/tg/Station 13

There has been a lot of back and fourth on the changeling MMI test on MRP. (Debraining a potential changeling and seeing if the brain can be put into an MMI- if not it's a ling). I've yet to see a proper ruling on it but most admins and players seem to agree that it's not right to do. Will there ever be a ruling on it? What is everyone's thoughts?

There're much easier ways to figure it out that you've probably got access to, so I don't see the issue myself. If you decap (or debrain) and the body says reviveable instead of having the skull, it's a 'Ling.

My understanding is that this is already not allowed

It's an exploit, and has been ruled as such in the past.

Is it also considered an exploit to notice that the MedHUD says the headless corpse can be revived?

So far as I am aware, it has been consistently ruled in the past that intentionally making use of any method to test for changeling status that is not dependant on a changeling having used their abilities is exploiting unintended behaviour. You can make use of tells that arise as a result of the use of changeling abilities (Examples: noting changeling haste in someone's bloodstream, noting that flesh clothing is unremovable, etc) but any methods to test for the -status- of being a changeling are no-no.

spookuni wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:51 am So far as I am aware, it has been consistently ruled in the past that intentionally making use of any method to test for changeling status that is not dependant on a changeling having used their abilities is exploiting unintended behaviour. You can make use of tells that arise as a result of the use of changeling abilities (Examples: noting changeling haste in someone's bloodstream, noting that flesh clothing is unremovable, etc) but any methods to test for the -status- of being a changeling are no-no.

So if you've removed the head/brain for another reason (transplant because you fear someone's Teeth Pills which you Know About, for example) and you notice, it's fine to act on, but don't go removing the brain just to check?

What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:37 am What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

meth, potassium and holy water, RDX and Napalm, the list goes on would you like to hear?

List: there is MANY opportunities

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:37 am What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

This particular person is someone who once filled his teethpills with explosives and killed half of the Security Team in one go with them. We knew he had some (we'd checked), so went with going for a brain transplant to deal with rather than let that happen again. The opening clip to this video is that incident.

(Clarification: We knew he had teeth pills because I was the MD who had inserted them. But all I had was his claim of what they were (healing pills), so when it came out that he was an antag, and I saw he still had all of them in his teeth, precautions were taken)

Yeah this is already considered an exploit even on LRP I think.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:27 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:37 am What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

This particular person is someone who once filled his teethpills with explosives and killed half of the Security Team in one go with them.

taking off someone's head because they've done something in a previous round when you would normally not is considered metagrudging or abusing metaknowledge.
Avoid doing this.

As for the "ling check", it's been ruled previously as an exploit and all responding staff here have said the same. Don't do this.

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:28 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:27 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:37 am What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

This particular person is someone who once filled his teethpills with explosives and killed half of the Security Team in one go with them.

taking off someone's head because they've done something in a previous round when you would normally not is considered metagrudging or abusing metaknowledge.
Avoid doing this.

As for the "ling check", it's been ruled previously as an exploit and all responding staff here have said the same. Don't do this.

The teethpills they asked me to insert were, to their own admission, healing pills and bath salts. Even if they were true to the claim (they were), I would've done this. I probably should've mentioned this initially, but c'est la vie. And for the immediate question I sense coming, he has a mix he uses often that makes it survivable with (mostly) minimal side effects and it's not metaknowledge because he literally taught me the recipe/mix in character.

(There IS an argument to be made about the fact that sometimes that's the right thing to do, so that someone doesn't just do the same thing repeatedly with no changes and you just kinda have to smile, nod and ignore the obvious signs because you're not allowed to know "this person does this repeatedly haha " but that's a discussion for another policy thread)

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:28 pm taking off someone's head because they've done something in a previous round when you would normally not is considered metagrudging or abusing metaknowledge.
Avoid doing this.

What's the line between "Metagrudging" and "Responding to a person's reputation" here?

What if you never even met them, but you've heard about it, like immediately checking on Herr in atmospherics once 8-12 maxcaps go off in the disposals loop? What if they've fully admitted that's a thing they normally do? What if, as there, it's something they taught you how to do? What if it's something more people should learn how to do, but haven't (to use Herr again, because people absolutely do meta him over it, the Nitryl Nitrium Decomposition Maxcap)?

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:59 am

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:28 pm taking off someone's head because they've done something in a previous round when you would normally not is considered metagrudging or abusing metaknowledge.
Avoid doing this.

What's the line between "Metagrudging" and "Responding to a person's reputation" here?

What if you never even met them, but you've heard about it, like immediately checking on Herr in atmospherics once 8-12 maxcaps go off in the disposals loop? What if they've fully admitted that's a thing they normally do? What if, as there, it's something they taught you how to do? What if it's something more people should learn how to do, but haven't (to use Herr again, because people absolutely do meta him over it, the Nitryl Nitrium Decomposition Maxcap)?

eh, fair. I jumped at it mainly because I saw the word "once". If you do it enough times I can begin to understand the point of view, but a one-off and permanently getting shat on for it is, in my own opinion (and not an official ruling in any way, shape, or form) pretty fuckin lame.

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:28 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:27 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:37 am What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

This particular person is someone who once filled his teethpills with explosives and killed half of the Security Team in one go with them.

taking off someone's head because they've done something in a previous round when you would normally not is considered metagrudging or abusing metaknowledge.
Avoid doing this.

Was gonna say this exact thing. Please stop being lame, folks, it's bad and metagrudging is bad.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:13 am

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:28 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:27 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:37 am What teeth pills are worth removing someones head over?

This particular person is someone who once filled his teethpills with explosives and killed half of the Security Team in one go with them.

taking off someone's head because they've done something in a previous round when you would normally not is considered metagrudging or abusing metaknowledge.
Avoid doing this.

Was gonna say this exact thing. Please stop being lame, folks, it's bad and metagrudging is bad.

I mean the part above you gives you all of the missing information that wasn't included because I didn't expect to be treated like I'm under investigation for warcrimes, but go off.

Killing someone, removing their brain, and placing it in an MMI for the explicit purpose of determining whether or not someone is a changeling is considered an exploit.

Headmin Votes
Dragomagol: Yes
NamelessFairy: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes