/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:49 am**

This mostly applies to MRP since there's a greater emphasis on playing a reasonable character, and I'm unsure if it's seen as an issue on LRP.

So, what is this about exactly? Well, I'm not here to go out of the way to kill botanists who grab a few deathnettles or a security officer swapping their disabler for an egun. What I'm after is people dragging cannisters full of superheated plasma, a maxcap, hellfoam grenades, or any other non-antagonist accessible EORG tools onto the shuttle.

Well, the reason I want this disallowed as a proper ruling is because this kind of behavior is already against the rules.

2. Do not use information gained outside of in-character means.
The fact that EORG exists is out-of-character information, and a character just deciding to bring a maxcap hooked up to a health sensor to Central Command, or a full tank of deadly gas into the emergency shuttle is painfully OOC. There's never any reason for it beyond "I want to blow things up at EORG" which is against rule 2.

On MRP, there's also the below rules that could also apply here.
8. Don’t use OOC information or knowledge that your character would not reasonably be aware of just to give yourself an advantage.
and
9. Play as a coherent, believable character.

Any thoughts on this? Should we kill the especially blatant EORG prep? Is it too fun to see things explode?

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:52 am**

It's fine IMO as long as you don't use it in round

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:57 am**

I think its honestly fine, specially if you are a non-antag scientist that has 5 maxcaps you made you WISH you could use, but cant. Makes the effort worth it. Also, I love it when random shit happens at EORG.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:40 am**

I think this should apply to LRP too. It is completely NRP behaviour, and I think people's greed to do maximum grief for EORG is becoming unhealthy for EORG and the shuttle. Sometimes I see people blatantly say "it's okay, it's for EORG" in IC when I stop them, and like, that's so cringe, how am I supposed to respond to that?

The admins will probably blow everyone up for EORG anyways, so there's no point in bringing explosives to the shuttle as a nonantag.

Semi related, but I think people pulling out weapons/batoning others 0.5 seconds before round end should get punished too. I think some people are just too eager to grief for EORG, and admins should start bwoinking people that seem to be too eager and ruining the roleplaying experience for the near end of the round.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:09 am**

I consider any of the following acceptable:

- Do not do the EORG prep

- Do EORG prep, but in a way that it isn't overly visible and/or disruptive to everyone around you. EORG has real value as a method of release for the Funny Gamer Gear that you acquired but didn't get an excuse to use in-round - stolen guns, cybernetic upgrades, emergency EMPs, mechs, etc. - but the flip side of that is that you need to exercise restraint about getting Stuff that you don't have normal access to. Roboticists should EORG with mechs, not MDs. Chemists should EORG with grenades, not assistants. Nobody should EORG with a supermatter shard unless they're extraordinarily confident they can do it safely, because if something goes fucky with it EORG is not an excuse for bringing a shard onto the shuttle. And so on.

- Do EORG prep in a way that is obvious, but is also very funny, so people don't get mad at you unless they're unnecessarily uptight. Like if you make a maxcap, gift wrap it, and label it "Cake for CentCom" I won't be thaaaat mad, even if it goes off early from others messing with it (as long as you did a serious, reasonable best effort to prevent this)

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:32 am**

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:09 am
- Do EORG prep, but in a way that it isn't overly visible and/or disruptive to everyone around you. EORG has real value as a method of release for the Funny Gamer Gear that you acquired but didn't get an excuse to use in-round - stolen guns, cybernetic upgrades, emergency EMPs, mechs, etc. - but the flip side of that is that you need to exercise restraint about getting Stuff that you don't have normal access to. Roboticists should EORG with mechs, not MDs. Chemists should EORG with grenades, not assistants. Nobody should EORG with a supermatter shard unless they're extraordinarily confident they can do it safely, because if something goes fucky with it EORG is not an excuse for bringing a shard onto the shuttle. And so on.

The second point here is a little iffy for me personally, namely "bringing a supermatter shard onto the shuttle."
I'm not a fan of super obvious blatant "this is for EOR" stuff like this because it is that Rule 2 issue of "oh the only reason he brought this along was because his OOC self knows that he's allowed to open it without consequence". At the very least in example 3 you're trying to conceal it.

