Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

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Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by CPTANT » #665304

Currently appealing timed bans is almost always completely useless. Someone gets a 3 day ban. Goes into appeals to show it is complete nonsense. Admins write 5 essays worth of text and after 2 weeks headmins finally reply and they go "lol yeah this shouldn't have been a ban".

Suspend the bans while the appeal is running so players aren't punished for admin tardiness. Resume the ban if it was actually legit.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by The Wrench » #665359

This idea is stupid for a multitude of reasons, starting you are slowing down the ban appeal process significantly for no reason. Just wait the three days mate. Go outside, touch grass.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #665372

Just on the miniscule off-chance this thread is serious, this would be a terrible idea... Guy goes on some mass RDM killing spree, ban is super obviously justified, files nonsense appeal, does it again. Wow good job, now two shifts got ruined instead of one.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by TheLoLSwat » #665386

its almost like you appeal short bans in order to get the note reworded / removed and the ban length being shortened (from 3 day to 1 day, etc;) is just a secondary affect if its accepted before the ban is up.

Who cares man. So what you lose out on 1 day (lol) while waiting for the headmins to go "dumb ban" and remove your 3 day ban.

We all could use breaks from this game at points anyway
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Misdoubtful » #665387

I'm not really sure what this will accomplish?

Whats the intended goal here?

How will this interaction work with those acting in bad faith?

Is something like this worthwhile for a one day ban?

What if an appeal is super deep and takes a long time to be fully processed?

Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game?

Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game even for undeserved reasons?
Last edited by Misdoubtful on Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Didn't need those parts
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #665405

This is one of those ideas that sounds much better to an angry person in a discord call than it would be in practice.

While it's very frustrating that the headmin response to mid-length bans is excessively long (There's really no reason headmins should need several weeks or more for anything short of community-drama/blacklist-tier incidents), this proposal would essentially turn off the tgstation temporary ban system given the slow response times that are all that can currently be managed.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by CPTANT » #665412

I feel like people aren't reading the TIMED ban part. Nobody is saying this should be the case for shitters that are permanently banned or acting in bad faith. If you think someone will do horrible shit in the couple of days this takes then they would do those horrible things after the ban.

The point is that players shouldn't be punished for tardy admins.
While it's very frustrating that the headmin response to mid-length bans is excessively long (There's really no reason headmins should need several weeks or more for anything short of community-drama/blacklist-tier incidents), this proposal would essentially turn off the tgstation temporary ban system given the slow response times that are all that can currently be managed.
No, you just reapply the ban afterward, people still get punished, everyone happy.
Adam Klein wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:38 pm This idea is stupid for a multitude of reasons, starting you are slowing down the ban appeal process significantly for no reason. Just wait the three days mate. Go outside, touch grass.
No it doesn't it only incentives being faster with the appeal.
Last edited by CPTANT on Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by CPTANT » #665413

Misdoubtful wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:15 pm Whats the intended goal here?

1 How will this interaction work with those acting in bad faith?

2 Is something like this worthwhile for a one day ban?

3 What if an appeal is super deep and takes a long time to be fully processed?

4 What about perma bans?

5 What about ban evaders?

6 Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game?

7 Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game even for undeserved reasons?
1 People acting in bad faith don't get lousy timed bans in the first place.

2 It is especially worthy for one day bans because otherwise there is 0.0 chance of appealing wrongful bans.

3 Then the player shouldn't be punished for it and if it is declined in the end the ban is re-applied.

4 I specifically said timed bans because perma bans have enough time to be processed and the consequences of leaving people unbanned are worse.

5 Ban evaders have perma bans.

6 If it is voluntary, no. If it is because of an unjust ban yes.

7 Yes, unjust punishment is bad and gives a sour taste beyond the actual ban length.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Misdoubtful » #665415

I edited out the perm evade parts when I realized but was a bit too late.

I would love to have someone pull together the weekly, monthly, yearly bans as a frame of reference regarding the appeal to ban ratio.

It's something with a substantial difference that I can't quite put the numbers to at the moment.

Appealed bans happen, not very often, but they happen.

What would be the proposed process for something like this?

Say someone gets a week ban, someone appeals halfway through. What happens?

Is this something that could be solved with even more fluidity in allowing admins to handle bans for those that are away?

Would additional sections/info in ban appeals mitigate the time factor here?

The root issue here doesn't seem to be people getting banned, but the time it takes to process appeals. Usually these are the appeals that aren't very cut and dry, or have people buckling down on either side and refusing to budge.

Can you say with absolute certainty that people that have acted in bad faith have not received lousy timed bans? Can you prove that?

