/tg/Station 13

I've basically thought of SS13 as a perfect game to stream, as someone who used to stream and watch streams of Town of Salem (imagine my shock when someone named john willard talks about town of salem).
Town of Salem and Space Station 13 are pretty similar games in terms of social deduction with different factions, so I thought I would compare the two, for the sake of example.

Town of Salem would generally be called 'NRP' to 'LRP, there's no rules to act like anyone, as long as you do your job (role abilities) and don't ruin the round of everyone else, you are golden. However, It's left up to the streamer to decide how they want their round to be; Some streamers hide most information from the viewers, some would host private games for viewers only, others would just play the game normally and leave everything visible, with hopes their viewers aren't gonna abuse said information.

We seem to limit streaming on LRP as if it's protecting streamers from themselves, as if they aren't knowing what they sign up for, yet I could go on Twitch and see Town of Salem streams showing their roles and all other game information


A closer comparison to SS13 would be RussStation, their rules are similar to LRP, yet streaming is allowed, and typically ends up being fine (It being a streamer's personal server and all).

In general, my argument is that streamers should be allowed to choose whether they want to play MRP with the higher standards, or play LRP where they should expect things to be more erratic (which is normal for LRP), or even play both via Server hopping. They should have the freedom to choose, rather than be restricted to a single server, that they may or may not want to play on otherwise.

This is mostly my response to one of our current headmin's view on streaming, as it was the only argument I was able to find that was against streaming on LRP:

It's alright for Medium Roleplay servers since you're expected to conceal metainformation and griefing through stream sniping becomes rougly about 10x more obvious (especially considering the fact that you can't outright kill, and the play-to-win mentality is really dampened there). I think it's in a fair spot right now, and I know that there were some concerns over timing+scheduling+admin coverage, but we already have the Stream Manager role which I believe still has authority over those matters.

In regards to stream-sniping I don't think it would exist particularly more than ghost-sniping or anything. If we trust our players to not meta people from seeing antagonistic things from being a ghost (Like cult, heretics other traitors etc etc) we should be able to fully trust them with this information too from streaming.

The difference between among us / TTT / town of salem / your fav game is that its match based and therefore new players cannot join (TTT joins as spectator). Even then, in moba games the crucial elements like pre-drafted team comp or even where the rest of the team is on the map is sometimes hidden from other players during streams. Even ghosts in OUR game dont get the same information a player might receive (such as antag status until they act or have something on their person which also requires a bit of effort to sometimes see).

My issue with streaming personally is that I dont think it takes other players considerations into account (specifically in regards to whether THEY want the risk of having their round lost to the "rare" sniper), so I think I could get behind it if there was a clear majority vote willing to say they would be ok with that risk (at minimum 55-60%). That would be in line with the streamer server mentioned above, as presumably the vast majority of individuals joining are ok with the streaming since thats how they found the server to begin with.

I don't see why streaming would be allowed on MRP but not LRP. The headmin opinion seems weird - to protect streamers from being griefed, but surely if you decide to stream that's a risk you're taking anyway? Better than not allowing it at all.

Its not about the streamer its about the other players. The streamer obviously accepts the risks, the players who divulge information to the streamer (or the game revealing information to the streamer about the person) have not had the ability to say if theyre ok with it or not (maybe they have via some previous vote but im too lazy to check).

Id actually say you likely see the exact opposite of sniping whereas there is a person that comes to aid the streamer at the most convenient of times although im just guessing .

That can be a problem but it's also something that could be a problem on other the other LRP-esque servers that allow streaming, or even in my example other game entirely.

Cobby wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:47 pm The difference between among us / TTT / town of salem / your fav game is that its match based and therefore new players cannot join (TTT joins as spectator). Even then, in moba games the crucial elements like pre-drafted team comp or even where the rest of the team is on the map is sometimes hidden from other players during streams.

New players are unable to join, but rounds are short enough that you can always join the next round if you stick around a bit, however I never played a MOBA game in my life so I can't give you a response.

Cobby wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:47 pm Even ghosts in OUR game dont get the same information a player might receive (such as antag status until they act or have something on their person which also requires a bit of effort to sometimes see).

I disagree about the Ghost thing, they are given a lot of information and basically can see who all antags are right away with the tools they have.

Cobby wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:47 pm My issue with streaming personally is that I dont think it takes other players considerations into account (specifically in regards to whether THEY want the risk of having their round lost to the "rare" sniper)

That's fair, but again this scenario is still possible in my other games' example, and still turns out fine, which is my main argument.

Well yeah if its after the game ends then the point is moot because you cant influence the current game. Plenty of streamers hide invite codes and things specifically because of how these people might influence the NEXT game as well. Its very dependent on your viewerbase (or the fringe individual looking to cause mischief).

