/tg/Station 13

When a traitor takes a final objective, they can no longer take any more objectives and are automatically awarded greentext. Most final objectives are usually station destruction or mass panic/mayhem, so it would make sense that (on MRP) traitors would be allowed to do whatever they want now that they've reached their final objective.

It's similar to heretic ascension or AI going delta, since their goals are usually focused on causing as much death as possible. Final objectives are still an optional choice for traitors to take and the game does not force traitors to take a final objective, it's up to the traitor player if they want to go down this route.

tl;dr this post is proposing that on the "Is murderbone allowed with this role?", traitors gain a conditional 'Yes, but only if they've taken a final objective'

I agree with this idea

I'd probably make it "in the process of/after completion of, their final objective"

It's a little wordy, but it makes sure that it's like, "Okay I've done my Romerol it's time to kill for it" or any other variation, instead of just "I sure have accepted this Final Objective, time to ignore it and DEsword to victory."

But otherwise I like the idea.

i thought this was already the case and from my experience we have been enforcing it as such (that traitors can murderbone with their final objective)

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:46 am i thought this was already the case and from my experience we have been enforcing it as such (that traitors can murderbone with their final objective)

It is not, they have very loosened escalation rules but no full MRP Permission,and they should anyway, final objectives are meant to end the round, it makes zero sense for traitors having to hold back by that point

My personal two cents is while I think very relaxed escalation makes sense (killing people to spread romerol, for example) allowing full murderbone will just see traitors running down the halls with 60 tc full of equipment deswording random bystanders' heads off off with zero interaction, which is like the entire thing we want to avoid happening on the MRP ruleset.

If anything, so long as the traitor makes a fun show out of reaching their final objective, I wouldn't even mind what they do following. "Be gracious in victory and humble in defeat".

In my experience manuelmins treat the final objective like heretic ascensions, I've seen traitors kill people to spread romerol or wreak havoc as a dragon (without admin intervention) on manuel. Technically there isn't anything in the book that says a admin can't go after them for it but there should be

TBH, if it's ever going to happen, once it's clear that any traitor has hit their finale (the weakpoint is blown, the Battlecruiser is here, the zombies are running wild, someone is Dragon deez nuts across the station) then all antags who become aware of it should be free to go as loud as they like. "There are zombies loose in medbay" should be full justification to DEsword first and ask questions never.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:36 am My personal two cents is while I think very relaxed escalation makes sense (killing people to spread romerol, for example) allowing full murderbone will just see traitors running down the halls with 60 tc full of equipment deswording random bystanders' heads off off with zero interaction, which is like the entire thing we want to avoid happening on the MRP ruleset.

If anything, so long as the traitor makes a fun show out of reaching their final objective, I wouldn't even mind what they do following. "Be gracious in victory and humble in defeat".

This is honestly where I sit on this.

When I actually take the time to sit down and weigh the merits of this, and the pros and cons, this is where I'm left standing.

If I really need to break it all down:

Pros:

Antags get to bone
Bring round to a violent intense conclusion (like paradise kind of conclusion I guess)
Coincides with the concept of finality
Provides more antag freedom

Cons:

Doesn't apply to the final objective, which already has baked in protections
Doesn't consider things like self-defense under current boning rules
Doesn't encourage 'slowing down' to interact
Doesn't encourage much good faith gameplay
Doesn't do much to consider the other boning rules protections antags already get

If someone releases romerol they are ALREADY justified to spread it. If someone is known as being public enemy by the crew they already get a bunch of justifications too. Nobody is going to expect them to infect the ssd virologist and call it a day.

This sort of thing just enables those that quietly did their objectives, maybe even brought minimal conflict to the round to just start max capping the station just because.

That would be ignoring (and circumventing) the encouragement of doing gimmicks, having build up, and maintaining that atmosphere of things being reasonable and justifiable.

Why?

I fail to see the pros I listed holding enough benefit to be taken seriously.

As someone else said by that time there may just already be things like dragons causing their own unique issues and bringing rounds to a rushed climax.

Where is this actually coming from?

Is this a real problem of rounds not having an end state that people enjoy?

