Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

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Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Turbonerd » #655348

Tech storage gets a wall replaced with a false wall every round at roundstart. Some shit keeps opening EVA shutters or asking AI to do so, and sometimes even teleporter shutters. I think this kind of roundstart tiding is just NRP shittery, and should be discouraged.

Roundstart tiding and breaking into areas (including asking AI to open) to get gear for no reason should be considered playing to win, as it ruins the roleplaying experience and gives a shitty repetitive play to win atmosphere at the expense of everyone's roleplaying experience. This would also include AI making restricted areas (such as EVA) public for no reason.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Agux909 » #655349

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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #655350

Tech storage exists to be broken into
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Pandarsenic » #655357

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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Cobby » #655409

If someone does it repeatedly you should start marking round numbers and/or hit the F1.

Its already not cool to make it a repeated habit, but once in a while (per person) is fine. The issue is one of security, and more specifically security being unable to handle both antagonists and "RP" crime
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #655432

You should be able to tide tech storage every round 200 rounds in a row without it becoming rule breaking.

Rule 12’s playing-to-win stipulation was made with the explicit caveat that it only applies when you’re negatively affecting someone’s round as a result. I don’t see how asking the AI to open tech storage for insuls affects anyone’s round negatively.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Pandarsenic » #655437

The only case I can see where it's a real problem is if someone wants them to do a fun project (IceBox construction room or something, or a maint bar, or whatever) and the tider is taking them to break into departments and harass people.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by TheFinalPotato » #655447

It's bad vibes. Feels wrong
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by serxule » #655449

arent posts relating to mrp supposed to be labelled as such? this doesnt sound like something for LRP tg

also for things said:
"Tech storage gets a wall replaced with a false wall every round at roundstart." just make all the walls rwalls or something instead of complaining
"Some shit keeps opening EVA shutters or asking AI to do so." you know people use EVA gear to explore space right? yknow, the space ruins, in space, that you need eva gear for? how do you "play to win" eva
"it ruins the roleplaying experience and gives a shitty repetitive play to win atmosphere at the expense of everyone's roleplaying experience." if you're referring to the LRP servers, none of this applies as sybil/bagil/terry have never had RP, which is why i asked if this is about mrp.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #655451

serxule wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:21 am "it ruins the roleplaying experience and gives a shitty repetitive play to win atmosphere at the expense of everyone's roleplaying experience." if you're referring to the LRP servers, none of this applies as sybil/bagil/terry have never had RP, which is why i asked if this is about mrp.
To be fair;

LRP doesn't mean NRP and even LRP has enforced this before. So the claim they "have never had RP" is wacky.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by EmpressMaia » #655453

All command area access CAN be denied by an asimov ai. Any restricted or dangerous area for that matter. But yeah restricted areas should actually mean something. If you want EVA gear bug the hop or cap for an access change.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by serxule » #655454

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:48 am
serxule wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:21 am "it ruins the roleplaying experience and gives a shitty repetitive play to win atmosphere at the expense of everyone's roleplaying experience." if you're referring to the LRP servers, none of this applies as sybil/bagil/terry have never had RP, which is why i asked if this is about mrp.
To be fair;

LRP doesn't mean NRP and even LRP has enforced this before. So the claim they "have never had RP" is wacky.
you still get what im saying, if they have a problem with a room being broken into (that affects no one else) on bagil/sybil/terry and ignore the murderboners, the bombings, plasmaflooding (etc etc etc) then its definitely a player issue
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Turbonerd » #655465

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:38 am You should be able to tide tech storage every round 200 rounds in a row without it becoming rule breaking.

Rule 12’s playing-to-win stipulation was made with the explicit caveat that it only applies when you’re negatively affecting someone’s round as a result. I don’t see how asking the AI to open tech storage for insuls affects anyone’s round negatively.
It gives off a bad atmosphere. It milks the tech storage before it could be used to create a story.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #655466

Turbonerd wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:24 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:38 am You should be able to tide tech storage every round 200 rounds in a row without it becoming rule breaking.

Rule 12’s playing-to-win stipulation was made with the explicit caveat that it only applies when you’re negatively affecting someone’s round as a result. I don’t see how asking the AI to open tech storage for insuls affects anyone’s round negatively.
It gives off a bad atmosphere. It milks the tech storage before it could be used to create a story.
Funny you say this because due to the assistant antic of tiding tech storage I've had multiple stories get created from that alone.

