't think it's "nebulous" at all; I think it's very easy to tell at a glance when Murderbone has happened because a shitload of people are dead, it's usually unrelated to objectives, and more often than not it starts with someone arming up and initiating a deathmatch with the entire station before they've been found out as an antag.

Your definition doesn't differentiate between mass murder that improves the round and mass murder that doesn't improve the round. Unless your intention is to ban mass murder completely, this definition is not useful.

Why is people suddenly acting dumb cause of semantics, "unclear definitions" and shit?
If a tot reduces the (20) population of a server to down to 1, or is in the process of doing so, then that's a murderbone.

You're welcome.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:12 pm Why is people suddenly acting dumb cause of semantics, "unclear definitions" and shit?
If a tot reduces the (20) population of a server to down to 1, or is in the process of doing so, then that's a murderbone.

You're welcome.

Is it still "murderbone" if those 19 people died in an interesting way that made the round memorable for everyone?

Farquaar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:20 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:12 pm Why is people suddenly acting dumb cause of semantics, "unclear definitions" and shit?
If a tot reduces the (20) population of a server to down to 1, or is in the process of doing so, then that's a murderbone.

You're welcome.

Is it still "murderbone" if those 19 people died in an interesting way that made the round memorable for everyone?

Yes. Not mutually exclusive.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:24 pm

Farquaar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:20 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:12 pm Why is people suddenly acting dumb cause of semantics, "unclear definitions" and shit?
If a tot reduces the (20) population of a server to down to 1, or is in the process of doing so, then that's a murderbone.

You're welcome.

Is it still "murderbone" if those 19 people died in an interesting way that made the round memorable for everyone?

Yes. Not mutually exclusive.

Why then should it be prohibited for a round to end with nearly everyone's death if it was accomplished in an interesting way?

Farquaar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:45 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:24 pm

Farquaar wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:20 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:12 pm Why is people suddenly acting dumb cause of semantics, "unclear definitions" and shit?
If a tot reduces the (20) population of a server to down to 1, or is in the process of doing so, then that's a murderbone.

You're welcome.

Is it still "murderbone" if those 19 people died in an interesting way that made the round memorable for everyone?

Yes. Not mutually exclusive.

Why then should it be prohibited for a round to end with nearly everyone's death if it was accomplished in an interesting way?

This is a hypothetical and very convenient extreme about everyone "enjoying a murderbone" on a round, which realistically isn't nor will ever be true.
If there's a case to be made here it's about how someone systematically removing every single player from a low pop round is actually not that good and enjoyable of a thing for all involved parties, and more so in bagil, where this isn't helping the pop nor the culture revert back to something healthier.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:14 amThis is a hypothetical and very convenient extreme about everyone "enjoying a murderbone" on a round, which realistically isn't nor will ever be true.

This is objectively false. Plasmaflood rounds are fun. Vigilante mobs vs crazed gunman shootouts are fun. Last stands against ascended heretics are fun. Major threats are fun, and you can't have a major threat unless there's a realistic possibility that most of the station will end up dead.

There's a recurring problem on Manuel where people are indifferent to antags because "Hey, what are the odds they're going to kill me?" Take away an antag's ability to potentially kill anyone, and you take away their menace and gravitas.

SS13 is not space-office-with-an-assassin-sometimes simulator. Players die. Sometimes a lot of players die. Sometimes everyone dies. That's what makes SS13 a chaotic mess of unpredictable fun.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:52 am

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:14 amThis is a hypothetical and very convenient extreme about everyone "enjoying a murderbone" on a round, which realistically isn't nor will ever be true.

This is objectively false. Plasmaflood rounds are fun. Vigilante mobs vs crazed gunman shootouts are fun. Last stands against ascended heretics are fun. Major threats are fun, and you can't have a major threat unless there's a realistic possibility that most of the station will end up dead.

There's a recurring problem on Manuel where people are indifferent to antags because "Hey, what are the odds they're going to kill me?" Take away an antag's ability to potentially kill anyone, and you take away their menace and gravitas.

SS13 is not space-office-with-an-assassin-sometimes simulator. Players die. Sometimes a lot of players die. Sometimes everyone dies. That's what makes SS13 a chaotic mess of unpredictable fun.

This is being said considering your own preferences, playstyle, and server selection, so not really that objective. Do you really speak for the whole community right now when you say EVERYONE enjoys (your own definition of) "good" low pop murderbones? C'mon now Farquaar.

Also, I'm not arguing for murderbone being banned at all, I also think at this point it's a deep rooted part of the LRP experience and culture. This is why my idea was code-based instead of policy-based (I'm gonna guess you didn't read my first post).
All things considered, there's obviously a problem, and I want to think you've read posts from people in this thread talking about why it's affecting Bagil and low pop rounds in a negative way.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:16 am

Farquaar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:52 am

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:14 amThis is a hypothetical and very convenient extreme about everyone "enjoying a murderbone" on a round, which realistically isn't nor will ever be true.

This is objectively false. Plasmaflood rounds are fun. Vigilante mobs vs crazed gunman shootouts are fun. Last stands against ascended heretics are fun. Major threats are fun, and you can't have a major threat unless there's a realistic possibility that most of the station will end up dead.

There's a recurring problem on Manuel where people are indifferent to antags because "Hey, what are the odds they're going to kill me?" Take away an antag's ability to potentially kill anyone, and you take away their menace and gravitas.

SS13 is not space-office-with-an-assassin-sometimes simulator. Players die. Sometimes a lot of players die. Sometimes everyone dies. That's what makes SS13 a chaotic mess of unpredictable fun.

This is being said considering your own preferences, playstyle, and server selection, so not really that objective. Do you really speak for the whole community right now when you say EVERYONE enjoys (your own definition of) "good" low pop murderbones? C'mon now Farquaar.

Also, I'm not arguing for murderbone being banned at all, I also think at this point it's a deep rooted part of the LRP experience and culture. This is why my idea was code-based instead of policy-based (I'm gonna guess you didn't read my first post).
All things considered, there's obviously a problem, and I want to think you've read posts from people in this thread talking about why it's affecting Bagil and low pop rounds in a negative way.

Let it be noted that it's only fun for the people who are actively searching for the threat and cooperating together.
For the people who were already killed or round removed by some fucker, it's not fun to watch, especially if you are waiting for someone to find your body and revive you.
And that's only if you KNOW there is a threat and you can gather up enough people to form a mob specifically to hunt that person down.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:52 am This is objectively false. Plasmaflood rounds are fun. Vigilante mobs vs crazed gunman shootouts are fun. Last stands against ascended heretics are fun. Major threats are fun, and you can't have a major threat unless there's a realistic possibility that most of the station will end up dead.

Ok I won't lie the plasmaflood argument somewhat weakens my passion here just because I fucking love plasmafloods. Still - those other two you listed are not how it plays out on low/deadpop. There are no vigilante mobs. There are no last stands. It typically takes the form of random players quietly minding their business being quietly killed by some guy with more gear than any of them could care to get. At least, this is what bothers me, and this is what I want to stop.

I would be absolutely fine with admins being encouraged to use discretion with these things. However as it is we are ill equipped to deal with the bad faith actors in these situations due to the poor wording of the current policy, and I would like that changed. At this point I'm almost tempted to invoke rule 0 to stamp out such behavior, but knowingly going against the former ruling to do so is so unbelievably cringe and without a doubt a series of arguments I would rather avoid.

I firmly believe the behavior I described above is unhealthy for a server and that in most cases, your glorifications fall short of reality.

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:15 pm Hard no on a ban for me, this would just make Basil manuel-lite permanently until it goes up in pop, secondly what would even constitute murderbone, 1 fnr kill, 2? 3? do you need to justify every murder to an admin? the nuances and problems that would need to be kinked out with this are a problem,

In light of the above post I'll adjust my aim here to be banning bad faith murderbone that isn't conducive to server health. Murderbone is already clearly defined in the MRP ruleset, which is now something that admins are supposed to know, so I don't think it will be too difficult. Enforcement however would absolutely be naunced which I don't see as a bad thing, admins should be encouraged to decide on their own whether or not a players actions are contributing to the overall health of a round.

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:15 pmand I think antagonists should be free to do whatever they want, if you don't want to be living on a whim then maybe the game just isn't for you or you should try the servers we have that already offer this, if you want a server with no murderbone and lowpop? campbell needs some love.

Hardly think saying "go play on other servers" is an appropriate response here, that is how you kill a server pop.

To give something to go off here, I would suggest a policy along the lines of:

Admins are encouraged to judge whether or not lowpop (under 30 players connected to the server) murderbone (using the MRP definition) is conducive to a healthy round. If not, one should start with warnings and escalate to bans depending on history with such matters and rule 1.

When deciding whether or not murderbone is acceptable, one should consider: the relative health and stability of the servers pop and culture, whether or not it contributed something of value to the experience of players, and simply whether it was fun(ny) or not.

Bit wordy and could definitely be refined but I think you get the point of what I want here.

players in this thread have a huge skill issue zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, just kill them.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:44 pm players in this thread have a huge skill issue zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, just kill them.

On days it was so bad, i went to cargo just to get myself some guns for selfdefence, roundstart
But that wasnt really what i considered fun so i kinda stopped lowpop for good

kieth4 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:44 pm players in this thread have a huge skill issue zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, just kill them.

genuinely awful take when you consider that Bagil's slow regain in pop has a major aspect being genuinely new people
I cannot and do not expect new players to be good or "robust" in a game where robust players are robust because of hundreds of hours spent learning in-depth mechanical concepts for a game like this

"bro just kill them" also falls apart when you want to talk to anyone who hasn't powergamed from the start of the shift versus the man who's been loading up for the past half an hour with gamer gear to kill people in a situation where there's no other people to assist you (lowpop)

Traitor gear is at its strong point when it's one-on-one - lowpop is the ideal case for this gear to be at its high point. Lowpop murderbone is fucking easy, boring, and unfun for the folks who have to suffer it.

“Go play another server” misses the point that we want them playing on ours.

Cobby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:04 pm “Go play another server” misses the point that we want them playing on ours.

Go play another server that we own. Anyway genuinely in all seriousness the current rules are fit for purpose. if someone does it frequently or back to back tell them to stop and create a note that you warned them. Don't create some quasi-mrp state for basil