/tg/Station 13

Good points:

1) emergency shuttles are opt in
2) people seem to like the crazy ones
3) some people seem to disagree with the ruling

I believe this ruling didn't get it''s fair share in court due to being part of a ban appeal rather than a policy thread.

Dangerous shuttles are fun, and shuttles are opt-in anyway since you can always use escape pods. And since the emag change, we barely see the dangerous shuttles anymore, getting on the disco inferno even though I know I'm going to die while listening to Carameldansen is fun.

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 1:03 pm I believe this ruling didn't get it''s fair share in court due to being part of a ban appeal rather than a policy thread.

Dangerous shuttles are fun, and shuttles are opt-in anyway since you can always use escape pods. And since the emag change, we barely see the dangerous shuttles anymore, getting on the disco inferno even though I know I'm going to die while listening to Carameldansen is fun.

I completely agree with Wine here. It was a poor choice to make this ruling with no admin or player discussion on the matter and seems to have really upset some folks. I personally really enjoy the so called grief shuttles (I don't think they are griefy though) they are fun addition to an otherwise boring part of the round. If you do not want to die and are trying to win your greentext that hard just take a pod. It is what they are there for. And yes it will be a tight fit to get in the pods but really when was the last time you took a pod that didn't have 10 people lying on the floor to fit in?

wah wah wah i died on the shuttle and have to observe for 2 minutes until next round instead of staying buckled in and observing for 2 minutes until next round wah wah wah
kill everyone who whines about being collateral on a deadly shuttle

As a headmin that disagreed with the ruling, I stand by my dissenting comment:

Locking them behind the emag has dropped their purchase frequency to acceptable levels and I don't see the need to restrict them any further. I don't believe players or admins as a whole want this policy change, and I don't either.

I'm not sure why removing player agency would really even be considered like this. Its mind boggling, this game isn't conducive to being a 'hugbox'.

The problem with stuff like bad shuttle purchases aren't the shuttle purchases themselves nor some arbitrary policy regarding them, its bad actors that: take advantage of them, degrade the quality of a round, seek to ruin others fun, make things unhealthy, or abuse and overdo a gimmick.

Axe those behaviors, not content and whatever IC resolutions could come with that content.

I know I've said this before and I'm just parroting it again. Its grueling and tiring to see this sort of thing happen over and over again spurred on by behavioral problems of the few.

It is doubly disappointing to see it snuck under the communities nose in an obtuse manner.

It's weird that the host vote headmin seems more aligned with what admins and players think than the admin and players vote.

Putting chaotic but not inherently lethal behind an emag is a challenge, not a deterrent. Most of the shuttles generally just make the shuttle more easier to sabotage vs. making it lethal from the box. Only exception I can think of is arena where u actually filter the shuttle pop just by entering it.

People who need to win or have personal ooc goals for their character to live through the remaining 5 mins of the round have mitigations they can take (like using pods or just buying a normal shuttle before captain can get to it after getting hands on cash/emag). It’s more damaging to the round for engineering to test a SM setup that fucks up than for a captain to select a bad shuttle where you can see the bad shuttle for 5-10+ minutes to decide if you want to not hop in it (!) and if it actually kills you then you’re only out of the round for like <5 mins.

that said it should be considered kinda cringe if you manage to be able to buy those types of shuttles repeatedly, as with any other mischief gimmick. If you run these into the ground they lose their charm people in this thread are fighting for.

Not a big fan of the recent policy change. The only shuttles that directly kill people because they were ordered are the Asteroid, Monastery, and Arena. The first two literally land on you and the last one requires you to win a deathmatch to board. Disco Inferno and Hyperfractal are perfectly fine as long as nobody interacts with their one gimmick.

Further, these shuttles are already pretty rare and I'm worried that we'll never see them if captains/heads of staff aren't allowed to use confiscated emags to buy them.

Also, as I brought up in the peanut thread: you don't have to board the shuttle. If you really care about your character surviving to the end of the round, you can take the much safer escape pods.

