/tg/Station 13

In line with the headadmins approach to cracking down on slur's and the changing wider internet culture it's become quite apparent we need to add the hard c word to the filter.

If the headadmins are truly committed to the removal of racism in our game then hopefully this change will be done quite quickly.

I have reproduced the word in it's entirety below
Content warning (slur)

Which filter do you mean? Hard or soft?

I don't believe in use of the soft filter wesoda, I believe when we reach for the filter it should be the last resort, so hard filter.

I don’t think this will be done, from what I understand the reason for adding just the n word to the hard filter was both it’s prevalence and historical usage (which made it OOC). I think all slurs would logically count as OOC, but this word seems hardly as ingrained or widespread as the n word was.

I can't believe oranges definitely watches hasan what the actual fuck

Rave promised me that I can always say cunt.

A nice thread. Unfortunately, the description of the; sonic jackhammer contains the word c******, and given it's existance, it
may appear in the game; under some sort
of circumstances. Should that occur, a
gamer may read the text and be exposed to the word c****** regardless of filter settings. This sends a clear message to the player: it is fine and IC-appropriate to
use the word c****** on tgstation servers. But; should a player actually try to
say the hard c word, the message will be blocked. This would be an unacceptable form of ban baiting. For this reason, the fight for cracker rights is currently a code issue.

So we can't feed crackers to poly anymore?

carshalash wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:11 pm Rave promised me that I can always say cunt.

this is why I fucked oranges mom(Call me dad)

I propose, instead, that the second-lightest skin tone be renamed to "cracker" and examining people who use it shows you the recipe

I don't know what he's actually trying to say here because I'm not familiar with Hasan Piker outside of what I just googled which said he was a gay communist who called people cracker and got banned from Twitch for it so I'll just respond as if it was meant sincerely. I don't think we have a problem with players using the word cracker in a way that promotes racism or demeans other people based on aspects of their identity that they have no control over.

The n word (nigger) on the other hand has people on the servers who use it quite racistly and we need to civilise these working class heroes through censorship. We can't remove the terrible values and beliefs they were raised with (and the internet has strengthened) from their brains (because most of them won't be attending university) but we can infringe on their ability to express them in spaces we (the neoliberal hegemony) have control over. I hate Terry players (Social Darwinists) so much it's unreal.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:51 pm

carshalash wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:11 pm Rave promised me that I can always say cunt.

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It's sad to see the number of alt right bigots and nazi's this thread is exposing.

The satire here is good but not for policy discussion.

Moving this.

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:45 pm It's sad to see the number of alt right bigots and nazi's this thread is exposing.

if only you could just ban them all, amirite

sí che

saltine

RaveRadbury wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:03 pm The satire here is good but not for policy discussion.

Moving this.

This is extremely inappropriate, I can assure you this is not a joke, I will be making an admin complaint on this behaviour.

Locking this topic to prevent people posting under offtopic rules.

Moved back to policy discussion by request

There are a number of slurs for various peoples that have not been added to the filter list. We functionally do not need a filter list a mile long to be able to accurately enforce a policy against racism/bigotry/et cetera.
If bigotry is gone in 2560, any prejudice towards someone's race or ethnicity or religion or whatnot is functionally OOC - adding "cracker" or "porch monkey" or "zipperhead" or "redskin" or any of the other far less-seen slurs probably will not help as "what makes a slur" is entirely dependent on user creativity at some point. (We don't treat goddamn flagpoles in my medbay, get the fuck out)
There is the argument to be made about the creative slurs that cannot be used in regular contexts (can't imagine anyone would say "zipperhead" without referring to the slur, for example) but there are more than just a few with benign uses. I've been called "white bread" in the past, as an example. Ultimately this leads to my belief that we really just don't need a mile-long blocklist, and rather just a list of the most common words of choice. Administrators are here for a reason.

If you see it, ahelp it.


As an aside, I think that mockery of a system that's designed to help by suggesting "silly" or "functionally worthless" additions is in incredibly poor taste, but honestly I don't know what else I was expecting when it comes to anything with nuance.

>I think that mockery of a system that's designed to help by suggesting "silly" or "functionally worthless" additions is in incredibly poor taste

This will always be a very subjective measure, and as such is utterly useless for anyone besides yourself.

Personally I think it's a pathetic joke that it's socially acceptable to be horrifically racist to the english by comparison, but maybe that's starting to step away from the purpose of this thread.
We need to figure out where we draw a line on what to add to these lists we've established as... worth having for whatever reason. It's good to have this discussion at this point, however useless I see it as.

Glad to see this moved back to policy discussion, but personally I'd rather see words not be mechanically filtered to create the need for this sort of figuring out.
Maybe people that care a lot more than I do could look into correlation between people using this slur on the game servers and if they've been removed from the servers from their behavior relative to people using other slurs and getting removed, to try and get some grasp of a measure as to if it's worth the bother to consider filtering a word that is literally a food item. It's a waste of time and effort to me.

Having seen a commercial product censor the word milk on a can of tea (they literally put "m*lk" on the can) I'm far more disappointed in people conceding that these terms are offensive rather than asserting that they are not and dealing with shitheads that insist otherwise by persisting to use them in an offensive context
It's just a flatbread that has a long shelf life to me, and if you insist on using it otherwise that most likely falls under rule 1 and we have no need for this sort of busy-bodying at that point

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:56 am Locking this topic to prevent people posting under offtopic rules.

So your solution is censoring words, then censoring threads.
This is how Oranges makes the game better.