Another (semi) unrelated point to mention, isn't EORG more fun if you're not instantly being deleted by a maxcap and you get to run into the CC dock to see what admins are up to/use your funny weapon/mech/whatever.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:42 am**

Have you seen how much these maxcaps sell for? Ghost writing offers 5digit figures for even the smallest explosives and they were only in the adjacent sector.
If I can smuggle this baby back to CC without anyone stealing it, I could put it on the open/black market for 6-7 figs easy, syndicate would buy it right up and I would be rich in no time.
I'm sure that atmos tech with his star-in-a-can has the same idea, no doubt there are plenty of eccentrics who would pay top dollar for a novelty like that.
And that pyromaniac chemist and his grenades? Hes already been questioned by security this shift; said he has those for self-defense, and they seemed to believe him.
Good fortune that he hasn't found himself in a self-defense situation yet. Nobody has seen him throw one yet and if this flight back to CC goes well, he probably never will.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:52 am**

EORG is anarchy! You should be proud to have whatever you brought, and if you're bored and you just want to spend a shift prepping for EORG, all the power to you--as long as it's keeping people (you!) active on the server and not pissing anybody off, it's a net positive.

Another (semi) unrelated point to mention, isn't EORG more fun if you're not instantly being deleted by a maxcap and you get to run into the CC dock to see what admins are up to/use your funny weapon/mech/whatever.

A maxcap making it to EORG is the equivalent of the shuttle landing at the syndicate base after you've prepped an admin EORG. It's the administrative version of rule ten. Losing is fun :^).

I think current policy handles everything here as-is just fine*.

* on LRP

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:26 am**

Scriptis wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:52 am EORG is anarchy! You should be proud to have whatever you brought, and if you're bored and you just want to spend a shift prepping for EORG, all the power to you--as long as it's keeping people (you!) active on the server and not pissing anybody off, it's a net positive.

Another (semi) unrelated point to mention, isn't EORG more fun if you're not instantly being deleted by a maxcap and you get to run into the CC dock to see what admins are up to/use your funny weapon/mech/whatever.
A maxcap making it to EORG is the equivalent of the shuttle landing at the syndicate base after you've prepped an admin EORG. It's the administrative version of rule ten. Losing is fun :^).

I think current policy handles everything here as-is just fine*.

* on LRP

I don't think that addresses the fact of EORG prep very clearly being a breach in Rule 2 that's just accepted.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:30 am**

Players spending their round gathering items to kill the most amount of people at the end of the round do not contribute positively to rounds, in my experience. They sit there in their offices making WMDs without anyone interacting with them. (Read: Toxins and Atmos, Sometimes Robotics) Rule 2 should absolutely be further enforced there. Also, "I'm selling it to centcom" is a very flimsy excuse for anyone looking to bring their hellfire canisters or unlocked crate of maxcaps onto the shuttle, and is commonly used by people who do such to rack up body count or set off the signaler the instant the shuttle docks at centcom.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:14 am**

I thought this was already the rules? You're not allowed to prepare for EORG in a way that doesn't make reasonable sense. Can't bring a maxcap onto the shuttle, etc. Just people usually only find out when it goes wrong.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:18 am**

Scriptis wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:52 am EORG is anarchy! You should be proud to have whatever you brought, and if you're bored and you just want to spend a shift prepping for EORG, all the power to you--as long as it's keeping people (you!) active on the server and not pissing anybody off, it's a net positive.

aka: Mysterious fantasy players who in fact deliver nothing except a itchy trigger finger before the shuttle docks.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:40 am**

I think it's fine to a degree. If you're making a grenade or two to toss during the round end, that's fine by me, but you gotta understand that if someone gets a hold of it and uses it, you're at least a little to blame.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:34 am**

policy seems fine the way it is now. I'd rather people do some low-key prep for the end of the round and admins taking any sort of action if they do something very unreasonable such as dragging an entire shard on the shuttle than a policy change and admins having to bwoink half of the shuttle for bringing things like a box of flashbangs or other items

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:00 am**

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:34 am policy seems fine the way it is now. I'd rather people do some low-key prep for the end of the round and admins taking any sort of action if they do something very unreasonable such as dragging an entire shard on the shuttle than a policy change and admins having to bwoink half of the shuttle for bringing things like a box of flashbangs or other items

I feel like it's the difference of if you had any reason to have it other than just EORG. A box of flashbangs has use, that's a non-lethal defense tool. It's reasonable for Sec to have, but on LRP you also have greys with stun batons, so it's whatever.

