/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:33 am**

Should it be ok to release the round start prisoners for no reason? Seems very weird that it happens all so often. Is breaking a round start prisoner out a crime, if it is a crime, how bad of a crime is it? Escaping from perma is in the vast majority of cases seen as a valid reason to kill someone; Can the same logic be applied to those who help others escape from perma?

To be blunt, prisoners have been in an odd spot since their original implementation with little done to improve them. They are paradoxically one of the few roles on the station that is guaranteed not to be able to be an evil sadistic murderer, and yet the one which is locked up and kept away from the crew at round start.

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:08 am**

What happens to CO's when they let inmates walk out?

Bad times.

Having a reason, like a crisis is obviously a good reason.

Paroling later in the round for good behavior? Could be reasonable.

Consider this blurb for MRP:
viewtopic.php?p=576934#p576934

We agree with some of the sentiments in this thread that prisoners should only be made into security if the situation demands it, such as needing all hands on deck to fight a blob, or more mindshielded crew to fight a dominant.
However in the absence of a good reason it should not happen, such as promoting them immediately roundstart. This is of course for MRP servers only.

If a situation like making them sec (meta status or no) warrants having a demanding reason, wouldn't releasing them also?

If they signed up for the role without accepting that they may be a jailbird all shift, why pick the role?

In the spirit of that MRP only blurb, why would anyone actually release them roundstart? What is the good reason to do so?

Consider this overall blurb for prisoners:
viewtopic.php?p=553343#p553343

After some discussion this is what we've decided upon for prisoner policy going forward:
Prisoners are not antagonists. Attempting to break out is something they can do, but should not be an every round thing. When breaking out they are free to disable or restrain security but should not murder them. However, if security responds with lethal force, such as lethal shotgun rounds, they can murder in the spirit of preserving their own life. If a prisoner is caught after an attempted breakout, they've opened themselves up to any form of forced experimentation.

They might get blasted even after being let out. Its like any other break-out, except with less leeway. Escaping and being let out can look the exact same in a number of situations for a prisoner. You get what you sign up for, meta status doesn't mean you won't get put down for doing a prison break, or being a part of one.

That being said its intended that people aren't picking the role just do prison breaks every other round.

Posted: **Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:20 am**

I think it might help if permabrig prisoners actually started with a randomly generated sec record crime.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:20 am**

Yeah, this shouldn't be happening without reason. I've seen instances where people conscript them as sec if there's an emergency, which I'm perfectly fine with, but there should be a very, very good reason to release them if it's happening at all.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:20 am I think it might help if permabrig prisoners actually started with a randomly generated sec record crime.

I agree, either this or something a player can set, but that's a coding issue.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:10 am**

An option for setting persistent records for statics would in fact be fantastic.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:39 am**

I can't speak for MRP, but in the context of LRP the role is often used to escalation bait. They're prisoners, so a lot want to escape right? Sec can repeatedly stun them, take away their stuff, rebuild, stun them again, take away their stuff, throw them back in, and keep doing this until they run out of stuff to break. Statistically, they're going to mess up here and there, have a stun weapon taken away, then resort to lethals which allows the prisoners to resort to lethals. Or the prisoners just immediately use spears to break out and stab officers. Sometimes you get chill prisoners who are actually harmless and just want to vibe, but I'd consider that uncommon. My experience is that the best way to avoid this kind of nightmare is to just identify if they're the vibe type or the breakout type. If they're the vibe type, I bring them a headset as warden and try to entertain any item requests to bring them. If they're the breakout type, immediately release them and I no longer have to worry about them fucking up the brig for no reason. Non-antag prisoners that self-antag aren't fun to deal with. You can reply "oh that's against the rules ahelp that" and my counter argument is fuck you. If I have to choose between freeing prisoners that I have no real incentive to keep locked up and skipping the drama involved with them to having to deal with a situation that I will potentially have to ahelp, I'll choose the drama free option, thanks. This policy is a non-issue. I'd sooner advocate for removing the role entirely.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:58 pm**