If a grief shuttle arrives and you die on it, just top off your water and go to the bathroom and you'll barely be back before the next round starts.

I agree that, as mentioned, the emag lock has stopped this from happening all the goddamn time, and there are plenty of ways to prevent this from happening (or just avoid the shuttle outright) for players who are that worried about it.

I could see this being a ruling for the MRP servers, but LRP? No way.

If you die on a terrible shuttle you have no one to blame but yourself, go get on a pod if you don't want to risk dying on the shuttle.

Frankly, it's almost an overreaction to call it a grief shuttle, given that the game literally tells you whats coming and you're not forced to go to it. It'd be like if you were hanging out at the toxins test range then whined about being griefed when a bomb flies into, explodes and kills you. Death is the expectation on these shuttles, not the exception.

The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

Disco Inferno has pretty explicit "Die here" and "Do not die here" areas for those with strong desires to live. The difficulty of opting out of the danger/annoyance is much lower with Disco Inferno than it is with Flashbangs or the Rollerdome (unless you turn off instruments, too).

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

A couple of differences. Firstly, the shuttle is given a giant announcement on comms about what shuttle was purchased. There is ZERO surprise factor about it. And secondly, unlike someone dragging around a supermatter or tossing a lot of flash bangs, it's entirely opt in. If you choose to walk in to the Disco Inferno dance floor, you know damn well you're choosing funni chaos over arriving safely at centcomm. I brought this up in my appeal too - if you set up an open floor fusion reaction in atmos, and someone runs in to it willingly when they absolutely did not have to, were you really griefing them? Of course not.

If you really have to, make it an mrp/lrp split where lrp can buy whatever shuttle we want, while mrp has to stay serious business.

Mostly agree with Timber on this, I will note though I don't think locking dangerous shuttles behind emags had as much of an impact as they imply, rather I think the PR that came before that replacing disco inferno with the roller dome was the big changing point from grief via shuttle purchases being an issue to becoming a non-issue as all the other high risk shuttles were expensive enough that their purchase was a rarity.
Wesoda's first point is of particular importance here as well, when you leave the station you have a choice to take an escape pod or take the shuttle, the shuttle which can be identified from point of sale at least 5 minutes before the shuttle even arrives as the dock. Mothblocks counterpoint to this fails to recognize the warning time and the choices players are presented with. SM shards, flashbangs and people breaking escalation don't come with 5 minute warning timers and safe alternative options. Better comparisons would be players making dangerous things on the station and inviting people to join, e.g. a rage cage or a amputation arcade machine, players are not caught off guard by them and alternate safer options (holodeck, regular arcade machines) exist, yet players can still choose to walk on the hazardous side if they so choose.

There seems to be some minor confusion on the policy that we can clarify at the very least.
Non-antags are not completely, irrevocably banned for purchasing griefy shuttles.

Situations where you are unlikely to be bowinked for purchasing a griefy shuttle as a non-antag:

- If most of the crew approve of you purchasing a shuttle like Disco Inferno or other griefy shuttles, that's completely fine.
- If you buy a griefy shuttle and make efforts to prevent a disaster from occurring, such as preventing people from setting Disco Inferno alight, that's fine in most circumstances.

Situations where you may end up being bwoinked for your shuttle choice as a non-antag:

- There is a situation such as meteors in which most or all of the pods have been destroyed and no effort is made to prevent grief when the shuttle actually arrives / leaves.
- Most of the crew disproves you purchasing the shuttle, and you are a position with meta-protections (such as captain or the head of security), and you abuse them to be immune to IC repercussions .
- "...when the shuttles explicitly targeted for antagonistic behavior (emag-locked shuttles) leads to the grief they are designed to cause."

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm - "...when the shuttles explicitly targeted for antagonistic behavior (emag-locked shuttles) leads to the grief they are designed to cause."

This is the point of contention, I think.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm Non-antags are not completely, irrevocably banned for purchasing griefy shuttles.

...

