/tg/Station 13

headmins said they dont consider it a wordfilter bypass even though it's a single letter swap, it's obviously the n-word but adjusted by a single character, we hardfilter the n-word, we should consider it filter evasion to swap a letter on the n-word given that if someone swapped all the Gs for Bs they'd get banned too

we shouldn't cater to people who think swapping the n for an l in the n-word is funny

Fully agreed

I would personally consider it like, the world's loudest dog whistle, so yeah I agree it's pretty tasteless.

Aeri wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:00 am I would personally consider it like, the world's loudest dog whistle, so yeah I agree it's pretty tasteless.

if you keep hearing dog whistles you might be a dog

personally i consider ligger to be tasteless because it's low effort

you gotta put some fucking work into your slurs

i prefer calling lizardmen taildraggers, bentlegs, coldblood, or SKINKS

well fuck me for typing longer and slower I guess I'm just gonna copypaste what I had

Evading the Word Filter & IC vs. OOC Racism
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29973

As per linked thread, headmins ruled that the word "nigger" will be added to the word filter as of Oct 10, 2021. Timberpoes asked for clarification about saying "ligger" in this thread, which was met with absolutely no response. Now, normally, this wouldn't be a problem however I've been informed by an admin that the word "ligger" is explicitly allowed by headmins and I am unable to find information anywhere to verify this, only that it's never been explicitly allowed or denied by a headmin. I believe saying "ligger" is just a cheap copout to get around the word filter, and it should be treated as such. Surely, replacing one letter could be seen as some kind of rule violation for skirting around a word filter specifically put in place.

Along with:

1. Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules, this also includes harassing a player OOC (Out of character). Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.

11. Bigotry is not allowed.
Intentionally seeking to demean others due to their actual or perceived race, sex, gender, orientation or the like is not tolerated. It is not our goal to create or enforce a list of banned words and instead our goal to eject the expression of bigotry from the community. Enforcement will be less PC based and more common sense based with that goal in mind.
This means rather than warning or banning for quoting a usage such as "Griff McNazi got banned for calling somebody a faggot" or even things like "nigga pls" and "what are you faggots playing" which are generally not statements made to be bigoted, we'll focus more on statements like "you talk like a [insert stereotype]" or "x is a [insert slur]".

This isn't to say in-character racism should be outlawed, only that players who just want to say the funny n word shouldn't be allowed to do such by changing a single letter around. It's not really fooling anyone.

The meaning and intent is radically different.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

don't vaguepost like this, and no, we all know it's the n-word with a letter swapped, you don't get to pretend otherwise

Agreed

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:02 am

Aeri wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:00 am I would personally consider it like, the world's loudest dog whistle, so yeah I agree it's pretty tasteless.

if you keep hearing dog whistles you might be a dog

personally i consider ligger to be tasteless because it's low effort

you gotta put some fucking work into your slurs

i prefer calling lizardmen taildraggers, bentlegs, coldblood, or SKINKS

i agree with this, at it's most charitable its just lame when you could be more creative with your "speciesism" and i would support it being added to the world filter

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

Would you like me to get the intent of the specific situation that prompted this thread be made?

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

No, it isn't.

Go ahead and explain it if you want to waste your time, it's obvious what it is.

thgvr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:24 am

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

Would you like me to get the intent of the specific situation that prompted this thread be made?

Sure

There is no official stance either way, this has been brought up numerous times in the admin channels and going on 3 months from when I asked for clarification about ligger the headmins finally said they'd discuss it as of late last month.

It's just nigger with an L instead of an N.

Lizards don't come from Ligeria. There's absolutely no IC backing for the slur. It was created from the word nigger. Its roots are obvious. Its intent is obvious. To call people nigger lizard. Ligger.

See also nyagger and feligger for other oh so highly creative ways to call people niggers but hide behind species.

The real question is whether nigger is allowed to form the basis of ANY of our IC slurs against species.

I'd like to see it gone just so people would come up with more original ones.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:31 am

thgvr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:24 am

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

Would you like me to get the intent of the specific situation that prompted this thread be made?

Sure

Seems like this player wanted to make a circuit that calls you racial slurs (this is not logged), and was disappointed it "doesn't work on humans" so he defaulted to making it say ligger instead.

SO true king

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

This is really disingenuous and gross. It's very plain what it is. It gets brought up a lot that it is fantastical and fictional, but the fact is that if you were to yell it IRL at someone in a supermarket, you would get your butt kicked for being a racist. I don't think a single person could sit down with someone IRL with a straight face and try to explain that it is just a fantasy slur that has nothing to do with the other word.

