/tg/Station 13

My coworker died to a tider that we mutually fought right outside science. As a scientist on lowishpop I borged him. The admin (Richie99) requested that in the future I take them to medbay instead.

I quote
"In the future, do try to give bodies the ol' revive if ya can. After all borging someone does dramatically change the round for them" (10 seconds post borging)
"Also, if you get bwoinked for forcibly borging someone that ain't a tot/criminal etc I'd suggest taking it on yourself to undo said borgning" (about 10 minutes later)

When I said I was making the policy discussion thread because I didn't agree their reasoning on why it's bad is

"Fair enough. Way I've always been given to understand is that it's more or less a step just above round removal due to the way in which it forcibly changes someone's round."

I feel like while this is unfortunate to get turned into a borg, if you don't like it don't become a corpse.

because force borging is like he already said: "in which it forcibly changes someone's round.", its always been bad to do unless you're an antag

i would consider it more shit to be sitting with a rotten body in a corner of medbay while they try to make meth for 20 minutes (real story)
ive seen people lately putting people into mmis , but that got hate somehow too, even though they are able to talk then

forceborging as non-antag is mostly bad though if done on another non antag, even though i myself dont give a damn
you could always give them laws directly if they are unsynced to give them more freedom while you (or medbay, or heck maybe even the borged one themselves) work on the corpse

tl:dr better not, too much people hate silicons

Absolutely. I don't know what map it was, but science and medbay are usually close to eachother. There is no good reason to borg someone instead of reviving them aside from "there is literally nobody with medbay access, nobody can give me medbay access to fix this, and this body is absolutely fucked." If they wanted to be a cyborg, they would sign up to be a cyborg.

By forcibly cyborgifying someone you force them into a different role than what they were previously, screwing over any possible gimmick or RP they had going on in the round to make them every human's butler. Not everybody finds the role fun, and most people don't want to drop what they were doing to spontaneously become a cyborg.

Nabski wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:02 am I feel like while this is unfortunate to get turned into a borg, if you don't like it don't become a corpse.

I feel like you're trolling, so I'm just going to come out and ask. Are you trolling?

I am not trolling.

The majority of cyborg media is "Oh I'm so sad I got turned into a cyborg, it made me stronger but now I'm more limited. Sure it saved my life but how can I LOVEEEEE". This is absolutely the essence of that.

Why should a jobs key feature be locked behind antag/valids being delivered to them/positronics.

The dead have no rights. Robotics and paramedics should be racing to corpses to see who can find it first.

I hate that it's even considered bad form to turn dead bodies into burgers now, but I'm not going to try to argue that point.

If someone wants to be a borg they can use the ectosniffer and join a posibrain so yeah I'd say it's wrong.

Most people don't like playing as a borg for the rest of the round, so doing it for no reason is rightfully a rule 1 violation and should stay as one. Borging someone is a punishment, and punishing someone for no reason as a non-antag is being a dick.

Here's what I've personally done while playing. If their body is like completely fucked to the point where it's easier to just implant their brain in a new body, think like "husk and medbay is a hole, evac imminent", I tend to MMI (using mannitol if needed) them just so I can ask them what they want. If they wanna become a borgo, I'll do that for them. If they wanna try and get back in the game in a new body, I'll do that as best as I can. Sometimes they wanna get in a mech, and that's cool too if I have a spare one (very uncommon). If you're intending to borg them, you're going to MMI them anyways, and so why not ask while you're at it? At least in an MMI you aren't fucking up super-hard by slaving them to a lawset when they want it, you can just speak to them about life and figure out the best way to put them back in the shift.

I don't think you should debrain someone trivially though, like you should have a clear reason (or at least can be considered a "Good Samaritan").

Nabski wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:56 am I am not trolling.

The dead have no rights. Robotics and paramedics should be racing to corpses to see who can find it first.

I hate that it's even considered bad form to turn dead bodies into burgers now, but I'm not going to try to argue that point.

this is 100% bait or you're a hardcore shitter that deserves to be banned

One of my favorite stories from one of my earlier shifts was when I found the corpse of a janitor as mime. Somehow, a roboticist convinced me to let him borg the jani, probably with some "weakness of flesh" speech. Me and the jani-borg proceeded to spend the rest of the shift investigating how his now-forgotten past life came to an abrupt end. Whole situation provided a great opportunity for RP, everyone was a good sport about it, and many shitty robo-cop jokes were made.

While standard revival is definitely superior to borging, I don't think using borging as a method of reviving someone should be treated like force-borging at all. It provides a way of bringing someone back into the round and should probably be viewed as being less-good than revival rather than outright bad.

Depends on rank. Not gonna borg the captain or Head of Security, but if it's a dead assistant, and there's a line of corpses in the medbay, I'll take them to get borged.