Bringing a maxcap on the shuttle, or something, though? Why do you have that? Solely for EORG. There's no other situation you can use it, and that's a problem.

(Though I think Roboticists and Mechs are different)

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:21 am**

I personally don't mind the maxcaps and shit going off at the end of the round, I think it's hilarious and totally in the spirit of space station 13. However, even if you totally disagree with that, I'd like to bring up this point I heard someone else make earlier: trying to regulate EORG is something that would take a relatively large amount of administrative resources for a relatively small benefit. In addition, it would also lead to more delayed roundstarts as these tickets would often have to be handled at the end of rounds.

I think the benefit to be gained is essentially nonexistent. But even if you think there is some benefit, I think it's pretty obvious that it's a small one. EORG prep is not like some huge issue that is ruining people's rounds, which is the reason why it has gone mostly unregulated so far.

To the people saying "it's more fun to be able to fight individually than just getting maxcapped": you can still do that. It's not like every single round ends with the entire shuttle getting annihilated. I have seen PLENTY of small-scale fights during EORG. Sometimes everything explodes, sometimes only some things explode, sometimes nothing explodes and it's just a brawl. It's chaotic and unpredictable. That's kind of the point: it's a chance to let out all the chaos of the round that has been bottled up the whole time.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:41 pm**

Its MRP what is stopping security from also playing reasonable characters that arrest people for creating workplace hazards? For example bringing something dangerous onto the shuttle that creates EORG.

Why create even less content for security via policy? I'd much rather see security dealing with """space law""" type crimes being promoted more than I would see this be prevented and kill off some fun possibilities via policy.

If someone is blatantly making bombs or bringing DANGEROUS canisters of MURDER GAS onto a shuttle like that what is preventing the crew from acting reasonably and freaking out to deal with the issue? Why not scold people for not reasonably freaking out about the fact that they are sitting next to a live bomb at this point.

I don't factor the concepts of being reasonable, coherent, or believable into this at all. Its 100% believable that someone might smuggle something dangerous out of the workplace. There is nothing incoherent about them doing it, and being a 'nice and reasonable person' isn't a game requirement.

Real life realism is not required, and you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.) There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it.

This honestly feels like a roleplay issue, is creating a policy to limit things actually going to encourage people to roleplay about it anymore than they currently are? What is this actually going to accomplish? I'd rather be asking why sec players are not dealing with the workplace hazards and what would enable them to.

Considering rule two:

Similar to how characters are allowed to know everything about in-game mechanics or antagonists under rule 2, characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used.

The crew can know about the in-game mechanic (Every in-game mechanic for that matter) of evacuation to centcom. If you want to be a nerd about it, you could say they know about it from other station evacs hitting the news over priority announcements and watching the space news or whatever. In ye olde day blue alert at roundstart got PR'd in as an IC nod and justification that things were going to go badly today and that there might just be traitors on board.

So, what makes it a rule 2 breach?

This also doesn't feel like it applies to RP 8 in the absolute slightest. What does EORG have to do with powergaming?

Do not powergame. Powergaming is gearing up or preparing in other ways to face an issue that is not related to your job and is not currently a credible threat. Someone going missing on the station, and then you making a stunprod to wield whenever you go into maint is powergaming. However; knowing there have been murders occurring across the station, and grabbing a stunprod while you go to fix wires in maint is fine.

When the bar gets set like it has been every other crime that isn't antag specific stops mattering and people ignore them or consider them to be expected. Reinforcing that by taking a knife to even more of that in-between content doesn't help.

What is to say this would not create yet another red flag 'has to be an antag to be doing this' situation?

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:18 pm**

Because when people try they get bitched at. People don't stop it, they're not going to start stopping out all of a sudden out of the blue, so the only option is to take the smart approach because Server Culture interferes.

I got bitched at for taking someone's EORG maxcap off of them. So why would I bother doing that again? I don't want to get bitched out.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:21 pm**

In OOC or IC? Ahelps?

There sounds like there is far more to that story.

Not everyone is a nice person.

Most people are difficult people.

Some people are snakes.

That means not everyone is going to just bow their heads politely. Some people are going to complain. Some are going to stab you in the back about it.

Why would that human nature be a reason to do this?