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:39 am I can't speak for MRP, but in the context of LRP the role is often used to escalation bait. They're prisoners, so a lot want to escape right? Sec can repeatedly stun them, take away their stuff, rebuild, stun them again, take away their stuff, throw them back in, and keep doing this until they run out of stuff to break. Statistically, they're going to mess up here and there, have a stun weapon taken away, then resort to lethals which allows the prisoners to resort to lethals. Or the prisoners just immediately use spears to break out and stab officers. Sometimes you get chill prisoners who are actually harmless and just want to vibe, but I'd consider that uncommon. My experience is that the best way to avoid this kind of nightmare is to just identify if they're the vibe type or the breakout type. If they're the vibe type, I bring them a headset as warden and try to entertain any item requests to bring them. If they're the breakout type, immediately release them and I no longer have to worry about them fucking up the brig for no reason. Non-antag prisoners that self-antag aren't fun to deal with. You can reply "oh that's against the rules ahelp that" and my counter argument is fuck you. If I have to choose between freeing prisoners that I have no real incentive to keep locked up and skipping the drama involved with them to having to deal with a situation that I will potentially have to ahelp, I'll choose the drama free option, thanks. This policy is a non-issue. I'd sooner advocate for removing the role entirely.

Sounds as though you dislike conflict and drama.

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm**

Prisoner should be a roleplay job, not a "haha funny breakout" job/soft self-antag

Posted: **Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:59 pm**

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm Prisoner should be a roleplay job, not a "haha funny breakout" job/soft self-antag

I don't necessarily think these two things are mutually exclusive. Prisoners would naturally want to escape in some cases. I don't see an issue with them trying, but they shouldn't go overboard with it.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:23 am**

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:59 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm Prisoner should be a roleplay job, not a "haha funny breakout" job/soft self-antag
I don't necessarily think these two things are mutually exclusive. Prisoners would naturally want to escape in some cases. I don't see an issue with them trying, but they shouldn't go overboard with it.

+1, a prisoner should be completely allowed to do whatever it takes to escape perma short of harm. Expecting them to pass up an opportunity to shovecuff the warden and grab his ID for escape would be egregious fail RP, and would make the meta issue brought up in the OP worse (if they can't be antag and can't escalate against me to escape, then they're just as trustworthy as officers).

Sec releasing them roundstart is incredibly cringe but I think it'd be a step in the wrong direction to prevent it wholesale. There are just too many situations where deputizing can be justified (revs, cult, nukies, etc.), and on the offchance the perma guy gets bored and just wants to walk around on station sec should probably have the discretion to indulge them.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:39 am**

Yeah, breaking out opportunistically is fine, but IMO prisoner needs some obvious routes for RP that don't revolve around that and when I go prisoner I should have some aspiration or idea beyond being a nuisance to security until I'm free or they airlock me.

Posted: **Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:27 am**

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/69446

The Prisoner job is finally fixed. Or, when this is merged, rather.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:50 am**

Although it is uncommon, we believe that this situation does indeed warrant an update to how we handle policy regarding prisoners. The best way to do this is by reworking the April 2020 Prisoner Policy into a policy string such that prisoners understand what is expected of them in a shift. The following policy string will be added to the Prisoner job (as in: every player who takes the job will recieve it when they spawn in):

Code: Select all

"Prisoner":"<span class='redtext'>\nYou are <b>not an antagonist</b>. Remember: you did sign up for this role.
If you should want to walk the halls of the station once more, you should <i>earn</i> your freedom, whether by escaping your confines or working with security/lawyers to determine terms of release.
You might prove to be valuable manpower against the various threats the station professes. If you should wish to escape, minimize harm while preserving your own life,
and understand that you may not enjoy the consequences of your actions if you get caught once more.\n\nOtherwise, enjoy the amenities of the wing that holds you.</span><br><br>",

(line breaks added for visual clarity to the reader)

Current rules/policy/articles shall be amended to take this new stance into account.

/tg/Station 13

Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.

Re: Releasing the roundstart prisoners for no reason.