The title seems misleading compared to the dialogue of the thread when it says when they take a final objective, but traitors are already licensed to do what they need to to complete their objectives (and personal objectives), which, to be frank: is already incredibly loose. Them doing what they need to is NOT boning.

If the concern is that tots can not get more objectives and are pigeonholed, they can already ignore their objectives even from the get go to make up their own missions and objectives, and act on those in a reasonable and justifiable manner.

The boning rules primarily exist to ask two questions:

Is this reasonable?
Is this justifiable?

The rules themselves add on:

Is this fun?
Is it adding to the round?

Isn't there already a lot of wiggle room in that as it is?

just to let you know that a traitor cannot really complete their final objective. When they take their final objective, all other objectives get disabled and they automatically greentext (like heretic). They don't necessarily have to follow their final objective either, but most of their final objectives tend to be station destruction or something similar to that style.

What does that have to do with being allowed to murderbone?

If it's in pursuit of something like station destruction objective, it does not fall under what the rules would consider murderbone.

Murderbone is already a negative buzzword but it is intended to be aimed at something else entirely.

Response to mrmelbert Response to Misdoubtful

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:03 am What does that have to do with being allowed to murderbone?

If it's in pursuit of something like station destruction objective, it does not fall under what the rules would consider murderbone.

Murderbone is already a negative buzzword but it is intended to be aimed at something else entirely.

That message was intended at someone saying 'maybe only allow murderbone when they complete their final objective'
Forum UI is janky for me and I have trouble using it

Waltermeldron wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:22 am Response to mrmelbert

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mrmelbert wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:36 am My personal two cents is while I think very relaxed escalation makes sense (killing people to spread romerol, for example) allowing full murderbone will just see traitors running down the halls with 60 tc full of equipment deswording random bystanders' heads off off with zero interaction, which is like the entire thing we want to avoid happening on the MRP ruleset.

Working towards a final objective requires both time and effort, usually completing objectives that make it obvious that a traitor is lurking about. The final objective isn't their only endgoal but taking it should give them the freedom to act on their own accord.
Keep in mind that final objectives are only available near towards the end of the round anyways, and when a traitor takes one, the round should end shortly afterwards. It's their time to go loud and be chaotic, even if they have been stealthily completing objectives. If traitors are unlocking final objectives very early on in the round, then that isn't intentional and it should be fixed.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:36 am If anything, so long as the traitor makes a fun show out of reaching their final objective, I wouldn't even mind what they do following. "Be gracious in victory and humble in defeat".

A fun show is fine, but a boring and anticlimactic conclusion should also be fine, because it means we're giving the traitor the freedom to act in whatever way they want to, in order to destroy the station or cause mayhem. If they choose boring, then they chose boring, although the final objective contains more fun outlets to cause this mayhem/destruction (dragon, romerol, battlecruiser).

Response to Misdoubtful

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Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't apply to the final objective, which already has baked in protections

I don't actually understand what you're saying with this.
Currently, it's not the case that taking a final objective gives you the freedom to act as you please.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't consider things like self-defense under current boning rules

I also don't really understand what's being said here either

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't encourage 'slowing down' to interact

They shouldn't need to slowdown, since for the entirety of the round, they've been taking it slow or doing what they want. Now that they've taken a chaotic and mayhem-causing objective, they should be given the freedom to take the round in whatever direction they want.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't encourage much good faith gameplay

Why is dying to a wizard or any of the other murderbone antags considered fine? If the case that murderbone was not playing in good faith, then murderboning should be removed from all these antags as well, and they should be forced to do something gimmicky with their antag if they wish to play.
The reason this isn't the case is because the murderbone gives them the freedom to do whatever gimmick they want without it necessarily needing to relate to their objectives.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't do much to consider the other boning rules protections antags already get

Could you go into more detail about this one? I don't really understand what you mean by this.

I tried to do this in a clean and neat manner but it was a pain.

Boning rules blurb and RPR5:

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't apply to the final objective, which already has baked in protections

I don't actually understand what you're saying with this.

That was a mistyping. The final objective already has protections.