If it seems even remotely unlikely that medbay will actually handle them, slap that fucker in the MMI at least so they can talk and stuff.

yes if medical is unable to revive them then put them in an MMI and ask, otherwise borging someone who doesnt want to be borged is bad

Being stuck dead in medbay waiting ten to fifteen minutes for the incompetent jackasses to get around to and finish medically torturing my corpse so I can come to life and be medically tortured for another five straight minutes is 10 times worse to me than being swiftly put into an MMI so I can start whinging at the living again and maybe get borged or rezzed.

in fact being stuck in an incompetent medbay is worse than being spaced because at least then I can go do something else or observe other players or play on another server rather than being stuck in my body hoping that god please a competent doctor will SURELY come along soon right?

If they go borg just order them to prep their own body and dismantle once they healed themselves up.

So long as you will put them back into their body afterwards you should be able to freely borg someone.

If medical is doing perfectly fine and you take them to robotics anyways without getting an ok, thats just being cringe.

I would be really sad if this became rules enforced instead of being an IC issue.

This is kind of an IC issue thing? I don't see a huge problem with it unless someone made it exceedingly clear they didn't want to be a borg.

I'm of the mindset that Medical should be trying to revive someone, but if they're stretched too thin, Robotics can grab a corpse and toss them in a borg instead. Just so long as they can be put back if they don't like the glorious embrace of the machine spirit.

borgs cant ask to be returned tothe body so the person would have to make it clear theyre doing it prior to giving them borg (aka mmi).

Frankly youre better off just leaving them to rot as a player but I think if its in good faith you wont get in trouble.

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:12 pm Just so long as they can be put back if they don't like the glorious embrace of the machine spirit.

The problem becomes that a borg wishing to be deconstructed back into a human encroaches on self-preservation law, so they couldn't really ask, right?

I miss when sec would forceborg antags instead of atomising the brain to minimize risk.

Is it against the rules? As far as I understand, no.

Is it a dick move? Yes.

Borgs cannot ask to be unborged, and I don't think they're allowed to immediately suicide, so think of this from the dead players' perspective: Either DNR so you can't be borged, hope they leave you in an MMI long enough to object (and that they'll bother to listen/care), or get borged. That doesn't sound very fun. Maybe it wouldn't be an issue if silicon policy had more protections for this, but it doesn't. Once you're borged, you're a slave to your laws, and the invisible laws of silicon policy.

Administrately we usually approach forceborging as equivalent to round removal. If you're not valid to round remove them, you're not valid to forceborg them.

Consensual borging is fine. Getting consent via MMI is trivial and MMI is a pre-requisite to borging.

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:05 pm Is it against the rules? As far as I understand, no.

Is it a dick move? Yes.

Dick moves are explicitly against the rules anon.

I was always under the implication that forceborging was taking someone alive, and forcing them to become a borg. Am I just wrong and it's ANYTIME a person becomes a borg and you didn't ask "do you want to be a borg" first it was forceborging?

I dislike the further restrictions on borging because it further promotes just using the funny "whoops, found a well-hidden blob 10 seconds after leaving robotics" posibrain cubes.
Also, this isn't round removal, gibbing you and making a burger out of your brain is round removal. Spacing someone's corpse is almost round removal. This is inconveniencing someone else which should be entirely justifiable if the difference between reviving them and borging them would inconvenience you.
I'd go as far as saying that having your corpse rerouted to find itself on robotics' operating table and being made to pilot the glorified tin can is one of the last enduring consequences for losing of which we need more.

Forcing someone to become a borg when they don't want to be one is generally considered forceborging.

Forcing someone to be a borg is considered equivalent to round removal. It is not round removal, but if you can't validly round remove someone then you probably can't validly borg them without their consent. That means antags can do it. Non-antags can do it to antags. But non-antags should not be doing it to non-antags when they otherwise would not have been able to round remove that person.

Taking someone's brain out of their body for any purpose except to expedite or triage their future revival as a human is generally bad. Bodies without brains are basically fair game to anyone to grief, steal from, etc. - There's absolutely no indication that the body belongs to a player that is ever returning to it (or the shift). It is very easy for something to go wrong to a debrained body. Morgue tray. Destroyed or looted for working organs. That risk alone makes debraining a non-antag exceptionally risky with respect to the rules/ruining someone's shift unprompted.

The excuse of it being a convenient method of bringing a non-antag back into the shift basically doesn't fly in this scenario, and if a non-antag would rather remain dead than be borged then you shouldn't be forcing that choice on them (unless antag).

The final nail in the coffin is that brain in MMI is a pre-req to borging. To find out what the brain's owner wants is trivial and covers your ass completely.