One time someone got the insuls before me so I set out crafting clever ways to stun him and get them back. It was like a super long game of keep-away, and it went back-and-forth nearly the entire hour long round, we postured over comms and teased each other and it just made for a cool little story between us.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #655468

As an AI I don't mind being asked every round to let so-and-so into EVA so they can go on their funny space request. Rote actions to get into the swing of things at roundstart isn't really that big an issue. I just close up after they're done.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by datorangebottle » #655479

serxule wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:10 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:48 am
serxule wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:21 am "it ruins the roleplaying experience and gives a shitty repetitive play to win atmosphere at the expense of everyone's roleplaying experience." if you're referring to the LRP servers, none of this applies as sybil/bagil/terry have never had RP, which is why i asked if this is about mrp.
To be fair;

LRP doesn't mean NRP and even LRP has enforced this before. So the claim they "have never had RP" is wacky.
you still get what im saying, if they have a problem with a room being broken into (that affects no one else) on bagil/sybil/terry and ignore the murderboners, the bombings, plasmaflooding (etc etc etc) then its definitely a player issue
Rule 12 is not a roleplay rule. It's a global rule. Stop weirdly forcing server tribalism into a thread that has nothing to do with server-specific rules.

regardless, as someone who would regularly break into tech storage for various reasons: the any% insulated gloves speedrun can make or break an assistant's gimmick. It also helps conceal antagonists who want the gloves/boards/etc. from tech storage by adding fingerprints and other evidence to the doors. It's important to note that it would make those same antagonists far more visible if breaking into tech storage roundstart was against the rules.

Don't like people roundstart breaking into things? Go security and do something about it. I can count the number of times I've been arrested or even accosted for breaking into tech storage on one hand. As long as the reward outweighs the risk, people will continue to break in.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Cobby » #655502

Sorry I didnt read the OP fully, ASKING for the boards/access round after round is perfectly fine.

TIDING into the place everytime is over the line greytiding (as with any place). If its a right to have access to those items it should not be behind access-restricted doors, we have an equivalent area they COULD go in if we wanted non-access people to have equal priority of these items.

That said, this is still largely a sec issue and only becomes an admin issue when repeated by the same player over many rounds.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #655574

datorange does have a point in that petty theft and itemgrabbing needs to be fine for non antags to do as long as they arent getting aggressive/obnoxious about. If only the antags are allowed to do it then everyone knows that the guy stealing the EVA materials is a traitor.

The "no-go" point has always been when you're smashing up someone else's department to steal their stuff because "I want it", non-job zones like EVA should be much less OOCly protected
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Cobby » #655597

Its fine up until the point people can preemptively camp a location specifically because they know you will do it every round. That is also a form of "excessive" tiding, not exclusive to being "excessive" within a singular round. Security should not have to put up with you every round as thats equally obnoxious (if not worse) than you being a megababy in one.

If you think a job should have access to an item then you should code it in such a way that its thematically appropriate (at the lowest effort taking said item out of the area they cant normally reach).
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Pandarsenic » #655618

Protip for sec players: If you gear up at roundstart and immediately hit tech storage to protect it from the tide
and they ahelp a 5-minute B&E plus confiscation of their tools
I will laugh at them and possibly give you a medal as long as you don't keep the tools for yourself
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Ziiro » #655625

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:43 pm I will laugh at them and possibly give you a medal as long as you don't keep the tools for yourself
No matter the crime I find that 95% of sec will take your entire toolbelt for themselves even if it's like a 1 minute crime.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by DaydreamIQ » #655820

Who the fuck gets mad at EVA being open roundstart when people just wanna go explore space? Its not like all the departments that Need EVA gear have their own equipment anyways
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by NamelessFairy » #655935

Commenting on the tech storage tiding exclusively, this is already against the rules when done excessively.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Redrover1760 » #655986

EmpressMaia wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:01 pm All command area access CAN be denied by an asimov ai. Any restricted or dangerous area for that matter. But yeah restricted areas should actually mean something. If you want EVA gear bug the hop or cap for an access change.
Well you see... That's just straight up wrong under current silicon policy.

