/tg/Station 13

Before you stands a miner.

He is wearing drake armour. He is carrying a lava staff and a hierophant club. He has a cursed heart, a power miner, a memento mori, and further assorted lavaland loot.

At what point does bringing your lavaland goodies back to the station cross the line into Rule 12 levels of excessive powergaming? Discuss.

Rule 12 is not a rule against powergaming, its a rule against "winning" at the expense of everyone's enjoyment. The example you've provided is not "winning" at others expense and is thus not covered by rule 12, please see precedent 1 of rule 12 for what you are describing. If you concern is miners getting loot to go antag hunting alongside security then this is already enforceable under rule 12, but this is not the impression your example is giving me.

The majority of Mining loot isn't necessarily useful for lavaland. So I don't blame miners who have a fun weapon and are eager to use it on station on the villains. Yet at the same time unless the round is in an apocalyptic state. Like Zombies, Majority cult, Xenos, or spiders. It's a bit too much for our now weakened round start antags. It's just a case by case basis thing, and I'd prefer admins push buttons to give the miner a challenge if they see one curb stomping the weak thieves and heretics.

Gathering every piece of lavaland loot doesn’t really have any useful purpose other than using it to "win" though. Even if you aren’t preemptively checking every dark corner for an antag, when someone continuously brings lavaland loot up to the station they really only have two things they can use all that for.

Either they see someone doing antag things and go "Oh no, an antag right in front of me, but I have so much gear, I guess I just have to kill them now" or they get a midround antag and go "Oh no, I am an antag, but I have so much gear, I guess I have to choose violence".

Other kinds of powergaming like carrying around vast quantities of medical supplies have positive to neutral uses like saving lives or being able to heal yourself. There is no particular reason to go around wearing every piece of lavaland gear except that you are planning in using it for combat.

This issue entirely fits within the main text of Rule 12.

"The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying" I have never come across a full gamer gear miner who is doing anything roleplaying related with their gear. Nobody is every showing it off to people, making a cool lavaland museum, or performing entertaining antics, merely carrying it on their person ready to kill anyone they find being valid at a moments notice.

"Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others" anyone encountering a miner with this level of gear prepared can only reasonably win if they have themselves already prepared very specific counters such as carrying an elance or bomb. This both fits the concept of play-to-win where the miner has preemptively kitted themself out to counter as many ways to fight them as possible, and ruining the purpose of the game by intentionally forcing anyone who might be victimised by them to abandon the sandbox and constantly think about preparing and carrying hyper specific meta weapons to counter the miner if they want to stay in the round.

I love when miners get all the mining loot 14 minutes into the round, never actually contribute resources to the station and just run around the station valid hunting or murder boning when they are a antag. Nothing of value would be lost if mining loot would just be deleted.

So are you expecting them to take it off before returning to station? Keep it only on lavaland? What's your proposed solution to this "issue"? Rule 12 ban every miner who dares set foot on the station? The code direction is quite heavily pulling miners to go onto the station and interact with it more.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:19 am So are you expecting them to take it off before returning to station? Keep it only on lavaland? What's your proposed solution to this "issue"? Rule 12 ban every miner who dares set foot on the station? The code direction is quite heavily pulling miners to go onto the station and interact with it more.

• Show some restraint and not religiously collect every piece of loot to bring onto the station
• Do something creative with the loot like make a lavaland museum
• Just leave it behind on lavaland instead of carrying it around everywhere
• Many more things that aren't speedrun the megafauna then spend the rest of the round wearing every piece of loot

We already have a well understood expectation that toxins players leave their toys in the playroom, I don't think it's overly burdensome for miners to behave likewise

Yet we allow paramedics to powergame to their hearts content because it's part of their job, we allow chemists to do the same because once more- it's part of their job. I've never seen a toxins player get in trouble for walking around with a ttv unless it blows up either AND we still have assistants running around with stun batons so why are we drawing this line on miners?

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:01 pm We already have a well understood expectation that toxins players leave their toys in the playroom, I don't think it's overly burdensome for miners to behave likewise

The expectation for all job content is they don't use it to grief. Scientists are well within their right to use anything from toxins if it doesn't overkill a department or kill innocent crew. Same as it is with chem as it is with atmos as it is with cargo.