Huh, that definition just seems so wrong to me and there are so many times in the past that I could have cried about turning into a borg and forced them to . . . return me to being a corpse?

Timber, you are implying the "better" thing to do here would be to just leave the corpse on the floor and hope medbay gets around to the call out that I made about it four minutes prior and had no action or response to. The assistant that he fought with remained on the floor where he died until the round ended, so I really doubt that leaving him there would have returned him to the round.

The brains owners was completely unresponsive in the MMI.

Unless you have an IC reason, if the MMI doesn't consent, you should take it back to medbay so THEY take care of it.

Yes, it IS a dick move to borg someone without consent if you're not antag. Borging =/= reviving.

Justified without consent is, for example, when security brings you a brain of a tot/heretic/shitter/whatever for borging, who would've been otherwise round removed. And even then you can make a call to keep your hands clean and not do it.

I think the definition of "don't be dick" is watered down way too much. It seems everyone wants every crewmember to be model citizens nowadays. Minor dickery on a level such as this is what makes rounds interesting in the first place.

Do cyborgs care about MMI humans?

a brain in a mmi is just a brain

Side note, what about non-antag chaplains who use the soul stone on the first corpse they come across?

ChristopherRobin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:38 pm Side note, what about non-antag chaplains who use the soul stone on the first corpse they come across?

actual dickery

I guess there's the obvious midpoint which most people would actually do of "put the brain in an MMI, ask it if it wants to be a borg or a mech, stick it back in the body and throw it to the MDs if they say no"

ChristopherRobin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:38 pm Side note, what about non-antag chaplains who use the soul stone on the first corpse they come across?

Stance in 2017:

Soulstoned someone who didn't want to be soulstoned as nonantag chaplain. Said they didn't know how it worked and it would give a prompt if they wanted to be sharded. Remove in a few weeks or make non-secret if they don't act up with this again.

(Lol, secret note?)

Stance in 2018:

Warned not to soul stone people super quick after a fight with another player when the other player threw a toy alien at him

Stance in 2020:

Banned from the server for 1440 minutes - As a chaplain, tried to deconvert a suspected cultist with holy water, then when it didnt work soulstoned him. The guy just had naturally red eyes. Asked for permission in ahelps, but didnt wait for an answer and did so anyway.

Stance in 2021:

As a non-antag chaplain, saw the clown shoot himself with a risky russian revolver in the medbay treatment room, then proceeded to soulstone shard them. Round removing isn't very cool.

Stance in 2022:

Banned from the server for 1 day - As a non-antagonist Chaplain, justifiaby killed an Assistant for killing and spacing their pet Royal Rat. However, immediately after, they soul stoned the assistant, functionally round removing them. Recognizes this as an overescalation on their part, and was understanding in ahelps.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:06 am

Spoiler:

ChristopherRobin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:38 pm Side note, what about non-antag chaplains who use the soul stone on the first corpse they come across?

Stance in 2017:

Soulstoned someone who didn't want to be soulstoned as nonantag chaplain. Said they didn't know how it worked and it would give a prompt if they wanted to be sharded. Remove in a few weeks or make non-secret if they don't act up with this again.

(Lol, secret note?)

Stance in 2018:

Warned not to soul stone people super quick after a fight with another player when the other player threw a toy alien at him

Stance in 2020:

Banned from the server for 1440 minutes - As a chaplain, tried to deconvert a suspected cultist with holy water, then when it didnt work soulstoned him. The guy just had naturally red eyes. Asked for permission in ahelps, but didnt wait for an answer and did so anyway.

Stance in 2021:

As a non-antag chaplain, saw the clown shoot himself with a risky russian revolver in the medbay treatment room, then proceeded to soulstone shard them. Round removing isn't very cool.

Stance in 2022:

Banned from the server for 1 day - As a non-antagonist Chaplain, justifiaby killed an Assistant for killing and spacing their pet Royal Rat. However, immediately after, they soul stoned the assistant, functionally round removing them. Recognizes this as an overescalation on their part, and was understanding in ahelps.

Is a better answer than

Cobby wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:52 pm actual dickery

Thanks for the info.

should I have said "not allowed" or did you just like the citations?

My apologies, I was thinking you wanted reassurance it wasnt ok vs. wanting an explanation as to why it isnt

laconic dickery

Forceborging people as a non-antagonist where other options exist is extremely griefy, and should be avoided - as Timber has mentioned putting the potential borgee's brain in an MMI is a necessary step in that path to borging someone, finding out if the patient is fine with being borged as an alternative to revival is trivial and doing it anyway as a non-antag is a massive dick move.

Roboticists are fully allowed to offer borgings as an alternative to revival to dead people at their leisure, so long as they're not actively making revival harder if their patient says no.

Spook: As above
Rave: Agree with above
San: Agree with above