Oh my god how is this still an argument. It's just using a real world racial slur with a letter swapped, but all of the meaning of it being a derogatory term is kept - and continuing to normalise things like this only makes us look terrible to any normal, well adjusted humans who might want to check out this cool SS13 thing that they heard about.

Sylphet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:44 am Oh my god how is this still an argument. It's just using a real world racial slur with a letter swapped, but all of the meaning of it being a derogatory term is kept - and continuing to normalise things like this only makes us look terrible to any normal, well adjusted humans who might want to check out this cool SS13 thing that they heard about.

I fucking miss the internet before normal well adjusted humans infected it when if some retard called you a nigger you just told him you banged his mom and had fun with other people instead of shitting a brick sideways and crying in the shower about it and demanding that Joe Biden shut down the game because one person calling you the n-word there means EVERYONE using the game must be some sort of DRUMPTIST XTIAN

Normies would ruin this fucking game, we need more autistics to code and brain-fried weirdos to create funny moments in game

Sylphet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:44 am Oh my god how is this still an argument. It's just using a real world racial slur with a letter swapped, but all of the meaning of it being a derogatory term is kept - and continuing to normalise things like this only makes us look terrible to any normal, well adjusted humans who might want to check out this cool SS13 thing that they heard about.

i think that when "normal, well adjusted humans" see the n-word they just ignore it and go on with their lives

wierdo erp servers like skyrat make our community look much worse then the edgy tard saying "nigga" does

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:04 am

Sylphet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:44 am Oh my god how is this still an argument. It's just using a real world racial slur with a letter swapped, but all of the meaning of it being a derogatory term is kept - and continuing to normalise things like this only makes us look terrible to any normal, well adjusted humans who might want to check out this cool SS13 thing that they heard about.

i think that when "normal, well adjusted humans" see the n-word they just ignore it and go on with their lives

wierdo erp servers like skyrat make our community look much worse then the edgy tard saying "nigga" does

I didn't even know there were other servers

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 am

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:04 am

Sylphet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:44 am Oh my god how is this still an argument. It's just using a real world racial slur with a letter swapped, but all of the meaning of it being a derogatory term is kept - and continuing to normalise things like this only makes us look terrible to any normal, well adjusted humans who might want to check out this cool SS13 thing that they heard about.

i think that when "normal, well adjusted humans" see the n-word they just ignore it and go on with their lives

wierdo erp servers like skyrat make our community look much worse then the edgy tard saying "nigga" does

I didn't even know there were other servers

i envy you sincerely

I support blocking it because it's uncreative and boring, and just reeks of Ock Ick to me.

i have no strong feelings on the matter but anyone who says it is a loser

HarseTheef wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:42 am

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

This is really disingenuous and gross. It's very plain what it is. It gets brought up a lot that it is fantastical and fictional, but the fact is that if you were to yell it IRL at someone in a supermarket, you would get your butt kicked for being a racist. I don't think a single person could sit down with someone IRL with a straight face and try to explain that it is just a fantasy slur that has nothing to do with the other word.

You've seen someone get their ass kicked at the supermarket for saying a slur? Where the hell do you live?

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:02 am SKINKS

Isn't this just changing a few of the letters of the slur "Chink"? Isn't this just as bad, going by your logic?

A skink is a real type of lizard; its (coincidental) similarity to that slur is completely different from “ligger,” a word which makes 0 sense except in its similarity to the N word.

wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:12 am The meaning and intent is radically different.

Thank you for always dilligently following our mask policy

I personally think the word should be added to the hard filter, because it's honestly not clear if that falls under rule 1 or 11. Or even under both

Drag wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:05 pm I personally think the word should be added to the hard filter, because it's honestly not clear if that falls under rule 1 or 11. Or even under both

Rule one is focused on out-of-character motivation, so unless it also falls under rule 11, it very unlikely falls under rule one. You can be a dick to someone's character without being a dick to them.

Thats a lot of words to say "I am too unrobust to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole".

mso is pretty clear he wants the application of the rules to be based on real world impact, so it seems pretty unlikely he would accept this.

edit:motherfucker

when i made the "This rule applies to ALL OOC bigotry, even when expressed in IC. There is no racism in 2561, just species-ism: there is no homophobia, just xenophiliaphobia, etc." bit of the bigotry rule, for species-ism i was basically thinking of ligger and the goal was to clarify it wouldn't be banned.

It should be valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation however. It's perfectly ic to want to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole.

Spacelaw could also be reworked to take it into account, not sure about the best way to do so, but it's an option.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:06 pm when i made the "This rule applies to ALL OOC bigotry, even when expressed in IC. There is no racism in 2561, just species-ism: there is no homophobia, just xenophiliaphobia, etc." bit of the bigotry rule, for species-ism i was basically thinking of ligger and the goal was to clarify it wouldn't be banned.