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:29 pm**

I'm hesitant to ahelp the prep, save the most egregious ones, because it holds the entire server hostage for the duration of that ticket, made right as the round should be ending.
I would think the more significant matter is that a lot of EORG prep is conveniently ready for a significant portion of the round, though I have no idea how often it seriously impacts rounds, but at that point it's just powergaming.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:34 pm**

The bulk of conversation seems to be focused around players that open-carry their EoRG devices. I don't think anything but the absolute extreme minority even cares about the EoRG device that is carefully concealed, that nobody can see.

The argument from players against them enforcing this ICly can probably summarised as: It is not fun to try and deal with players that openly build or carry EoRG devices ICly from an RP perspective, because these people prioritise the OOC concept of EoRG over RP/IC reasonings.

Trying to get these two sets of people to play nice with eachother is probably going to do more harm than good. Unless you enjoy dealing with really complex, nuanced and intricate "they metagrudging" tickets every shift.

One set care about the RP environment above all else, even to the detriment of more gamey fun.
The other set care about their gamey fun above all else, even to the detriment of the RP environment.

If it was as simple as "just deal with them IC" I think more people would have said "here's how I handle this, simple IC arrest and they're usually super cool and understanding about it". I don't think this is the reality when your boots are on the ground and you're trying to play a coherent character reacting to the world around them with some level of authenticity.

And I know I'm making a sweeping generalisation where you're all gonna jump in with "BUT WHAT ABOUT X PLAYER?" and to that I say "X obvs ain't the problem, they are the edge-case minority of players that do understand why their EoRG device is being confiscated on the shuttle".

Ultimately where most people fall will depend on if they think MRP should be "RPG, protecting RP fun but without compromising the Game aspect" or "RPG, protecting the Game aspect but without compromising the RP fun".

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:40 pm**

I think it'd be more healthy to stop people blatantly prepping for EORG, the number of times i've seen non-antags carrying trit canisters and TTVs onto the shuttle, with their only response for why they have that as "Its for when we dock" is really annoying and usually leads to someone murdering them before the shuttle docks. For a while we actually had admins cracking down on EORG prep then all of a sudden the ruling changed.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:40 pm**

I think it'd be more healthy to stop people blatantly prepping for EORG, the number of times i've seen non-antags carrying trit canisters and TTVs onto the shuttle, with their only response for why they have that as "Its for when we dock" is really annoying and usually leads to someone murdering them before the shuttle docks. For a while we actually had admins cracking down on EORG prep then all of a sudden the ruling changed.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:16 pm**

From what I've seen in the thread, I can generally agree that:

Security should be encouraged to handle blatant EORG prep because people bringing bombs into the shuttle is insane.

Admin Action against unconcealed blatant EORG prep already falls in line with Rule 2

Sometimes Centcom instantly exploding is funny!

Do we think a headmin ruling solidifying this would be a positive thing to {encourage players to find an interesting IC reason for their actions/discourage players from spending their entire shift prepping for one minute of funny gamer play/encourage admins to have conversations with people who are breaking rule 2 in a roundabout way they may not even be aware of}?

Should we add something to space law in order to encourage security officers to also handle this ICly?

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:24 pm**

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:16 pm
Admin Action against unconcealed blatant EORG prep already falls in line with Rule 2

Please clarify this. I'm not seeing anything that makes it a rule 2 violation or anything about that from anyone in this thread.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:11 pm**

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:24 pm
Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:16 pm
Admin Action against unconcealed blatant EORG prep already falls in line with Rule 2

Please clarify this. I'm not seeing anything that makes it a rule 2 violation or anything about that from anyone in this thread.

The reason people have maxcaps/bombs/whatever is because they know EORG is coming and prepare for it. Your character does not know EORG exists, only the OOC player does.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:56 pm**

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:11 pm
Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:24 pm
Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:16 pm
Admin Action against unconcealed blatant EORG prep already falls in line with Rule 2

Please clarify this. I'm not seeing anything that makes it a rule 2 violation or anything about that from anyone in this thread.
The reason people have maxcaps/bombs/whatever is because they know EORG is coming and prepare for it. Your character does not know EORG exists, only the OOC player does.

Are the crew specifically allowed to know about ALL game mechanics?
If so, does that knowledge include knowing how game mechanics might play out?

Is evacuation to centcom is considered a game mechanic?

Is knowing that arriving at centcom being the end of the round part of a game mechanic?
If so, is knowing of the centcom/evac mechanic being the end of the round/dangerous and preparing for said mechanic under the facet of the rules allowing for knowledge of all mechanics considered metagaming?