- There is a situation such as meteors in which most or all of the pods have been destroyed and no effort is made to prevent grief when the shuttle actually arrives / leaves.
- Most of the crew disproves you purchasing the shuttle, and you are a position with meta-protections (such as captain or the head of security), and you abuse them to be immune to IC repercussions .
- "...when the shuttles explicitly targeted for antagonistic behavior (emag-locked shuttles) leads to the grief they are designed to cause."

I'm not sure I follow.

- Ordering a dangerously shitty shuttle with the pods not intact was already against the old rules. Furthermore, it is such a rare occurrence that I can't imagine it being a serious consideration in this ruling.
- The captain previously (and still presumably) did not have metaprotections after ordering a shuttle nobody wanted, and doing that to cause conflict then robust your lynch mob was already Bad Escalation Bwoink times, at least as I understood, the same as any other killbaiting.

So the only difference is "When an emag shuttle does its thing (Disco Inferno ignites, the Pubby Chapel takes out a quarter of the station and nobody can actually leave with it, etc.)" conditions, right?

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:43 pm

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

Disco Inferno has pretty explicit "Die here" and "Do not die here" areas for those with strong desires to live. The difficulty of opting out of the danger/annoyance is much lower with Disco Inferno than it is with Flashbangs or the Rollerdome (unless you turn off instruments, too).

► Show Spoiler

We'll set aside "Nonantags, just don't bring a fire aboard the Disco Inferno shuttle" as an argument (since I don't believe we accept similar arguments for bringing a supermatter shard crate, locked or unlocked, and expecting other people not to figure out a way to open it)

but I also think bringing a locked SM shard crate for postround grief should be fine, and if a CE/Captain ID or an emag pops it open, that's not really your fault, that's on the person who opened it.

This is what I was thinking as well.

You can't opt out of someone throwing a flashbang at you, you can opt to not stand in a dangerous area or take a safer alternative. Player actions and static environments are completely separate things. Just because an environment gives unique opportunities to grief does not mean someone can not take measures to avoid or prepare for it. Getting thrown into a random SM shard is entirely different.

If the only understanding of these shuttles being grief is that they can become a deathtrap, that's missing or ignoring the entire in-between: ones behavior that actually makes them into a deathtrap.

• Disco does not combust because it FEELS like it.
• Hyperfractual does not just start pulling people into the supermatter because it can.
• Asteroid and Monastery do not just appear without any sort of warning and delete people.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather be handling the poor behaviors that take advantage of these sorts of situations by non-antags. Unless there is something wrong with giving antags an opportunity to take advantage of?

---

- "...when the shuttles explicitly targeted for antagonistic behavior (emag-locked shuttles) leads to the grief they are designed to cause."

Regarding this: If you really want to get into it, the appeal that spurred this all on, an antag ignited a plasma statue (stated in d-chat they were attempting to get ore), melting down the Disco Inferno shuttle.

• Is that the shuttles fault?
• Is that the buyers fault?
• Does it matter that an antag caused that roundend grief when someone else bought the shuttle (intentionally or otherwise it does not matter)?
• Are we really going to encourage holding the buyer responsible for the actions of an antag?

I like the arena shuttle for being different. So I'm gonna have to agree with public opinion, that i'd rather not get a day ban for each person who died in the arena.

If the shuttle has a higher-case of death then normal, and pods are functional. Don't get on it!

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

I can’t really construct a logical argument as to why shuttles are different from just normal grief. All I can say is that grief is only grief if it causes, well, grief. It seems like the majority of people don’t take issue with this, so what’s the point of the rule? At the end of the day rules are only there to ensure a better playing experience. The occasional dangerous shuttle seems to be appreciated and improve that experience. Why not let people have their fun, so long as they don’t do it too often?

Ofc, Im basing this off the results of the forum poll and turnout in this thread. This seems like a great candidate for a server poll.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

All of the examples you gave, people dislike happening. The disco infernal shuttle being bought, people like happening.
In one case it's grief, and in another case, it's silly and fun.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm - Most of the crew disproves you purchasing the shuttle, and you are a position with meta-protections (such as captain or the head of security), and you abuse them to be immune to IC repercussions .