It should be valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation however. It's perfectly ic to want to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole.

Spacelaw could also be reworked to take it into account, not sure about the best way to do so, but it's an option.

It is based off actual racism. It has 0 rooting in species-ism and is just an excuse to say the n-word.

The use of the L word on our servers predates the rise in people saying the n word and the rise in bigots on the server.

It was here before the bigots, it will be here after the bigots, and I refuse to let them take our fun.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:37 pm The use of the L word on our servers predates the rise in people saying the n word and the rise in bigots on the server.

It was here before the bigots, it will be here after the bigots, and I refuse to let them take our fun.

It was always an excuse to say the n-word but """funny""" mso quit pretending otherwise

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:37 pm The use of the L word on our servers predates the rise in people saying the n word and the rise in bigots on the server.

It was here before the bigots, it will be here after the bigots, and I refuse to let them take our fun.

Based MSO

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:37 pm The use of the L word on our servers predates the rise in people saying the n word and the rise in bigots on the server.

It was here before the bigots, it will be here after the bigots, and I refuse to let them take our fun.

Ligger was fun?

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:01 pm Thats a lot of words to say "I am too unrobust to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole".

(((((Someone did that on Manuel yesterday and ate a day ban)))))

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:06 pm It should be valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation however. It's perfectly ic to want to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole.

yeah this isn't actually the case as per the current rules, especially on the MRP server which is where the incident that prompted this thread took place

in this incident, we only really got away with executing the guy who said the n-word because his preferred method of saying the n-word with the n swapped for an l was "construct a roadblock in the escape hallway that prevented you from getting to the escape if you weren't a human or didn't agree to having your bank account drained, while saying the n-word with the n swapped for an l" during evac and the captain said they could be executed which i believe was the only actual reason we were allowed to let him die as per the rules, and even then the most recent scam victim got banned after throwing the guy out the airlock and getting mad in ahelps that rule 11 wasn't being enforced

so no, it's not any form of escalation to beat people up over things they said in-game, and it's definitely not allowed for lethal escalation, if you say otherwise then adjust the rules page to clarify mso

I have to ask what, exactly, makes it important that people be able to say this word specifically?

What quality does the L word have that other options lack, other than being [Dennis Prager YouTube poop voice]the N word[/Prager Voice]/immediately derived from it?

why do people keep losing their shit so hard over bad nono words i dont get it

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:06 pm It should be valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation however. It's perfectly ic to want to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole..

Escalation fucking sucks and you and everyone else should stop hiding behind it to solve policy discussions. This isn't a bloody deathmatch and escalation is not represented equally, nor does it remotely stand as a reliable way to end conflict when I know for a fact when you still permitted racial slurs to be thrown around, anyone dealing with these dickheads ic could be just as liable to eat a ban for it or get round removed while the people doing it kept screaming it every other sentence.

Grow a spine and be consistent about your policy, or the freaks who cant help themselves but scream slurs in chat who you say you want off the server will take any inch you give them to keep at it.

Will the thread be closed now that mrstonedone has basically given his ruling?

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:31 pm Will the thread be closed now that mrstonedone has basically given his ruling?

MSO's ruling doesn't line up with what the rules say, so no? It can be closed when he adjusts the rules to say that saying the n-word with the n swapped for an l is a valid escalation reason

i think Crag is right, i don't think it's really a huge deal but more creative slurs would be funnier

terranaut wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:08 pm why do people keep losing their shit so hard over bad nono words i dont get it

the slippery slope argument is not necessarily a fallacy.

you know this conversation could be solved pretty fast by putting it on the hard filter so no one gets banned for it and we all move on with our lives.

Do I want people banned for saying ligger? Not unless its being directly used in the conversation's context to just be a n word. Do I expect some admins to have a mental breakdown everytime they see the word? absolutely.

This is just another scenario where we posture about not caring if they are actual bigots unless it is leaked into an ingame expression but we also adamantly refuse to put in leak-proof piping because some of the holes are supposedly ok (but not actually because if it is allowed ur just going to get harassed about other minor stuff since the mental label has already been applied).

Now we just need someone to post about the token black friend who you want to invite to ss13 but cant because people use the word ligger and then I think we've checked off all the boxes.

we refuse to put in leak proof piping because it entails rolling over for people who will spend the rest of their days arguing about what other microaggressions need to be removed to make tgstation a safe space for robosexual microagressionphobic people of choice and whatever next fad comes along.

Which is why I can make a thread about filtering the word cracker and the headadmins literally have no choice but to take it seriously or expose themselves as hypocrites.

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:31 pm Will the thread be closed now that mrstonedone has basically given his ruling?

I was going to leave this open to see if the convo moves to space law.

It did not.