2.Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.
1."Dangerous" areas (armory, atmospherics, toxins lab, etc.) can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.
2.EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; antagonists completing theft objectives is not human harm.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Rageguy505 » #655987

i think it used to, EVA was considered a secure area before
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by BlueMemesauce » #655991

The AI doesn't care about secure areas, only dangerous areas. EVA was never a dangerous area, infact it's quite the opposite as space suits protect from human harm.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by SkeletalElite » #656005

The only thing I dislike is when someone speed runs it so hard that shits already been stolen before I can even get a stun baton as a secoff
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Post by zxaber » #656023

The "but don't do it too much" clause is a crutch and we apply it to too many situations. Not every repeatable action is automatically bad for the game.

If someone's trying to grind a space ruin or something, we shouldn't be hanging the threat of "don't do it too much" over their heads. It hurts absolutely no one directly for them to raid EVA, and the only indirect harm is possibly that a suit is missing later on when it's needed. If they're constantly bringing loot back to win against antags, we hit them with the powergaming rule because they're constantly bringing loot back, not because they steal from EVA every round.

Tech storage is arguably engineer's department, but it's not within engineering's borders and stealing a pair of insuls from a remote engineering room is like stealing a bucket of sand from a beach. If someone is using insuls to be a general ass every round, bwoink them for being a general ass every round. We have had bans for excessive tiding before, it doesn't need to be related to whether or not they also nabbed the insuls.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #656024

zxaber wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 2:44 pm The "but don't do it too much" clause is a crutch and we apply it to too many situations. Not every repeatable action is automatically bad for the game.
[...]
Tech storage is arguably engineer's department, but it's not within engineering's borders and stealing a pair of insuls from a remote engineering room is like stealing a bucket of sand from a beach. If someone is using insuls to be a general ass every round, bwoink them for being a general ass every round. We have had bans for excessive tiding before, it doesn't need to be related to whether or not they also nabbed the insuls.
Most correct opinion has been located in the thread.

I've played servers that bwoink for this kind of thing by the way. What ends up happening is exactly what DoB says - antagonists have to walk on eggshells and are immediately outted for basic things like hacking into tech storage or into engineering. The tide is a mask that protects real antags and gives them breathing room, if you crack down on tide OOCly you're indirectly punishing antags.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by bastardblaster » #656025

add turrets to tech storage cowards
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Turbonerd » #656029

SkeletalElite wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:12 am The only thing I dislike is when someone speed runs it so hard that shits already been stolen before I can even get a stun baton as a secoff
This is something I should've mentioned. It's hard to deal with roundstart tech storage tiders when engineers are doing the engine and security are getting their equipment ready. Most people aren't going to be ready to deal with the roundstart tide rush.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Cobby » #656039

Youre not protecting antags by stealing an item that you do everytime to the point if you DONT steal it people should kill you for it because youre likely an antag.

The only sensible option is not one of policy at all, its to make something you want accessible, well... accessible.

Breaking into an area repeatedly, regardless of location, to the point its a given if youre online shouldnt be allowed. I, the hypothetical admin, should not need to weigh your "actually im a good guy" argument of every item in every room you pull and how much i expect the actual person who said item is intended for is expected to need it later. If you want to be the chivalrous knight who is saving the antags, why not instead argue for stronger methods of concealment so they dont need "you" to be totally-not-malicious to be able to do their job? or, why not question the design of the room (staying in tech storage for more than 2 seconds is an obvious antag tell) or item that you supposedly NEED every round?

It is an open-source game, if there is an argument to be made that the item should be accessible to the job youre raiding the room for every round, you should be asking for code changes instead of putting the onus on the administration to forego the "intended" design of the game for some alleged greater good. If there is an argument that antags need plausible deniability, they dont need you (a nonantag looking to have pseudo all-access every round) when we can instead have a conversation about why the design is so doodoo we need a not-a-bad-guy to do semi-bad-guy things to hide the actual-bad-guys of the game.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #656042

You can't clamp down on people doing this occasionally as it has some benefits: It gives security things to do outside of valid hunting. If you see someone doing it every single round its already against the rules anyway
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #656078