Those protections are under the NOT murderboning section:

► Show Spoiler

Murderboning is NOT

Reacting to slights with lethal force.
Antagonists still cannot kill randomly, but they are subject to relaxed escalation rules. "Slights" here can include people shoving them repeatedly, stealing from them or going out of their way to greatly insult them.
Self-defense.
Someone actively trying to make it difficult for you to complete your objectives is fine to eliminate in pursuit of completing your objective. This would include witnesses.
Collateral.
If you for instance bomb your target, it is not considered murderboning if other individuals die in the explosion. This can include self-defense situations where individuals dying from a result of being in a crowd after you would also not be considered murderbone.
Directly benefiting the pursuit of your objective(s).
An individual carrying an item you have to steal or killing someone to get closer to your mark (IE a doctor whose patient just happens to be your target) would fall into this category.

If we consider that under what murderboning is:

► Show Spoiler

Murderboning IS

random killing without regard for or in direct violation of one's objectives
killing someone and being unable to explain why without going into deep hypotheticals such as "they could find the body if they happened to walk across the station to the opposite corner of the map", or “because I can (as antag)”
killing anyone without justification

So doing anything to achieve a big objective like that is going to be protected. They have relaxed escalation meaning it doesn't take much to blast someone, self defense can include any party that might be in the way, collateral makes others dying in the act okay, and things benefiting the pursuit of a goal is pretty self explanatory.

There are not many hypotheticals involved, and its mostly all obviously justified.

RP rule 5 could also be considered here but thats touched on at a lower bullet point.

They get to do what they please in these situations outside of just running around the station killing people just because they feel like it (Mostly). Does that make sense?

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't consider things like self-defense under current boning rules

I also don't really understand what's being said here either

See above.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't encourage 'slowing down' to interact

They shouldn't need to slowdown, since for the entirety of the round, they've been taking it slow or doing what they want. Now that they've taken a chaotic and mayhem-causing objective, they should be given the freedom to take the round in whatever direction they want.

Its on me for not directing this one to be more objective, but I'm not really willing to weigh on things subjectively, just based on the rules and RP rule 5:
Antags in GENERAL with the RP rules are held to this one. So my hands are tied at finding a way to agree with you based on the rules.

Having the freedom to create conflict is one thing, having the freedom to potentially make a round an unenjoyable suckfest for everyone is another.

So they can not take the round in any direction they want.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't encourage much good faith gameplay

Why is dying to a wizard or any of the other murderbone antags considered fine? If the case that murderbone was not playing in good faith, then murderboning should be removed from all these antags as well, and they should be forced to do something gimmicky with their antag if they wish to play.

See above.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 amDoesn't do much to consider the other boning rules protections antags already get

Could you go into more detail about this one? I don't really understand what you mean by this.[/spoil]

See all of the above.

I try look at things through the lenses of the current rules as they are in the here and now, regardless of whether I agree with them or not and regardless of how pointlessly bloated they are.

Hopefully that clarifies where I'm coming from with all of this.

As I said earlier non-bone antags in this situation are already free to do pretty much whatever to do what they are there to do outside of things like lol random killing and intentionally making the round turn into an absolute suckfest.

Suckfest (like killing the entire station THEN cascading) is non-negotiable as part of another rule, but do we want to enable going on random lol because I can killing sprees because they took a final objective, even if they do nothing to make that objective a reality? Most of the actions they might take to complete that objective are already kosher, but I'm not really seeing the merits of allowing those other unsavory actions.

Do you understand the scope of what they can do when it comes to their final objectives?

These are the final objectives for those that do not know or are unsure of what they are:

Was this not the case anyways? I don't think you CAN do Nuke Ops/Zombies/Be A Dragon/Delam The SM without killing anyone who gets in your way, so Murderbone rules don't even apply unless the person is blatantly ignoring what their final objective requires to kill people for their epic ss13 kill montage instead of ending the round. If you want to say "when you get your final objective you kill whoever you want" I think that wouldn't make too much sense considering people may read this as an excuse to just ignore the objective itself and go kill people with their 80 TC or whatever.

Basically, if MRP rules as they exist are being followed, no matter who you kill while doing your objective, you're still moving towards that goal and broadening it would only help people who want to kill without doing their Funny Objective™, which is what we probably don't want.

I honestly wouldn't have the same kinds of problems with this that I do if the murderbone buzzword wasn't attached to it all.