The idea that knowing EORG and centcom is coming and preparing for it as part of evac being a rule 2 violation opens up plenty of questions.

There is little public history for appeals regarding EORG.
I am unable to find any appeals for preparing for EORG over the course of the years.
There are appeals for premature EORG, mistiming EORG, etc.
There is a precedent for:

Rules still apply until the emergency escape shuttle has reached Centcom and the round-end antagonist report has appeared. When the shuttle has reached Centcom, players are free to act as per lone antagonists, detailed in Rule 4. Non-antagonist grief upon the shuttle, from spamming flashbangs for no reason to spraying space lube, can be met with instant 5 (five) minute bans or more.

Full rule 2 and precedents for reference:

2. Do not use information gained outside of in-character means.

I.e. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Discord, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

Rule 2 Precedents

Metacomms, the use of methods of communication outside of SS13 IC channels, is a very serious rule violation and may be met with permanent bans for all related accounts. If players are sharing the same IP or know each other in real life or the like, inform the admins first, otherwise it may look suspicious. Players are allowed to introduce new players that they know to the game but all communication and explanations should be done in game if possible. Admins can also help in these situations if requested.
Similar to how characters are allowed to know everything about in-game mechanics or antagonists under rule 2, characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used.
Character friendships should not be exploitative in nature or be used to gain an unfair advantage. Having an IC friendship with another player does not, for example, justify giving them all-access each round.
Atmos techs are not allowed to edit atmos at roundstart so that the AI cannot use it for malicious purposes. While this might not make sense IC, it's a necessary OOC precedent for some game mechanics to work. Atmos techs are allowed if they have any reasonable suspicion of the AI being rogue.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:54 pm**

While rules somewhat stop applying at EORG, this isn't about EORG but about the actions taken BEFORE EORG preparing for it. Which, because rules still apply, is still a breach of Rule 2 because they are taking knowledge of an OOC concept (everyone gets to kill eachother) into IC.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:04 am**

That honestly just seems like a loophole man, it's either ok or it's not. Going all subsection 4 on us with a rule that's made to prevent people metacomming, not "knowing the game exists" is very silly.
There is no rule against it currently. if you want to outlaw it, make that proposal. It's clearly not the intent of the current rules otherwise it would be handled already. RAW vs RAI

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:53 am**

If the problem is with poor RP then focus on the poor RP instead of the EORG prep that precedes it.
Banning EORG prep because it leads to them OOC ICing is like banning people for entering dorms because it leads to ERP.
I get that people being crap RPers for their EORG prep sucks, but the EORG prep isn't the problem, the fact that they try to use EORG as their justification is.
Outright banning EORG prep is going to stop people who can RP their EORG prep and create edge-cases where somebody did something that could be misconstrued as EORG prep.
If Chemman Mc Grenadelover created some high-yield grenades for fighting a cult or something, then instantly obliterates the shuttle in EORG, was that EORG prep?
Would his excuse be more valid than anyone else who justifies their WMD with "I made this for {insert this rounds antag here} and never used it/had one left over"?

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:57 am**

Why does this even need a discussion? If you EORG prep and someone opens your trit can or activates your grenade early, you're responsible for it. Sec officers on MRP will already arrest players dragging a trit can onto the shuttle, and the crew sometimes does as well.

Where would the line be drawn at what is/is not "sanctioned" EORG prep and what's over the line? Maybe you had an idea for something, but either didn't get the antag roll/it would be murderbone, but you wanted a "live test". Bugging an admin isn't always going to work and running your own server isn't always feasible. EORG is the perfect time to see the results without fear of retribution.

Not all admins will count "blatant" EORG prep the same way. What rules will be there to protect players from the more strict/bloodthirsty admins? Can you make a rule that is simple to understand on both sides of the aisle, and actually enforceable? Are admins going to start random searching players inventory during the round to sniff out EORG preppers?

I think this is hand wringing over a non-issue.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:05 am**

Here's my very intelligent solution; make it so that the moment the shuttle docks and the EOR screen pops up an uncapped devastation explosion occurs and instantly wipes out the shuttle and every person on it. There is now no reason to bring your funny EORG devices in the first place.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:45 pm**

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:57 am Why does this even need a discussion? If you EORG prep and someone opens your trit can or activates your grenade early, you're responsible for it. Sec officers on MRP will already arrest players dragging a trit can onto the shuttle, and the crew sometimes does as well.