Cobby wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:11 pm If you want to be the chivalrous knight who is saving the antags, why not instead argue for stronger methods of concealment so they dont need "you" to be totally-not-malicious to be able to do their job? or, why not question the design of the room (staying in tech storage for more than 2 seconds is an obvious antag tell) or item that you supposedly NEED every round?
Because this requires a code change and we're in policy discussion. It's also not really a good idea to make somewhere public access just because people want the things there. This argument is also a bit odd. Security obviously needs nonantag crime to exist for antags to work, especially on LRP where validhunting is allowed. That's sort of why tiding being looser on LRP works so well.
Cobby wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:11 pmBreaking into an area repeatedly, regardless of location, to the point its a given if youre online shouldnt be allowed.
Why not exactly? What's wrong with someone breaking into EVA every single round for a space suit because they want to explore space, for like 15 rounds in a row? It doesn't harm anyone, it's technically a crime according to spacelaw but that's exactly why security exists (although many wouldn't bother arresting someone for B&E like that). Same applies to tech storage. Why is it an admin issue, even if it's repeated? How does it make the game worse? It's definitely not enforced like this at all on LRP.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Cobby » #656094

Because this requires a code change and we're in policy discussion. It's also not really a good idea to make somewhere public access just because people want the things there. This argument is also a bit odd. Security obviously needs nonantag crime to exist for antags to work, especially on LRP where validhunting is allowed. That's sort of why tiding being looser on LRP works so well.
Yes hence why I made the previous statement of being nonsensical for a policy change (to let people repeatedly break into these locations).

I am fine with nonantag crime, but I havent really seen it actually enforced for a while now. What actually ends up happening is security just ignores your tech storage breakin while they wait for someone to pull out an esword or see you plop a heretic rune as they are too spread thin (separate issue). Brig looks awfully empty these days.

This is assuming I have to believe your premise that I specifically need you (no one else) to break into X location (no where else) every round youre in for antags to work.
Why not exactly? What's wrong with someone breaking into EVA every single round for a space suit because they want to explore space, for like 15 rounds in a row? It doesn't harm anyone, it's technically a crime according to spacelaw but that's exactly why security exists (although many wouldn't bother arresting someone for B&E like that). Same applies to tech storage. Why is it an admin issue, even if it's repeated? How does it make the game worse? It's definitely not enforced like this at all on LRP.
Because its LRP, so I would expect ignoring a fundamental aspect of the game/setting being jobs with access restrictions every round would not be ok. I would also be annoyed as a security player that I have to arrest you every shift for the same reason which locks me out of looking at everyone elses non-antag crime BUT I have to wait until you actually do the thing I know youre going to do or I get banned from the game.

The question SHOULD be if the game wanted you to be able to access the item that way every round, why is it not more accessible? Why do admins have to develop a pro/con analysis of every item on every map and require justification on THEIR end for punishing someone who repeatedly breaks into the same area theyre clearly not meant to be in (or the game would have given them access to the item/room)?

If for instance you wanted a space suit, how are you NOT being problematic by choosing to steal one from the place intended for people to use when the station is trashed every round when there are accessible methods intended for personal use (cargo/bounty)? Because people that are conveniently not you have to foot the bill if they want it replaced?

Speaking purely from a game perspective, you are repeatedly taking an item not meant for you without letting anyone know its missing and likely not using it for the intended purpose, offloading the cost of having to replace it on the people it was meant for initially. Even in the most non-RP thought process I can frame it in it's still a dick move (which again im fine with on occasion but just dont make it a habit). Mind you that you could 100% get around this by receiving permission every round you wanted X item, but that puts the onus on you which im sure youre going to conveniently object to.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #656099

Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:10 pmThis is assuming I have to believe your premise that I specifically need you (no one else) to break into X location (no where else) every round youre in for antags to work.
This isn't my "premise." My premise is that nonantag crime helps mask antag crime, and that by tightening up rules around tiding in general, you are going to reduce nonantag crime in general, and this will make antags more obvious.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:10 pm Because its LRP, so I would expect ignoring a fundamental aspect of the game/setting being jobs with access restrictions every round would not be ok.
Because it's LRP you should expect this would be okay. That's exactly what stay-in-your-lane rules are for - and they don't exist on LRP. You're always allowed to hack into places you don't have access to on LRP, and you don't need some grand justification for it either.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:10 pmI would also be annoyed as a security player that I have to arrest you every shift for the same reason which locks me out of looking at everyone elses non-antag crime BUT I have to wait until you actually do the thing I know youre going to do or I get banned from the game.
Where in the world did you get the idea that sec would be banned for not punishing minor, harmless nonantag crime? And if you get annoyed about having to arrest a tider for breaking into tech storage - the solution is to simply not arrest the tider for breaking into tech storage. Or you can just confiscate the stolen items and flush him down disposals. There is always more nonantag crime than sec can actually punish and that's exactly the thing that gives antags a cover.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:10 pmThe question SHOULD be if the game wanted you to be able to access the item that way every round, why is it not more accessible? Why do admins have to develop a pro/con analysis of every item on every map and require justification on THEIR end for punishing someone who repeatedly breaks into the same area theyre clearly not meant to be in (or the game would have given them access to the item/room)?
I don't see why you're flipping the question on its head. This is a non-problematic behavior. As Zxaber said it's literally like taking a bucket of sand from a beach. The onus is on you to explain why taking the insuls form tech storage is harmful to LRP.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:10 pmIf for instance you wanted a space suit, how are you NOT being problematic by choosing to steal one from the place intended for people to use when the station is trashed every round when there are accessible methods intended for personal use (cargo/bounty)? Because people that are conveniently not you have to foot the bill if they want it replaced?
Because players have the freedom to play the game how they want on LRP, and wasting 10 minutes doing bounties for cargo to buy a space suit when the rounds regularly last 30-40 minutes anyway is a massive timesink. Besides, most rounds don't require all of EVA anyway.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:10 pmSpeaking purely from a game perspective, you are repeatedly taking an item not meant for you without letting anyone know its missing and likely not using it for the intended purpose, offloading the cost of having to replace it on the people it was meant for initially. Even in the most non-RP thought process I can frame it in it's still a dick move (which again im fine with on occasion but just dont make it a habit). Mind you that you could 100% get around this by receiving permission every round you wanted X item, but that puts the onus on you which im sure youre going to conveniently object to.
Except it's not a dick move and no one cares about you taking the gloves from tech storage, and you have yet to provide a single reason how this impacts anyone at all except a vague "but people who actually need it might need to replace it if it's looted." Engineers get their gloves from engineering - the electrical supply crates and roundstart on tables. They don't need the techstorage ones, and going to the HoPline to ask for engie access so you can enter tech storage without breaking spacelaw sounds like something you would only ever want to incentivize on MRP.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Cobby » #656111

I obviously disagree that LRP should be you can just treat it like its entirely a game so its difficult to have a discussion when we disagree on the fundamentals.

No, players should not have the freedom to play the game "how they want", it is still marketed as a Low (not no) RP server. Access levels are extremely barebones in what would constitute playing a role, so I am having a hard time subscribing to the notion that you should be able to break in everywhere every round simply because youre not on "medium" roleplay. If you want a sandbox youre playing on the wrong server, historically speaking.

Again, an admin shouldnt have to justify to the player the pros/cons of an item being stolen to warrant you, the person breaking into X location every round, being punished on a RP game. If it was as gamey as you'd like it to be, then the conversation should be why have access at all except to gatekeep new players who dont know they can be freely ignored at any time for any reason. At the very least we should, again, have a conversation on why EVA or tech storage or X room should have access/the items if they are useless/undefended/etc.

If you think OCCASSIONALLY asking the owner of the area if you could nab X item vs. wordlessly breaking into an area EVERY ROUND (again we are talking about REPEATED BnE from the same person) because there is allegedly no gameplay value in those items being present is a distinction of LRP/MRP, I need to put up a thread changing LRP>MRP and MRP>HRP because thats just absurd to me.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #656112

Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:44 pm Again, an admin shouldnt have to justify to the player the pros/cons of an item being stolen to warrant you, the person breaking into X location every round, being punished on a RP game.
Okay, why not though? The entire point of enforcing rules and punishing players is to create a better environment in which to play. If you can't justify why stealing the gloves from tech storage makes the server worse, then you shouldn't bwoink for it.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:44 pmAt the very least we should, again, have a conversation on why EVA or tech storage or X room should have access/the items if they are useless/undefended/etc.
This conversation is completely out of bounds here, so even if this is true it's out of scope for the discussion. Nor do I think it's a good idea anyway.
Cobby wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:44 pmIf you think OCCASSIONALLY asking the owner of the area if you could nab X item vs. wordlessly breaking into an area EVERY ROUND (again we are talking about REPEATED BnE from the same person) because there is allegedly no gameplay value in those items being present is a distinction of LRP/MRP, I need to put up a thread changing LRP>MRP and MRP>HRP because thats just absurd to me.
Yeah, I legitimately do think that on LRP you can break into places with absolutely no reason so long as you aren't violating rule 1 in the process. You can sign up as an assistant, decide "I want to do xenobiology," hack into xenobiology, and then do this job. As long as the xenobiologists don't mind, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. This happens often in fact with various jobs. MRP is the only ruleset that cares about staying in your lane.