Restrictions on miner loot should be a code change, not a policy change.

I have never seen a miner walking around the station with their dumb uninspired fantasy gear contribute anything to the round. I don't this would need to be a separate policy though, or limited to miners. If someone doesn't interact with the round significantly other than antag hunting or antagging, then that's kinda a violation of rule 1 and 12, and maybe admins could include rule 0 for them simply being unenjoyable people.

Maybe there could be an addition to the rules or guideline where if someone obtains a bunch of gear that could be deemed powergaming, then they are in threat of violating rule 12 if they use the tools to be a vigilante. The line for what is deemed powergaming is kinda fuzzy and arbitrary, though it could be used based on context, where if it's something loud like nukies, then it could be relaxed a lot more. Really if someone is spending time to make gaming gear and the perceived threat of the antagonists does not scale, then the proceed to use it against said antagonists, that's when it's crossing the line.

As for someone hoping they would roll antag after preparing gear, that's a bit harder to prove, but I guess if someone barely interacts with people in a positive or interesting manner, then that would be more obvious.

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kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:48 pm Yet we allow paramedics to powergame to their hearts content because it's part of their job, we allow chemists to do the same because once more- it's part of their job. I've never seen a toxins player get in trouble for walking around with a ttv unless it blows up either AND we still have assistants running around with stun batons so why are we drawing this line on miners?

Have you read rule 12?

If what someone is doing isn't something I find healthy for a round and it's interactions or is getting out of hand and tipping the scales too much, they hear from me. Every time. And that is without considering rule 12.

Once upon a time the rules said:

tl;dr
“I don’t want to read this!”


There’s a lot here, but the gist of the rules is roleplay takes priority. Don’t murder just for fun if you’re not antag. Don’t metagame. Don’t play to win. Don’t be a jerk OOCly. If you don’t understand what those words mean or you need more detail, read on!

At one point and time there were roleplay rules in the standard rules too.

Rule 12 at least brought back some of that and especially the play to win portion:

This is a sandbox roleplaying game

The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules.

Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists. It is not empowering yourself to achieve personal goals, or taking measures to survive the shift
Taking a few items beyond what you need to do your job is usually fine, especially if they're not needed by anyone else. Examples of okay items to take include taking a medkit from the public Medbay lobby or the insulated gloves from tech storage. Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.
Genuine conflict with other players does not ruin the purpose of the game. Player conflicts will continue to be administrated in line with Escalation Rules.

This isn't some new concept, it just got lost for a while.

I have no qualms regards tackling this, nor do many others.

The line is NOT drawn with miners, but quite a few miner play styles are certainly included.

If someone is doing their best to bypass as much roleplay (interaction) as possible, I will personally invite them to experience a single player private server instead where may be able to have that experience without interlopers getting in the way.

There is a difference between working to accomplish goals, and doing everything possible to get what is wanted at the expense of others and their experiences without a shred of care.

There is a difference between playing to get your win condition period others be damned, and playing to just be good at your job.

If someone is unable to play in a way where they might just lose, its a big hmmm. Having every bit of mining gear is something to consider there.

zxaber wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:30 pm

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:01 pm We already have a well understood expectation that toxins players leave their toys in the playroom, I don't think it's overly burdensome for miners to behave likewise

The expectation for all job content is they don't use it to grief. Scientists are well within their right to use anything from toxins if it doesn't overkill a department or kill innocent crew. Same as it is with chem as it is with atmos as it is with cargo.

Restrictions on miner loot should be a code change, not a policy change.

This is how I feel in the end truthfully.

Mostly because well: how would this be enforced with a certain degree of accuracy in order to be a solid process? Would every case meet it?

An option could be like, ghost spawner areas are blocked off somehow until one spawns.

Or someone could just remove gamer loot from lavaland in general.

I also don't care what the original intentions for lavaland were when it was made, the coder is gone. At that time it provided much more free loot and antag status than it does now.

Why this loot is freely available even when nothing has spawned to defend it is so comically out my grasp to understand that all I can do is label it as asinine.

The loot game in general isn't difficult, there isn't much pick and choose either. What reason is there to NOT grab everything you can?

Have you read rule 12?