As the rules say, a lot of what they can do is legit, meaning it ain't bone. Only a few things would be bone in this case, and they wouldn't be kosher.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:41 pm Was this not the case anyways? I don't think you CAN do Nuke Ops/Zombies/Be A Dragon/Delam The SM without killing anyone who gets in your way, so Murderbone rules don't even apply unless the person is blatantly ignoring what their final objective requires to kill people for their epic ss13 kill montage instead of ending the round. If you want to say "when you get your final objective you kill whoever you want" I think that wouldn't make too much sense considering people may read this as an excuse to just ignore the objective itself and go kill people with their 80 TC or whatever.

Basically, if MRP rules as they exist are being followed, no matter who you kill while doing your objective, you're still moving towards that goal and broadening it would only help people who want to kill without doing their Funny Objective™, which is what we probably don't want.

For the 'Be A Dragon' objective, it isn't clear that you can go kill whoever you want. You aren't given another antag datum to tell you to do that, so it's somewhat ambiguous. I don't want it to have to be a thing where you have to state 'go kill everyone' in final objectives which boost your killing power in some way.

For the 'Be A Dragon' objective, it isn't clear that you can go kill whoever you want. You aren't given another antag datum to tell you to do that, so it's somewhat ambiguous. I don't want it to have to be a thing where you have to state 'go kill everyone' in final objectives which boost your killing power in some way.

I personally disagree, while a newer player may be a little confused about what rules they need to follow, I don't think anyone brand new to antagging would even GET to their final objective. As for experienced players? It may be less of an issue because there's literally nothing to do but be menacing and murder. which is specifically what we want them to do.

I don't want to add more usage of "Murderbone" to the MRP ruleset because of how outdated and misused of a term it is, any anyone angry that a massive raging dragon killed a bunch of people is going to look like an idiot. Not adding this clause allows admins to continue punishing:
- Battlecruiser final objectives who delay the round in an unfun way/kill their own teammates
- SM delam final objectives who totally ignore that to just kill random people around the station
- Zombie outbreak final objectives who kill people without spreading the plague

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:26 am I don't want to add more usage of "Murderbone" to the MRP ruleset because of how outdated and misused of a term it is, any anyone angry that a massive raging dragon killed a bunch of people is going to look like an idiot.

I agree that "Murderbone" is already a term that has been beaten with sticks and contorted and misused by the various forms of the MRP ruleset and should absolutely be replaced by just saying what you want to prevent instead of trying to use it as a catch-all bin for "allowed/not allowed violence"

I too would agree that the word "murderbone" means so many different things to so many different people that it's not really a useful term anymore.

Hot(?) take: "murderbone" should probably never have become a term used in the rules

Murderbone as a phrase will be removed from the MRP rules by the end of the term. The new MRP antag rules are just waiting on the headmin team to vote them in and update the wiki, and with our new elect we've got an extra set of eyes and opinions to help make that a success.

Even the definition on the terminology wiki-page sucks.

Killing spree is so vague that anything can happen and someone might come to the conclusion that its bone based on definition alone rather than the rules.

Murderboning means everything from "Killing the entirety of medbay with deswords because you can" to the more common "guys the traitor was murderboning he killed two people!". As Timber said, it's a term being removed because of how vague and awful it is for the MRP community, and there's no benefit from allowing traitors to do it when their final objective rolls around, as their final objective will probably already involve a whole lot of killing that is 100% acceptable.

After some discussion, we agree that given the round-ending nature of final objectives, traitors who complete them should be free to take actions to bring the round to a conclusion as they see fit, and may therefore act as unrestricted antagonists after they have completed their final objective (simply accepting the objective is not sufficient for this).
Additionally, other antagonists who are able to personally confirm the success of a round ending final objective such as the successful release of romerol, the presence of a battlecruiser strike force, or a supermatter cascade, may also act as unrestricted antagonists. The space dragon final objective is excluded from this, as it is largely indistinguishable from a standard midround antagonist.

Antagonists acting under these reduced restrictions should keep in mind that they are expected to bring an interesting end to the round with their increased permissions, and should not act to undo the damage they are causing (by for example, killing and decapitating their own romerol zombies unless given no other option) or meaninglessly delaying the end of the round by preventing or recalling the emergency shuttle