There is no meta-protection against lynching a Captain for purchasing a crappy shuttle. This has been precedent for years.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm Situations where you are unlikely to be bowinked for purchasing a griefy shuttle as a non-antag:

- If most of the crew approve of you purchasing a shuttle like Disco Inferno or other griefy shuttles, that's completely fine.
- If you buy a griefy shuttle and make efforts to prevent a disaster from occurring, such as preventing people from setting Disco Inferno alight, that's fine in most circumstances.

Situations where you may end up being bwoinked for your shuttle choice as a non-antag:

- There is a situation such as meteors in which most or all of the pods have been destroyed and no effort is made to prevent grief when the shuttle actually arrives / leaves.
- Most of the crew disproves you purchasing the shuttle, and you are a position with meta-protections (such as captain or the head of security), and you abuse them to be immune to IC repercussions .
- "...when the shuttles explicitly targeted for antagonistic behavior (emag-locked shuttles) leads to the grief they are designed to cause."

I mean this with all sincerity that making this as vague and up to admin discretion as possibly only makes this come off as potential banbait given circumstances that you will need to potentially argue whether it was out of your hands or not, or what level of good faith/bad faith to which this set of circumstances occurred.

When you muddy policy like this, I think that's really a half-arsed attempt to prevent people from doing the thing without fully committing to removing that as an option, like what has happened here. You should just ban the practice altogether rather than letting people foolishly walk themselves into a ban just because you left some room where it is permissible. The intent is clear that nonantagonists shouldn't be doing this now that it is locked behind antagonist items and is potentially dangerous. Which is an entirely fine stance, and I think entirely consistent with how a lot of other antagonist based mechanics are handled (uplinks, old contractor, etc.) but one you should commit to fully.

This isn't, as well, comparable to delivering dangerous items onto the shuttle, either. Shuttles are announced, and preparations can be made to mitigate the damage of a dangerous shuttle. Things like supermatter shards are often in discreet crates that can be pulled onto the shuttle before anyone is the wiser, and atmos tanks/TTVs/canisters are not too dissimilar. One is overt and has headroom for response. The other can be so covert the damage is done before you know what is even happening.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm -snip-

More complicated policy specifics for players to find out after they're bwoinked, what were you two thinking?

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 1:03 pm I believe this ruling didn't get it''s fair share in court due to being part of a ban appeal rather than a policy thread.

Dangerous shuttles are fun, and shuttles are opt-in anyway since you can always use escape pods. And since the emag change, we barely see the dangerous shuttles anymore, getting on the disco inferno even though I know I'm going to die while listening to Carameldansen is fun.

Monastery shuttle has never worked since its inception, but keep going off about how it's "FUN" I guess.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

The shuttle purchase is known by the whole crew ahead of time. You get an announcement well in advance, and you can examine shuttle timer monitors to learn what shuttle it is if you missed it. Most maps have pods you can take to avoid the whole mess (and you could also toss on a beacon and wait until the last second before round end to teleport there).

Actual shuttle grief is a direct action against other players, usually with no particular extra warning beyond normal for the method used. Buying a lethal shuttle is very passive, and most of them are not lethal without some additional action from others. We also have a rule that calling such a shuttle marks you as valid, and the announcement even broadcasts your name.

Most lethal shuttles are already locked behind an emag, I don't think it's the end of the world if a captain decides to order the hyperfractal on the rare occurrence he manages to find one.

Buying a dangerous shuttle is funny, shooting people on the shuttle isn't funny.


Blowing the shuttle up with a bomb right before it arrives at centcom is EXTREMELY funny but only because everyone knows you fucked up your timing and are about to be banned

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:54 pm Buying a dangerous shuttle is funny, shooting people on the shuttle isn't funny.