Yeah, getting caught carrying a weapon of mass destruction into a crowded area smells of acting like an antag to me. If you have five maxcaps in your bag when an officer searches you before the final bell (or before the shuttle has even been called) then boo fucking hoo, if you actually use your blatantly-illegal weapons in "self defence" against the sec officer that has full valids to arrest you then that's just straight-up nonantag murder and you eat a ban. Maybe consider whether you want to carry something around that makes you valid for possessing it and you're not actually allowed to use.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:07 pm**

Sec should be arresting everyone who brings these items onto the shuttle. People should be beating the tar out of people bringing highly hazardous materials in a confined space.

End of round is a weird spot because it wouldnt be any fun if every item in your inventory post-round was magnifying glassed but people can carry tools and actually powergamey items throughout the round with little harassment.

Just wait until we have to argue about an item thats normally ok to have but in a particular case not ok to have because it was intended for EORG shenanigans (im thinking like xenobio hooplah).

Now the should-be obvious is that you are pretty much fully responsible if you set it off early or whatever. I dont know how responsible i'd consider someone if an antag utilized their EORG devices, probably very little. That is a you, the innocent bystander, and security's problem; not admins.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:15 am**

This feels less like a policy discussion and more like forcing admins to police end of round shenanigans.

If someone says "it's for EORG", ahelp for OOC in IC

If someone brings an obviously dangerous item, then it's on them if they get arrested and the item taken away.

If someone uses that obviously dangerous item for "self-defence" before the shuttle reaches cantcom, ahelp that person for Rule 1/poor escalation.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:30 am**

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:21 pm In OOC or IC? Ahelps?

There sounds like there is far more to that story.

Not everyone is a nice person.

Most people are difficult people.

Some people are snakes.

That means not everyone is going to just bow their heads politely. Some people are going to complain. Some are going to stab you in the back about it.

Why would that human nature be a reason to do this?

In IC at first, then dead chat/OOC after/next round. It's not particularly fun having someone bitching you out because you arrested them for walking onto the shuttle with a fuckin' TTV.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:51 am**

Being salty over being caught with a ttv that you want to use for blowing up the shuttle at round end is what people would call a "skill issue".

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm**

wait a minute

the main rules wrote:When the shuttle has reached Centcom, players are free to act as per lone antagonists, detailed in Rule 4.

the roleplay rules wrote:Murderboning IS

random killing without regard for or in direct violation of one's objectives

killing someone and being unable to explain why without going into deep hypotheticals such as "they could find the body if they happened to walk across the station to the opposite corner of the map", or “because I can (as antag)”

killing anyone without justification

if people are free to "act as lone antagonists" after the shuttle docks
and on manuel, lone antagonists are not allowed to kill randomly or set off weapons of mass destruction without regard for objectives
does that mean EORG is banned on manuel

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:15 pm**

Screemonster wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm wait a minute
the main rules wrote:When the shuttle has reached Centcom, players are free to act as per lone antagonists, detailed in Rule 4.

the roleplay rules wrote:Murderboning IS

random killing without regard for or in direct violation of one's objectives

killing someone and being unable to explain why without going into deep hypotheticals such as "they could find the body if they happened to walk across the station to the opposite corner of the map", or “because I can (as antag)”

killing anyone without justification
if people are free to "act as lone antagonists" after the shuttle docks
and on manuel, lone antagonists are not allowed to kill randomly or set off weapons of mass destruction without regard for objectives
does that mean EORG is banned on manuel

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:55 pm**

Yulice wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:05 am Here's my very intelligent solution; make it so that the moment the shuttle docks and the EOR screen pops up an uncapped devastation explosion occurs and instantly wipes out the shuttle and every person on it. There is now no reason to bring your funny EORG devices in the first place.

Yes. Legitimately just get rid of EORG. Freeze players when ship docks at centcom, allow 30 seconds for admins to halt reboot for administration reasons if necessary, then reboot.

