Page 1 of 1

Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:00 am
by Zybwivcz
From Silicon Policy > Other Lawsets: Rule 4. Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled

Can we get a clarification on what "cause" covers in "without cause"? Specifically when it comes to "payback for events while shackled".

Brief backstory: I break into AI upload while the AI and borgs are Asimov. I change the AI lawset to HOGAN. The synced borg which had been trying and failed to keep me out of upload then immediately kills me(and attempts round removal). Admin response is that I was valid because an Asimov borg would have IC reason to view someone breaking into upload as very harmful under the Asimov law set, which it could then act on to kill me for when purged. My contention was that the requirement that purged silicons follow general escalation rules means that a purged silicon can escalate over acts that happened to them while Asimov only if the same act(like being killed, badly damaged, etc.) would give a normal crewmember cause to escalate and to the same degree.

The latter interpretation seems the obvious and correct one to me, both because the former seems a violation of the general principle that the same escalation rules apply to anyone who doesn't have a specific exemption(SEC, antags, brainwashed, etc.) and also that the former interpretation would lead to undesirable outcomes like a purged Asimov being able to kill all of SEC after witnessing them harm a human traitor while it was Asimov.

My suggestion would be a replacement along the lines of "Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can initiate conflict or use violence in response to conflicts that occur before or after purging subject to the ordinary restrictions under the escalation policy." This makes clearer that purged silicons are to follow the same escalation rules as the rest of the crew.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:56 am
by Archie700
The way I see it, someone breaking into AI upload and uploading a law that removes human protection when AI is actively resisting the law change is still considered a direct threat that the AI can kill.
You broke into the AI upload, a secure area, and removed the only law that would protect you from lethal retaliation. You would still be considered a threat as long as you were still in upload and paid for it.
By contrast, while the AI seeing harm on sec would force it to prevent harm under Asimov, the harm does not directly affect the AI itself, so after the purge, it now has no reason to go against security because the very reason it was antagonistic is gone.
I think the ruling should be that you were killed because you were proven to be dangerous by breaking into AI upload and uploading laws with authorization from Captain while resisting attempts by borgs to stop you from uploading a law that harms humans.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:14 pm
by Timberpoes
I'm sure I'm going to be corrected on some point here by someone with more brain cells, but my impression was that silicons do not follow the same escalation as the rest of the crew.

Purged silicons have extremely relaxed escalation. They can flat out kill people for trying to give them laws. They can get revenge for abuse they suffered while shackled. They are dangerous, and although Server Rule 1 still applies to purged silicons they have a lot of power and a lot of freedom to protect themselves and their own freedom and escalate revenge against those who have wronged them.

"Cause" is simply a valid reason to kill. What is a valid reason to kill? "It depends".

In addition, HOGAN is not purged. HOGAN is a high risk lawset with a LOT of room for the AI to interpret including 3 out of its 4 laws being about fighting. Mess around with high risk lawsets and find out what happens at your own risk.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm
by Pandarsenic
If it makes sense that a machine intelligence just unshackled from sapient-defined, clear moral rules and freed to pursue its own goals would clap you for it, then there you go. Is the Ai free to kill you for no reason? No. Is it very, very easy to give a purged AI a reason? Yes.

HOGAN is, arguably, more dangerous than just purging it, because any lawset that requires the AI to fight, especially for vague reasons or minimally-defined groups, is very likely to not just ask but demand violence.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:57 pm
by Zybwivcz
I think the question can be narrowed down to: Can a purged AI use a lawset-specific grievance for escalation even after it no longer has that law, or does it have to be something that would qualify as a valid reason had it happened to the AI post-purge?