Blowing the shuttle up with a bomb right before it arrives at centcom is EXTREMELY funny but only because everyone knows you fucked up your timing and are about to be banned

Inhumanly based and correct take

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

It makes more sense when framed this way: Centcom sends a flaming metal deathtrap as your "emergency shuttle," and the crew boards. We're all in it together, for whatever particular flavor of disaster the shuttle takes. Everyone is subjected to it equally, and there is no particular individual griefing everybody. It's just the ride you bought.

Suppose you're going on a car trip with several friends. You rent a nice car, and look forward to a smooth trip -- but one of your friends decides to blast an airhorn nonstop throughout. This is the flashbang guy. Another fella purposely eats 10 cans of beans and farts nonstop throughout the journey, subjecting everyone to a miserable experience. This is the supermatter guy. They spoiled an otherwise peaceful journey.

But now suppose you rent a terrible car. A real clunker. No AC, scuffed radio, a terrible grinding sound from the engine, and it breaks down 5 times before you reach the destination. Although the trip may be just as miserable as in the previous case, hopefully you would agree it's quite different. You aren't the one causing the issues, it's the car. And you're suffering just as much as everyone else. You didn't spoil the journey except in the most indirect sense - it was the car.

The part where this analogy falls short is that many people prefer a chaotic death-trap of a shuttle over a calm 3 minute snoozefest. As long as everyone burns equally, it's just a bit of fun. I would argue captains are well within their rights to make these sorts of decisions, even without a vote, as they are considered a representative of the crew and entrusted with the power to make decisions that they think will be fun. I don't think captains order these shuttles to grief like the flashbang and supermatter guy; they order them because they think it'll be funny, fun - a bit of excitement. And often they're right.

carshalash wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:58 am

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 1:03 pm I believe this ruling didn't get it''s fair share in court due to being part of a ban appeal rather than a policy thread.

Dangerous shuttles are fun, and shuttles are opt-in anyway since you can always use escape pods. And since the emag change, we barely see the dangerous shuttles anymore, getting on the disco inferno even though I know I'm going to die while listening to Carameldansen is fun.

Monastery shuttle has never worked since its inception, but keep going off about how it's "FUN" I guess.

>A fucking megastructure larger than many departments appears out of hyperspace, instantly vaporising everyone who either don't know what it is or didn't read the shuttle name
>It fuses horrifically with the station and turns into a disgusting amalgamation of unrelated departments
>Flies off with pieces of the station still attached, having casually killed like half the crew
I'm sorry you were born without the ability to have fun but the FORTRESS MONASTERY MK.II is the best shuttle

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:02 pm Firstly, the shuttle is given a giant announcement on comms about what shuttle was purchased. There is ZERO surprise factor about it.

This only applies to people who are connected when the shuttle is called.

If you really have to, make it an mrp/lrp split where lrp can buy whatever shuttle we want, while mrp has to stay serious business.

We really need to stop thinking about it in these terms. Far too many people on LRP just want rules changes to be done on MRP so they don't have to deal with it.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Buying a dangerous shuttle is funny, shooting people on the shuttle isn't funny.

I'm not really sure why so many people who play this game find literally anything that annoys other people to be the height of comedy. It can be funny - hell, anything can - but most of the time it just ends up ruining someone's round or getting people killed for dumbass reasons.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:02 pmIf you really have to, make it an mrp/lrp split where lrp can buy whatever shuttle we want, while mrp has to stay serious business.

We really need to stop thinking about it in these terms. Far too many people on LRP just want rules changes to be done on MRP so they don't have to deal with it.

Err, yes? The entire point of LRP and MRP is MRP players want RP to be a curated experience with extra rules to create a more streamlined and predictable experience, while LRP is for players who want a more organic environment and don't want admins sniffing through our bags to make sure we dont have anything more lethal than a screwdriver. If there is any rule that should definitely be split between the two it's this one.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:52 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:02 pmIf you really have to, make it an mrp/lrp split where lrp can buy whatever shuttle we want, while mrp has to stay serious business.