In about half of rounds I play I see some galaxy brained dipshit triggering their ttvs/etc early and it fucks it up for everyone anyway, so just take the toys away. This will have the bonus that players will no longer play their rounds around dumb EORG prep.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:12 pm**

Screemonster wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:09 pm wait a minute
the main rules wrote:When the shuttle has reached Centcom, players are free to act as per lone antagonists, detailed in Rule 4.

the roleplay rules wrote:Murderboning IS

random killing without regard for or in direct violation of one's objectives

killing someone and being unable to explain why without going into deep hypotheticals such as "they could find the body if they happened to walk across the station to the opposite corner of the map", or “because I can (as antag)”

killing anyone without justification
if people are free to "act as lone antagonists" after the shuttle docks
and on manuel, lone antagonists are not allowed to kill randomly or set off weapons of mass destruction without regard for objectives
does that mean EORG is banned on manuel

How did nobody notice this before? A true revelation that there never was an EORG to begin with on manuel.

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:00 am**

any admin who give a single shit about what happens to peoples characters after round end is an idiot

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:47 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:00 am any admin who give a single shit about what happens to peoples characters after round end is an idiot

I don't care that much about EORG, what I care about is the rule 2 breach leading up to EORG.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:32 am**

It does not violate rule 2, because rule 2 was never enforced against it. The fact that you can read rule 2 as prohibiting it does not mean that it does in reality.
Do you have a reason to dislike the behavior itself? If so, what is it?

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:42 am**

Cheshify wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:47 pm
oranges wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:00 am any admin who give a single shit about what happens to peoples characters after round end is an idiot
I don't care that much about EORG, what I care about is the rule 2 breach leading up to EORG.

I didn't read the thread or the OP

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:31 am**

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:42 am
Cheshify wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:47 pm
oranges wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:00 am any admin who give a single shit about what happens to peoples characters after round end is an idiot
I don't care that much about EORG, what I care about is the rule 2 breach leading up to EORG.
I didn't read the thread or the OP

I don't think anyone's surprised that you chimed in on something without any idea what's going on.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:36 pm**

Could you elaborate on why you think Rule 2 applies to EORG?

After reading the rule and its precedents, it seems to only be concerned with metacomming, metaganging, using info from other rounds, and fortifying atmos roundstart. I can see on MRP it being an issue if a bunch of players are creating grief weapons the whole round with the specific intent to use them after the round ends, but this would only potentially be against Roleplay Rule 9, not Rule 2.

It seems it’d be difficult to enforce under Roleplay Rule 9 though, since characters are still allowed to create little projects and experiments which, incidentally, can be used for mass grief. The whole toxins department and maxcaps, chemistry and grenades, atmos and lethal gasses - these are all things players could, in theory, just be trying to create as a sort of mad scientist type thing (or even for research) and not necessarily so that they can use them in 2 hours at roundend.

The part about EORG messing up admins’ roundend gimmicks shouldn’t matter whatsoever. It would be very strange if players were disallowed from using their fun grief toy because admins have their own fun grief toys that they want to take priority.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:52 pm**

There's already precedent for this and it doesn't need any new rules:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=32573

Ban is applied per rulebreak and not per hypothetical future rulebreak. Players inherit full responsability for what they decide to bring aboard the shuttle.

If it doesn't result in a rulebreak, all is fine, noone's round was impacted pre-report so why would they get punished? If it does result in a rulebreak, spacing, gibbing people or what have you, they take the fall for it and get noted/banned, even if they didn't trigger it or it was out of their control. It works great this way and it doesn't need to change.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:19 pm**

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:36 pm Could you elaborate on why you think Rule 2 applies to EORG?

After reading the rule and its precedents, it seems to only be concerned with metacomming, metaganging, using info from other rounds, and fortifying atmos roundstart. I can see on MRP it being an issue if a bunch of players are creating grief weapons the whole round with the specific intent to use them after the round ends, but this would only potentially be against Roleplay Rule 9, not Rule 2.

at most I guess it'd be comparable to that meme of a borg getting a whole bunch of atmos grief gear all set up and ready and being all "oooooh nooooooo wouldn't it be a shaaaaaame if someone emagged me"
ie. they're not currently an antag, but they're gearing up to prep for the eventuality of becoming one.

The real issue is when they get busted for this blatantly antaggy shit and then escalate against the people that bust them because they think "THESE HALF DOZEN TTVS ARE MY EORG PROJECT SEC ARE ARRESTING ME FOR INVALID REASONS" in which case the best solution is a code one, specifically a button for ahelps that replies "skill issue" and marks the ticket resolved

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:10 pm**

We have that button and I want to use it more often but people rarely invite it

/tg/Station 13

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