Here's also the issue with the whole "note/ban only if it's repeated" idea. If people are going to start catching bans/notes for doing something repeatedly, they're going to stop doing it at all. Then you have to ask yourself if it's actually a good thing for people to stop doing it at all. I think if people stop hacking into places FNR because they want something because this is notable when done repeatedly, that would genuinely be a terrible development for LRP.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by ChristopherRobin » #656114

An assistant hacking into somewhere that people don't care about is obviously a non-issue. If the xenobiologists don't mind having an assistant hack in, good for them, but if the assistant makes a regular habit of hacking into xenobio, they are inevitably going to cross paths with a xenobiologist who does mind. While MRP style stay-in-your-lane-ness where the very act of hacking into places you don't belong could wind up getting note/bans would be horrible on LRP, I do think there should be something to discourage people from people from regularly disregarding access restrictions whenever they feel like it.

My personal opinion is that people should be allowed to hack for things that they have a use in mind for, but not hack for things that on the excuse that they might be useful in some hypothetical situation later.
For example, a cargo tech grabbing a hand tele to experiment with crate teleportation would be a good reason, an assistant breaking in to grab the hand tele just because spamming portals is funny would be a bad reason.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #656115

ChristopherRobin wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:27 am An assistant hacking into somewhere that people don't care about is obviously a non-issue. If the xenobiologists don't mind having an assistant hack in, good for them, but if the assistant makes a regular habit of hacking into xenobio, they are inevitably going to cross paths with a xenobiologist who does mind. While MRP style stay-in-your-lane-ness where the very act of hacking into places you don't belong could wind up getting note/bans would be horrible on LRP, I do think there should be something to discourage people from people from regularly disregarding access restrictions whenever they feel like it.
If they cross paths with a xenobiologist who does mind, then the xenobiologist can tell them to get out. If they make a fuss and force themselves in anyway, they can now be bwoinked under rule 1 for being a dick. At no point is the act of hacking itself important here.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by ChristopherRobin » #656116

Except that they never would have crossed paths with the xenobiologist in the first place if they weren't hacking where they please. There is no requirement that they leave when the xenobiologist tells them to get out, they can even match the level of escalation that the xenobiologist uses to forcibly remove them (thankfully they can't escalate against the xenobiologist themselves). The only way this would fall under rule 1 is if there is evidence that the hacker is doing this just to interfere with the xenobiologist or if someone breaks escalation policy.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Archie700 » #656119

If someone is going to hack into xenobiology without asking the captain, HoP, the RD, the AI or the xenobiologist, then I would really want to question his intent.

The only time where it is completely ok if if none of these people respond to him or none of them are here.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by sinfulbliss » #656121

ChristopherRobin wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:53 am There is no requirement that they leave when the xenobiologist tells them to get out, they can even match the level of escalation that the xenobiologist uses to forcibly remove them (thankfully they can't escalate against the xenobiologist themselves). The only way this would fall under rule 1 is if there is evidence that the hacker is doing this just to interfere with the xenobiologist or if someone breaks escalation policy.
Escalation Rules wrote:As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job.
This is accounted for in escalation policy. If you're interfering in their ability to do their job, and you're the instigator in the conflict, and you don't even have a valid reason, then you're breaking escalation. Hacking into xenobio wouldn't be okay in your scenario because, presumably, they are doing it FNR and disrupting the xenobiologist from doing their job in the process.
Archie700 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:41 am If someone is going to hack into xenobiology without asking the captain, HoP, the RD, the AI or the xenobiologist, then I would really want to question his intent.