We really need to stop thinking about it in these terms. Far too many people on LRP just want rules changes to be done on MRP so they don't have to deal with it.

Err, yes? The entire point of LRP and MRP is MRP players want RP to be a curated experience with extra rules to create a more streamlined and predictable experience, while LRP is for players who want a more organic environment and don't want admins sniffing through our bags to make sure we dont have anything more lethal than a screwdriver. If there is any rule that should definitely be split between the two it's this one.

Right, but there are far too many instances where the rule differences can have literally nothing to do with RP, but the LRP players want them put on MRP because it won't affect them.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 5:18 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:52 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:02 pmIf you really have to, make it an mrp/lrp split where lrp can buy whatever shuttle we want, while mrp has to stay serious business.

We really need to stop thinking about it in these terms. Far too many people on LRP just want rules changes to be done on MRP so they don't have to deal with it.

Err, yes? The entire point of LRP and MRP is MRP players want RP to be a curated experience with extra rules to create a more streamlined and predictable experience, while LRP is for players who want a more organic environment and don't want admins sniffing through our bags to make sure we dont have anything more lethal than a screwdriver. If there is any rule that should definitely be split between the two it's this one.

Right, but there are far too many instances where the rule differences can have literally nothing to do with RP, but the LRP players want them put on MRP because it won't affect them.

How does this NOT involve RP? Supposing that this rule was implemented for MRP, but not for LRP, it would mean MRP Captains are expected to be super serious by-the-books NT officials, in line with the established lore and expected gameplay decisions, and can't buy the funny emag shuttles because it's not what a NT Captain would do because it would put the crew at risk.

Meanwhile LRP Captains can be LRP and say "Hey guys, we're all gonna cook to death while listening to Caramelldansen, and maybe one or two of you will make it to Centcomm" and we can actually enjoy the game.

So, again, please explain how this does NOT involve RP.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 5:18 am Right, but there are far too many instances where the rule differences can have literally nothing to do with RP, but the LRP players want them put on MRP because it won't affect them.

That seems like something that should be brought up when there's not a clear RP issue at hand (how tight of a leash CentCom keeps, Captain/ActingCap expectations, what constitutes reasonable behavior/respect for the sanctity of life, etc.)

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Buying a dangerous shuttle is funny, shooting people on the shuttle isn't funny.

I'm not really sure why so many people who play this game find literally anything that annoys other people to be the height of comedy. It can be funny - hell, anything can - but most of the time it just ends up ruining someone's round or getting people killed for dumbass reasons.

What do you find entertaining and funny in ss13, Vekter?

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 8:09 pm The argument is not consistent with any other way near end of round grief is treated. You are not allowed to bring a supermatter onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to throw a bunch of flashbangs onto the shuttle, you are not allowed to ignore escalation on the shuttle. What is the difference between all of these and buying a shuttle that literally everyone knows will kill everyone?

if I go onto the emergency shuttle and someone drags a supermatter shard, I die because of something completely out of my control because someone chose to be an asshole and make a space that was previously safe un-safe. The expectation of safety was there, and then that expectation was violated by an asshole with a supermatter shard.

if I go onto the Murder Death Kill shuttle, I die because I made a decision to go onto the Murder Death Kill shuttle. The expectation of safety was not there, therefore the expectation of safety couldn't be violated.

If the shuttle is the Murder Death Kill shuttle, I can still:
1. Go to the escape pods.
2. Go to Lavaland/below the station on Icebox.
3. Stay on the station.

I don't have to board the Murder Death Kill shuttle.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am I'm not really sure why so many people who play this game find literally anything that annoys other people to be the height of comedy. It can be funny - hell, anything can - but most of the time it just ends up ruining someone's round or getting people killed for dumbass reasons.

Why does dying on the shuttle ruin that someone's round? Is that the playerbase you're aiming policy changes around, not the playerbase you actually have?