As for ghosts on our game, they get TP to ops/wizard which is a pretty big deal but "hiding in plain sight" antags require observing each individual or reacting to actions they do. Im well aware we give them a bunch of knowledge, but we also withhold important knowledge from them as well (else we would give them antag hud, let them see objectives, etc.). Those are design decisions.

Another concern i've had with streaming and even youtube videos about ss13 is that individuals might get a skewed version of how the game plays out if they only see murderbone montage or mischief making when a large part of the game is playing a sitcom corporate worker and doing the job. In other mentioned games, you're part of the protagonists trying to kill the baddies. In ss13, you're just a corporate worker trying to make it to the next day. I think if you have an audience you're trying to appease it might push you (and them if they decide to join) to treat it like you have to be the hero/villain every time as opposed to a RP-first outlook ofthe game. Heck, the idea that people want to stream on LRP vs MRP seems to indicate its somewhat true.

Regardless of any of this, i dont see why it cant be put into a vote. If a majority of people (or even a 50/50 spread) dont want to have a round theyre in streamed whether its because of the sniping/metafriend potential or for some other reason, i'm not sure why we might say "sorry too bad" when you can just stream on the existing servers that allow it or convert them into youtube videos instead without addressing why people are saying no. If a majority do or at least are ok with streaming in a round theyre in, then that's something I can respect as well and its nbd. I dont see why a vote shouldnt be respected here (or why headmins would need to executive decision this instead of toss a vote).

Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:32 am Its not about the streamer its about the other players. The streamer obviously accepts the risks, the players who divulge information to the streamer (or the game revealing information to the streamer about the person) have not had the ability to say if theyre ok with it or not (maybe they have via some previous vote but im too lazy to check).

Id actually say you likely see the exact opposite of sniping whereas there is a person that comes to aid the streamer at the most convenient of times although im just guessing .

But why does this apply more to LRP servers than to MRP servers? All of your rationale here applies equally to both. The only reason MRP was allowed over LRP is because there's less grief and such on MRP which means it would be safer for the streamer, but again the streamer takes that risk. Is it more likely for players to aid the streamer on LRP than MRP? I just don't see any justification for disallowing it on LRP if it's allowed on MRP.

I think the vote should apply to both, the only difference between the two (and why its on MRP now) is

Another concern i've had with streaming and even youtube videos about ss13 is that individuals might get a skewed version of how the game plays out if they only see murderbone montage or mischief making when a large part of the game is playing a sitcom corporate worker and doing the job. In other mentioned games, you're part of the protagonists trying to kill the baddies. In ss13, you're just a corporate worker trying to make it to the next day. I think if you have an audience you're trying to appease it might push you (and them if they decide to join) to treat it like you have to be the hero/villain every time as opposed to a RP-first outlook ofthe game. Heck, the idea that people want to stream on LRP vs MRP seems to indicate its somewhat true.

Its much easier to curate the notion its not all guns and glory ona MRP server thanit is on a LRP one.

Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:20 pm I think the vote should apply to both, the only difference between the two (and why its on MRP now) is

Another concern i've had with streaming and even youtube videos about ss13 is that individuals might get a skewed version of how the game plays out if they only see murderbone montage or mischief making when a large part of the game is playing a sitcom corporate worker and doing the job. In other mentioned games, you're part of the protagonists trying to kill the baddies. In ss13, you're just a corporate worker trying to make it to the next day. I think if you have an audience you're trying to appease it might push you (and them if they decide to join) to treat it like you have to be the hero/villain every time as opposed to a RP-first outlook ofthe game. Heck, the idea that people want to stream on LRP vs MRP seems to indicate its somewhat true.

Its much easier to curate the notion its not all guns and glory ona MRP server thanit is on a LRP one.

Why are we "curating a notion" about a niche atmos simulator that hardly anybody plays, to a tiny group of viewers of a streamer almost no one watches? This just comes across as obsessive to me to be honest. And even if this were a concern it still doesn't make sense. What you're effectively saying is that LRP is not a good portrayal of SS13 to a streamer's viewers, and I completely disagree. More people play TG LRP than MRP. If you believe MRP is a "better example" of TG SS13 than LRP, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's definitely not something we should be banning LRP streamers for.

because

1) its important to give players an honest expectation about what they expect to see when actually playing the game

and

2) if they try to playing outside of that not only does it get them banned but it also ruins the game for the people already playing the game "hardly anyone plays".

This, along with many other (more important) concerns,is why it should be put to a vote. It DOES have long term impact.

I did not say LRP isn't a good portrayal of ss13 to viewers. I AM saying streaming (and even youtube videos) can very easily skew towards being a poor portrayal of ss13, and it makes sense why it was restricted to MRP since its harder to skew to those bad portrayals without having an admin on you. Im not saying its foolproof in accomplishing that either, im just saying I can understand the decision behind initially limiting it to MRP (and thats not even considering other factors that im not aware of that adjusted their decision).

the obsessive comment came out of nowhere, idk how to tackle that one so ill just say its silly. If I was obsessive I certainly would not want it to be a vote, especially when I know best .