If what someone is doing isn't something I find healthy for a round and it's interactions or is getting out of hand and tipping the scales too much, they hear from me. Every time. And that is without considering rule 12.

I'm glad you do this but you cannot compare your mrp enforcement to that on LRP. The situation I described is what occurs on LRP.

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:57 am Before you stands a miner.

He is wearing drake armour. He is carrying a lava staff and a hierophant club. He has a cursed heart, a power miner, a memento mori, and further assorted lavaland loot.

At what point does bringing your lavaland goodies back to the station cross the line into Rule 12 levels of excessive powergaming? Discuss.

The point at which they deliberately start hunting antagonists to win the round.
Restricting miners being able to go after gamer loot risks a lot of miners abandoning the profession entirely, because without the gamer loot, it's just 'rock/monster hitting with little to no RP simulator' that occasionally gets interrupted by an ash storm.
Perhaps this is a code issue and not a rules issue.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:05 pm

Have you read rule 12?

If what someone is doing isn't something I find healthy for a round and it's interactions or is getting out of hand and tipping the scales too much, they hear from me. Every time. And that is without considering rule 12.

I'm glad you do this but you cannot compare your mrp enforcement to that on LRP. The situation I described is what occurs on LRP.

I have and will continue to do this on LRP servers. I did it before my time on TG, and I will do it after my time on TG.

It being LRP does not change nor restrict people being able to do that. Admins can intervene regardless of the RP level, if they want to.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:00 pm

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:05 pm

Have you read rule 12?

If what someone is doing isn't something I find healthy for a round and it's interactions or is getting out of hand and tipping the scales too much, they hear from me. Every time. And that is without considering rule 12.

I'm glad you do this but you cannot compare your mrp enforcement to that on LRP. The situation I described is what occurs on LRP.

I have and will continue to do this on LRP servers. I did it before my time on TG, and I will do it after my time on TG.

It being LRP does not change nor restrict people being able to do that. Admins can intervene regardless of the RP level, if they want to.

You have very few rounds on lrp in comparison to MRP.

In reality, LRP enforcement is very different when it comes to this kind of thing.

And you're right! Admins fully /can/ but they don't. So the situation I described with all these other powergamers running around exists and it feels weird to punish miners for doing their jobs but not them.

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:57 am At what point does bringing your lavaland goodies back to the station cross the line into Rule 12 levels of excessive powergaming? Discuss.

When you validhunt with it (or start trouble/selfantag so that you can Win with your Gamer Gear)

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:03 pm

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:00 pm

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:05 pm

Have you read rule 12?

If what someone is doing isn't something I find healthy for a round and it's interactions or is getting out of hand and tipping the scales too much, they hear from me. Every time. And that is without considering rule 12.

I'm glad you do this but you cannot compare your mrp enforcement to that on LRP. The situation I described is what occurs on LRP.

I have and will continue to do this on LRP servers. I did it before my time on TG, and I will do it after my time on TG.

It being LRP does not change nor restrict people being able to do that. Admins can intervene regardless of the RP level, if they want to.

You have very few rounds on lrp in comparison to MRP.

In reality, LRP enforcement is very different when it comes to this kind of thing.

And you're right! Admins fully /can/ but they don't. So the situation I described with all these other powergamers running around exists and it feels weird to punish miners for doing their jobs but not them.

You are right about that, I have low TG LRP time, but a lot of LRP time on other servers (at least when there were more of them). I'm hoping to change that here soon.

I'd hope we aren't punishing them for doing their jobs, but it is a bit hazy to look at what it means to be doing their job well, and fitting that mold we'd rather break based just on gear alone, right?

They are super combat orientated, mining ore almost becomes a secondary feature for them. I've seen people play miner in the past and not collect or mine even one piece of ore.

The question with this thread is when it becomes a problem on station...

Are they using it to dunk antags on station? Are they using it to bypass interactions on station? To be 'the main character' on station? That sort of thing, which is really just restating what I did earlier. I hate to look at this through that 'lenses of intentions' sort of thing like so many other situations but... Yeah. I hope that clears up that I'm not trying to toss them into the powergaming bin.

what if i'm bringing it on station so that it can go into the library displays because IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM

I agree with others, a huge aspect is how and what they use their gear for. A large focus of mining is getting cool gear, I think it’d be pretty lame to make it against the rules to just have that stuff.