Tearling wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:16 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am I'm not really sure why so many people who play this game find literally anything that annoys other people to be the height of comedy. It can be funny - hell, anything can - but most of the time it just ends up ruining someone's round or getting people killed for dumbass reasons.

Why does dying on the shuttle ruin that someone's round? Is that the playerbase you're aiming policy changes around, not the playerbase you actually have?

Nothing ruins a good round like getting murdered by something extremely stupid right at the end.

How does that ruin your round? You are literally just sitting in front of your computer waiting for the round to end either way. If I was more cynical I'd suggest you're a gigantic hypocrite and can't stand mechanically, technically, losing in a game that's supposed to be primarily about roleplay.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:29 pm Nothing ruins a good round like getting murdered by something extremely stupid right at the end.

On the contrary, dying to something extremely stupid at the very end of a good round makes for an excellent punchline.

I know this comes up like every other week but I do seek to remind people that "fun" is not an objective measure and what is fun for you might not be fun for others.

For every person who finds it very funny to be murdered on the shuttle there will be someone who prefers to try and stay alive at any cost even if the round is going to end in 30 seconds.

Neither person is "wrong" or anything, it's just different points of view.

Personally, I think buying risky shuttles (like the Lepton Violet/Scrapheap Challenge/etc.) can be funny in that "on the cusp of disaster" aspect but that straight up "this shuttle will murder you and everyone you love" ones are just a bit much for non-antagonist FNR usage

Arianya wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 8:42 am I know this comes up like every other week but I do seek to remind people that "fun" is not an objective measure and what is fun for you might not be fun for others.

For every person who finds it very funny to be murdered on the shuttle there will be someone who prefers to try and stay alive at any cost even if the round is going to end in 30 seconds.

Looks to me that that’s not true. For every 1 person who minds there’s almost 3 who don’t.

Notoriously representative forum polls, which is why we do headmin elections via them :p

Arianya wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 8:42 amFor every person who finds it very funny to be murdered on the shuttle there will be someone who prefers to try and stay alive at any cost even if the round is going to end in 30 seconds.

Why wouldn't this person just take a pod?

Arianya wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 1:15 pm Notoriously representative forum polls, which is why we do headmin elections via them :p

It at least shows us we should do an in game poll to get a better idea.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:29 pm

Tearling wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:16 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:02 am I'm not really sure why so many people who play this game find literally anything that annoys other people to be the height of comedy. It can be funny - hell, anything can - but most of the time it just ends up ruining someone's round or getting people killed for dumbass reasons.

Why does dying on the shuttle ruin that someone's round? Is that the playerbase you're aiming policy changes around, not the playerbase you actually have?

Nothing ruins a good round like getting murdered by something extremely stupid right at the end.

Please understand that you're speaking on behalf of a playerbase you're not apart of (you don't play the game) that likely disagrees with you (If the poll is anything to go by.)
Maybe you're right when someone is killed by something they had no control of, but in terms of shuttles, it seems like around 70% people disagree with you. (Though, I would like to see this poll in game for a more accurate number)

Arianya wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 1:15 pm Notoriously representative forum polls, which is why we do headmin elections via them :p

Already advocated for a player vote and would happily live with the results of one. At the end of the day it isn’t a huge deal what the outcome is : ), only makes sense to go with the majority

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 1:20 pm

Arianya wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 8:42 amFor every person who finds it very funny to be murdered on the shuttle there will be someone who prefers to try and stay alive at any cost even if the round is going to end in 30 seconds.

Why wouldn't this person just take a pod?

A variety of reasons:

a) They latejoined/weren't paying attention and didn't see the shuttle purchase
b) Pods may be destroyed/unreachable/non-livable without a space suit (heavy station damage/meteors/etc.)
c) Roleplaying-wise, most people would expect to evacuate by the shuttle rather than pods - its the one that goes to Centcomm after all.

And from a more OOC point of view - the shuttle is the main way to leave the station at the end of a round - the fact that pods exist shouldn't really negate its safety in the same way we shouldn't destroy the station just because lavaland exists for people who don't want to die.