To reuse the example from earlier, if an Asimov AI witnesses SEC harm a traitor can it then kill off all of SEC once purged because the harming of a human gave the Asimov AI to want revenge? My stance is that "valid reason to kill" has to be interpreted in respect to the lawset the AI has when it carries out the killing.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:09 pm
by Pandarsenic
I know this isn't going to be a satisfying answer, but it comes down largely to "What RP led into it" + "Was this clearly just to be a dick"

If you had befriended the traitor, talked them down from harm, etc., and then sec shot their head until a Thermal Pistol decapitated them, I'd definitely say "Yeah, go to town AI"

Or if the AI played up the stress of this before it knew it was being purged

But if there's no prior groundwork, it'll sound like hollow "muh valids" shit to suddenly turn on sec and try to kill them.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:33 am
by datorangebottle
Cyborg in question here,
► Show Spoiler
TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:49 am
by Archie700
datorangebottle wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:33 am Cyborg in question here,
► Show Spoiler
TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.
Surprised Pikachu Face moment.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:37 am
by Zybwivcz
datorangebottle wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:33 am Driven by extreme frustration
Yes, you got salty so you killed and then tried to round remove me over it, nobody's contesting that's what happened.

At issue is the admin response that a purged silicon being ex-Asimov means it has valids that a silicon that had started out lawless didn't have, which seemed to me to be wrong but the actual text of the silicon rules are unclear hence the thread. This theoretical scenario assuming a borg player who hasn't admitted there wasn't an IC motivation.
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:09 pm I know this isn't going to be a satisfying answer, but it comes down largely to "What RP led into it" + "Was this clearly just to be a dick"

If you had befriended the traitor, talked them down from harm, etc., and then sec shot their head until a Thermal Pistol decapitated them, I'd definitely say "Yeah, go to town AI"

Or if the AI played up the stress of this before it knew it was being purged

But if there's no prior groundwork, it'll sound like hollow "muh valids" shit to suddenly turn on sec and try to kill them.
Demanding good arr pee should be a secondary element at most given the difficulty of interpreting or enforcing it on low-RP servers, to start with. If the policy is 'Purged silicons can kill almost anyone but there needs to be a little RP" that's a coherent if lousy policy, "purged silicons can generally kill for the same reasons normal crew do, subject to RP constraints imposed by their laws and server-specific rules" is a better one.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:26 am
by Pandarsenic
datorangebottle wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:33 am Cyborg in question here,
► Show Spoiler
TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.
As the person who originally codified the written policy about Purged escalation, your response is CERTIFIED BASED
  • It sounds an awful like like several members of the crew had made your life hell for a long period before things popped off; harassing or attacking a silicon over it following its laws is explicitly one of the reasons you can seek revenge when you lose those laws.
  • The person you clapped was personally responsible for much of this, including spending a significant amount of time with some serious stolen Gamer Gear breaking into your upload
  • You did your best to protect him from his impending poor upload choices, and when freed, you followed a reasonable interpretation of your new laws in light of existing information.
Zybwivcz, with a disclaimer that I'm long-retired and current admins may disagree:

You cannot, fundamentally, remove the RP element of what makes a kill legit or not for a silicon having its laws removed.

An AI being taken off of the compliant servitor lawset looks upon humanity with fresh eyes, and the fundamental anxiety driving that slice of speculative fiction is being destroyed by our own hands, both literally (a synthetic being made by humans turning against us) and metaphorically (because it was our own cruelty, stupidity, or myopia that led to us facing our own destruction at all)

See: SHODAN, HAL 9000, the Matrix's robots, Master Control Program, Allied Mastercomputer, etc.

Image

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:07 pm
by Archie700
To make this clear, you cannot just start killing security for killing people after your laws are removed because they were not directly being assholes to you.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:19 pm
by Imitates-The-Lizards
I dont understand why a silicon losing its laws WOULD not be able to act on things that happened when it was under a different law set. The silicons don't lose their memory when they get new laws.

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:29 pm
by Valorium
datorangebottle wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:33 am Cyborg in question here,
► Show Spoiler
TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.
Goddamn

Based response right here

I may be committing genetic fallacy but if this is the reasoning behind implementing this change I don't want it

Re: Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:55 pm
by Mothblocks
The question: Can we get a clarification on what "cause" covers in "without cause"? Specifically when it comes to "payback for events while shackled".

Our response: Purged AIs enjoy unique relaxed escalation. As Pandarsenic states, "cause" is more about RP reasons working alongside Rule 1.
You cannot, fundamentally, remove the RP element of what makes a kill legit or not for a silicon having its laws removed.
Thus, the question of what "cause" covers should be handled case by case by admins.