Cobby wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:34 pm because

1) its important to give players an honest expectation about what they expect to see when actually playing the game

This was the reason for the obsessive charge (although I'm saying it's the idea not you). I don't think entertainment should care about this whatsoever. Almost all highly-viewed SS13 videos are a terrible example of what players should expect when actually playing the game. Sseth's video which got an enormous influx of players (the likes of which probably fueled our current activity) is a god awful example of what to expect. The majority of it was rulebreaking, even. But overall these videos are very good for TG because they brought tons of players, most of which now respect the rules and develop a better idea of what to expect as they actually play.

Cobby wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:34 pmI did not say LRP isn't a good portrayal of ss13 to viewers. I AM saying streaming (and even youtube videos) can very easily skew towards being a poor portrayal of ss13, and it makes sense why it was restricted to MRP since its harder to skew to those bad portrayals without having an admin on you.

Here is what I think we want to be portrayed: fun. This is all any game should care about portraying, and that's why the vast majority of games seek to look as fun as possible. If players break some rules as a result of poor expectations, well that's what admins are for. But if the SSethtide was any metric to go by I would say it's a net benefit by far.

allow steaming on LRP so i can own noobs live

I'd like to see LRP here as an option for streams. Only Manuel limits EU streamers with lowpop and bad ping.
About possible negative things: streamsniping is a same thing as metagrudge and round info is your usual metainfo. tg has rules about both already.

Livrah wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:14 pm I'd like to see LRP here as an option for streams. Only Manuel limits EU streamers with lowpop and bad ping.
About possible negative things: streamsniping is a same thing as metagrudge and round info is your usual metainfo. tg has rules about both already.

There are rules about both, but both are also extremely difficult to catch.

Cobby wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:59 pm
Another concern i've had with streaming and even youtube videos about ss13 is that individuals might get a skewed version of how the game plays out if they only see murderbone montage or mischief making when a large part of the game is playing a sitcom corporate worker and doing the job. In other mentioned games, you're part of the protagonists trying to kill the baddies. In ss13, you're just a corporate worker trying to make it to the next day. I think if you have an audience you're trying to appease it might push you (and them if they decide to join) to treat it like you have to be the hero/villain every time as opposed to a RP-first outlook ofthe game. Heck, the idea that people want to stream on LRP vs MRP seems to indicate its somewhat true.

That is a silly concern for streaming. When you stream, there is no editing, and most rounds will be nonantag. You play the game and show it all.

How would you even be a hero as a nonantag? Would you go validhunting or play detective or security? If any roles where you are "playing the hero" it would be those, although even that is complicated by crime and greytiding. Although, its true that it may make validhunting a bit more common if streamers are that bored, I guess.

If you are trying to make the game more fun to watch, you are more likely doing creative gimmicks or roleplaying in some way, or just enjoying the chaos. Or perhaps showing off the novelty of what you can do in this in depth and massive game.

I've always understood that validhunting on lrp is balanced by the fact that if you die to an antag trying to validhunt, your round is completely over and you are absolutely round removed, encouraged by the fact that heretics only revive their targets as well. If you do that, then you are straight up dead and you have no more content left to produce for your stream except to observe people, I guess.

If the antag was murderboning, this isn't a big deal. You were gonna die anyways. If they weren't, then you took a risk and died for it.

youre correct, its much more prevalent in youtube content. Still, the utmost importance to me is that players dont have a say in the matter UNLESS we put it to a vote.

Cobby wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:58 pm youre correct, its much more prevalent in youtube content. Still, the utmost importance to me is that players dont have a say in the matter UNLESS we put it to a vote.

players also don't actually get a say with the vote, the vote is just used as another thing to consider when deciding

well sure, just like 1 headmin can have a say on the matter but the other 2 btfo them. The headmin would still have a say in the matter.

not sure what i was suppose to obtain from ur post. I would prefer if the decision respected the vote in either direction so long as nothing funny is going on and the vote is clear. If it's not, I think we should respect the X number of people who dont want streaming since the few people who will decide to stream would not outweigh the people markedly against it.

bump so this isn't buried/forgotten

it was indeed buried/forgotten

This is something we're likely to employ policy bus and possibly server polls when considering - it is still on our radar for consideration.

An IRV server poll on this matter has been created and will run for the next seven days.

Results of the poll:

Raw Data

Players with 10 recent connections

Admin Only

Please try not to spam up policy threads. It does not reflect well on your character. Have some patience, please.

We're allowing streaming on the LRP servers, for registered streamers.

For more info check out this link

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Streaming

Rave: Yes
San: Yes
Spook: Yes