ArcaneDefence wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:22 am Personally I think it's a pathetic joke that it's socially acceptable to be horrifically racist to the english by comparison, but maybe that's starting to step away from the purpose of this thread.

We need to figure out where we draw a line on what to add to these lists we've established as... worth having for whatever reason. It's good to have this discussion at this point, however useless I see it as.

Let's be real.

There is unironically a point to be considered here regardless of whether the thread is full of satire or not.

No one gets to pick and choose what is and isn't bigotry or which people's history it will adhere to.

Downplaying cracker as being a joke is the kind of thing I'd expect out of a white suburbanite that's never actually experienced racism themselves outside of whatever media gets fed to them.

Unless someone actually wants to come out and say it's impossible for white people to be discriminated against, in which case I'll point them to South Africa, or Japan. Or tell them to live in the hood for a year.

It's just one of many reasons filtering is a massive rabbit hole.

could someone unironically explain to me why it's against the rules to use slurs in game but its perfectly fine to be ABSOLUTELY racist/speciesist to lizards/moths/felinids in game?

its the same thought process isnt it?
one is supposed "real racism" while the other is "fake" racism?

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:18 pm could someone unironically explain to me why it's against the rules to use slurs in game but its perfectly fine to be ABSOLUTELY racist/speciesist to lizards/moths/felinids in game?

its the same thought process isnt it?
one is supposed "real racism" while the other is "fake" racism?

No, I am speciesist against catgirls in real life too.
Is any further explaination necessary?

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:18 pm could someone unironically explain to me why it's against the rules to use slurs in game but its perfectly fine to be ABSOLUTELY racist/speciesist to lizards/moths/felinids in game?

its the same thought process isnt it?
one is supposed "real racism" while the other is "fake" racism?

To answer this, you have to think about why people don't like racism and what being racist to this sci-fi fictional species is lacking

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:18 pm could someone unironically explain to me why it's against the rules to use slurs in game but its perfectly fine to be ABSOLUTELY racist/speciesist to lizards/moths/felinids in game?

its the same thought process isnt it?
one is supposed "real racism" while the other is "fake" racism?

I think this is better summed by intentions rather than through thought process.

While some use it as a detached means of exploring the theme of discrimination itself, others seek to voice intolerance in general, skin deep avoidance of things that are not the same, or something else entirely.

What kind of approach do you think is more prevalent? Do you think there is a difference between the outcomes someone is looking for? Is someone looking to get a rise out of being socially contrasting the same as someone looking to peer through the looking glass?

That said, in environments where it is explored more as a theme, there is a greater reason to, characteristics and traits that actually fundamentally set things apart. A spaceman game example being something like the Vox race, I guess, there are plenty of dialed in reasons to actually NOT like them or want anything to do with them. For us, that isn't there. So someone running around spamming ligger is an obvious shoe in for the same lack of characteristic differences that you see for us in reality, in the here and now. So why would I have any reason to not regard it the same way I would that intolerance?

Bad bait unless oranges vows to immediately remove the numerous uses of the word cracker from the codebase

Mickyan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:34 pm Bad bait unless oranges vows to immediately remove the numerous uses of the word cracker from the codebase

The real question is, will the repo get nuked if he doesn't.

If not, I'm pretty confident this is a bad faith argument because the soft filter got attention.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:18 pm could someone unironically explain to me why it's against the rules to use slurs in game but its perfectly fine to be ABSOLUTELY racist/speciesist to lizards/moths/felinids in game?

its the same thought process isnt it?
one is supposed "real racism" while the other is "fake" racism?

For me, it's about the meta-context. Being a fake racist doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't even make you a questionable person (show me a decent GM who hasn't played a fake racist before). And the obvious reason is that it's not personally offensive to anyone. I'm not necessarily advocating for any filter, but I think it's dumb to try to compare them in this context.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:24 pm

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:18 pm could someone unironically explain to me why it's against the rules to use slurs in game but its perfectly fine to be ABSOLUTELY racist/speciesist to lizards/moths/felinids in game?

its the same thought process isnt it?
one is supposed "real racism" while the other is "fake" racism?

To answer this, you have to think about why people don't like racism and what being racist to this sci-fi fictional species is lacking

Idk why people are providing answers when the best and most correct possible answer has already been given

still awaiting a response.

we should civilise australia

viewtopic.php?p=624264#p624264

Your post in this thread implies that this thread was only made with malicous intent to put the headmins in a "gotcha" and not as anything genuine, despite your insistence that your stance is such, including making an admin complaint.

I thought this thread existed to make fun of twitch commies who make their fortune stealing others content?

Hulkamania wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 am viewtopic.php?p=624264#p624264

Your post in this thread implies that this thread was only made with malicous intent to put the headmins in a "gotcha" and not as anything genuine, despite your insistence that your stance is such, including making an admin complaint.

oranges wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:35 pm we refuse to put in leak proof piping because it entails rolling over for people who will spend the rest of their days arguing about what other microaggressions need to be removed to make tgstation a safe space for robosexual microagressionphobic people of choice and whatever next fad comes along.

Which is why I can make a thread about filtering the word cracker and the headadmins literally have no choice but to take it seriously or expose themselves as hypocrites.

This whole thing, including the complaint, was clearly satire. Great job to oranges for pointing out issues with our system. We all had a good laugh, but now the joke's out and all the ambiguity is gone.

MSO has clearly shown that if something slur-related is going to end up on the filter it has to be overused and spammy, rather than just morally repugnant.