In fact with time I’ve actually come to like miners place on the station. As an assassination target they are a big gamble - you can leave them to their own devices and hope they die, but this runs the risk of them returning as a much stronger threat. Or you can try and proactively deal with them and potentially sacrifice some stealth or prep. Either way it’s a very unique role to deal with and I think it’d be pretty lame to cripple them with policy.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:23 am

Thunder11 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:57 am At what point does bringing your lavaland goodies back to the station cross the line into Rule 12 levels of excessive powergaming? Discuss.

When you validhunt with it (or start trouble/selfantag so that you can Win with your Gamer Gear)

^
It would be a shame to hinder the rewards you get for pretty much being a slave to the station

Miners typically trivialize Blobs, for one. Outside of that, I don't really buy the powergaming argument. What piece of lavaland loot would you say is actually powergaming?

Lavaland itself isn't balanced against Station content to the point that you could argue they're two separate games and most of the loot, which was already nerfed with the addition of chest keys, is considered useless by miners. This is a code problem, not a policy problem.

I really think it would be bad policy for players to get bwoinked simply for being good at their job.

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:28 am What piece of lavaland loot would you say is actually powergaming?

None, its job related content related to their job, and its fun content for it, which only matters for RP. Powergaming is the wrong word here, but the OP probably was trying to match it to rule 12 specifically.

This is a question aimed at everything overall.

Powergaming is a roleplay concept only.

Playing to win as an attitude and gameplay style is an overall concept.

Blame the rules bloat where we can't just ask if something meets a few criteria easily and leave it at that.

I'm not surprised someone would get the two of them confused.

The fireball wand from Drake was exceedingly busted in the sense of being able to delete even the strongest solo antags who dared to look at you funny, let alone the poor members of security or random engineers and MDs.

Related, fireball wands from Lavaland are no longer a thing because people couldn't be trusted with them, they were stupidly overpowered, and they had a boring identity as loot (literally just wizard stuff)

Yeah its safe to say the the problem items are pretty much (mostly) long gone.

Has there been a decision on whether or not this situation applies to rule 12?

If so, to what extent would it be reasonable? What would be unreasonable?

I think the thread was basically resolved at the point one of the 3 authors of Rule 12 chimed in on it.

NamelessFairy wrote:Rule 12 is not a rule against powergaming, its a rule against "winning" at the expense of everyone's enjoyment. The example you've provided is not "winning" at others expense and is thus not covered by rule 12, please see precedent 1 of rule 12 for what you are describing. If you concern is miners getting loot to go antag hunting alongside security then this is already enforceable under rule 12, but this is not the impression your example is giving me.

Rule 12 is not a rule on excessive powergaming. It is not RP Rule 8. It is a rule against playing-to-win, where such playstyles actively ruin other people's RP fun.

Which means if you play-to-win and create a shit ton of awesome RP in the process, you're good. Back when I played, I would fall HEAVILY under this category. I played-to-win super hard and it's a wonder if I was never noted or banned for it, but I did my best to create amazing RP moments in the process. Over my ~460 living hours I have something like 0.21 deaths per hour. I'd die maybe once every couple of shifts, if that. I gamered hard.

In the hypothetical from the OP, what loot the miner has is a bit of a red herring. If they take their loot and then start a campaign of validhunting every antag they can possibly find, round removing them systematically - We have a problem. And the problem isn't the loot, but the actions. If they take their loot and turn it into something interesting, like selling their services as a bodyguard, they're creating RP.

The proposed code solution to this issue is firewalling lavaland and station and keeping lavaland loot for lavaland use.

Unlikely to ever be im plemented in the near term though as it requires major changes to mechs

Miners accumulating the loot and gear they're rewarded with as part of their job content doesn't constitute a breach of rule 12 - having fun and getting rewards for playing the job you signed up for is not playing to win in a way that deleteriously impacts the game for others. A play pattern that is negative however is using that gear to proactively and commonly hunt for antagonists with the goal of removing them from the round and "winning" with your inflated loot sourced power level - alternatively, having the loot on you isn't a rule 12 issue, using it to be shitty and make the game less fun for everyone can be.

Spook: Concur With Above
San: Concur With Above
Rave: Agree With Above