The only time where it is completely ok if if none of these people respond to him or none of them are here.
His intent: he wants to be in xenobiology. If no one has an issue with this, which is often the case, then there is absolutely no reason to turn it into an OOC issue and bwoink for it. If someone does have a problem with it, the conflict follows standard escalation with him as the instigator.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by Archie700 » #656122

I never said it should be an OOC issue, only saying that doing this over literally any other way and not expecting to be beaten up IC doesn't endear you to anything.

But we're getting way beyond the scope of the argument, which is Tech Storage, EVA (honestly no one should care unless someone takes all the suits and burns them) and the teleporter (teleportation isn't really that bad).

The main issue is, at what point does constantly breaking into tech storage become excessive and how do we keep track of it until it becomes an issue?

It's very difficult to keep track of a player and his behaviour across multiple rounds besides secret notes and telling other admins and every admin will have different opinions.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by ChristopherRobin » #656127

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:02 am . . .presumably, they are doing it FNR. . .His intent: he wants to be in xenobiology. . . .
Having your cake and eating it too a little bit there.

The hacker started the conflict by hacking into xenobiology in the first place, which means if he had no good reason then the hacking itself could be considered a violation of escalation policy through initiating conflicts of trespassing. This would effectively mean that escalation policy already prevents people from hacking into places without a good reason, and the mental gymnastics required for this conclusion would be better clarified with a new ruling.

If you don't consider the act of hacking to be the beginning of the conflict, then the conflict begins by the xenobiologist's attempt to remove the hacker. Trespassing is a fine reason for the xenobiologist to start the conflict, and once again, the hacker is allowed to match escalation against themselves.

Not to mention that's a lot of ands that have to line up for the hacker to be breaching escalation. If the hacker wanted to do xenobio and the xenobiologist simply doesn't want an assistant in their lab, that doesn't mean the hacker is being disruptive simply because they insist on being in xenobiology.
Archie700 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:20 am The main issue is, at what point does constantly breaking into tech storage become excessive and how do we keep track of it until it becomes an issue?
My proposition is that when an admin sees someone breaking into somewhere with no clear reason, they simply ask the hacker what their reason is.
If they provide a good one? All good, no harm no foul.
If they can't provide one without getting into hypotheticals or the fact that space suits look cool? They should get a note to remind them to only bust into EVA/Teleporter/Techstorage and steal stuff if they have a use for it. Otherwise just leave it there for people that do.
I don't see why breaking into places is an issue, as long as there is a reason to be doing so, and not just doing it out of habit/it's cool/it's funny/there might be a reason later.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by enginseer-42 » #656650

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:16 pmI don't see why you're flipping the question on its head. This is a non-problematic behavior. As Zxaber said it's literally like taking a bucket of sand from a beach. The onus is on you to explain why taking the insuls form tech storage is harmful to LRP.

Except it's not a dick move and no one cares about you taking the gloves from tech storage, and you have yet to provide a single reason how this impacts anyone at all except a vague "but people who actually need it might need to replace it if it's looted." Engineers get their gloves from engineering - the electrical supply crates and roundstart on tables. They don't need the techstorage ones, and going to the HoPline to ask for engie access so you can enter tech storage without breaking spacelaw sounds like something you would only ever want to incentivize on MRP.
I wouldn't say it's entirely non-problematic. More than engineering has access to that room, and hypothetically those with access should be able to use the things within. For much the same reason that immediately round start running into

I at least don't usually bother to go there for the insuls when playing a roboticist since it's easier to just roll the dice when hacking the robodrobe and fix yourself up afterwards if you get shocked than fight the mob of every assistant on the station going after the gloves even though robo's have access and assistants don't.

That's at least one job that has access to Tech Storage, and has reason to want to use the gloves, that often as not cannot use them because they're stolen within a minute or two every round.

It's a relatively minor thing. But it's still a thing.

Can't say I agree that it should be a bwoinkable or bannable offense to bust in and take the insuls. But it's not quite as much of a non-problem as you say.
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Re: Roundstart tech storage tiding, opening EVA/teleporter shutters, and similar forms of roundstart shittery.

Post by spookuni » #667852

We've decided to not make major changes to the current policy regarding tiding - players can break into places to acquire items, but excessively repeated tiding can be actioned by admins.

As Cobby has mentioned, if you're reliably breaking into an area every single round, you're doing it too much.

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