What about those that have not learned from a mistake?

What if they repeat that mistake while their ban is 'pending' or receive another ban for something else during that time period? What happens?
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by ekaterina » #665432

I agree with this proposal. This is a great idea, emulating protections that defendants in real life also have.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Timberpoes » #665458

If you want to talk about emulating protections defendants in real life have, don't come here.

We don't have separation of powers. Our judiciary, executive and legislature are all the same body: The admin team.

We just about managed habeas corpus, and even appeals stemming from that concept are overseen by the same party that initially placed the note or ban.

We don't have a concept of bail while hearing your appeal, either.

Also, we're just a video game. Shit's complicated enough already. Let's keep it simple.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Mice World » #665464

I don't see this as a problem. If an admin constantly bans players for awful reasons, they'll be deadmined. If an admin bans someone in obvious bad faith, they'll be deadmined. Well, ideally they should anyway.

Full ban appeals (Ban + Note removed) are fairly rare and I don't agree with changing how bans work just to account for them.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by LoveMirror » #665479

ekaterina wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:36 pm I agree with this proposal. This is a great idea, emulating protections that defendants in real life also have.
a ban on /tg/ is not comparable to a real life stint in jail bro.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by TheFinalPotato » #665485

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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Turbonerd » #665491

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by conrad » #665496

ekaterina wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:36 pm I agree with this proposal. This is a great idea, emulating protections that defendants in real life also have.
Emulate real life prosecution when administrating silly spessmen gas sim.

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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Hoxha » #665503

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by bastardblaster » #665504

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #665608

At least make them pay bail.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by sinfulbliss » #665626

This doesn't seem like a good idea. If temp bans are suspended upon appeal, admins won't be able to get rid of players without permabanning them, so they'll just perma instead. Admins already use permas way too often when 1 week, 2 week, 1 month etc. bans would've been just as good, this will make it worse.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Riggle » #665697

Don't you think if this gets implemented the admin team will get more bad faith ban appeals? And before you say we should punish players for those that's not a good idea.

Taking a break for a day or two isn't a bad thing, it helps with burnout. It might not be fair, but please keep in mind that this is a game. You won't die from shock of not playing it for a bit.

Of you're getting banned in the first place you might want to consider not breaking the rules.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by CPTANT » #665711

Riggle wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:39 pm Don't you think if this gets implemented the admin team will get more bad faith ban appeals? And before you say we should punish players for those that's not a good idea.

Taking a break for a day or two isn't a bad thing, it helps with burnout. It might not be fair, but please keep in mind that this is a game. You won't die from shock of not playing it for a bit.

Of you're getting banned in the first place you might want to consider not breaking the rules.
This is for the people that don't break the rules and still get banned. Not for those that do.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Misdoubtful » #665720

Honestly this proposal still needs plenty of fleshing out otherwise you can expect more questions to be coming in that need answering.

Especially if that proposal hinges on potentially making more work for everyone involved.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Cobby » #665731

the actual topic seems like a more interesting one, specifically should there be any reimbursement to a person who was "wrongfully" banned / punishment for a "wrongful" ban.

If this is the topic we're sticking with, no way. Id rather have "you must answer appeals within X time or its free to be handled by someone else" be tighter as opposed to anyone who contests a ban gets free pass to cause potentially more trouble.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by TheLoLSwat » #665847

wait guys on second thought... lets implement this right now...... for the health of the game...
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Timberpoes » #665850

TheLoLSwat wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:25 am wait guys on second thought... lets implement this right now...... for the health of the game...
Wait a second...
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by sinfulbliss » #665919

Cobby wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:34 pm "you must answer appeals within X time or its free to be handled by someone else" be tighter as opposed to anyone who contests a ban gets free pass to cause potentially more trouble.
oooOoOoo now THIS is a cool idea. Like those pizza delivery companies that promise a free pizza if they’re over 30 minutes late.

so let’s say you request headmin review or something for a few days ban and they end up overruling it, even removing the note - but you were banned for a few days maybe even a week unjustly technically. maybe they should give you like …… an antag token or something? if you had to serve time banned after it was overruled.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Jackraxxus » #665922

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:17 am
Cobby wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:34 pm "you must answer appeals within X time or its free to be handled by someone else" be tighter as opposed to anyone who contests a ban gets free pass to cause potentially more trouble.
oooOoOoo now THIS is a cool idea. Like those pizza delivery companies that promise a free pizza if they’re over 30 minutes late.

so let’s say you request headmin review or something for a few days ban and they end up overruling it, even removing the note - but you were banned for a few days maybe even a week unjustly technically. maybe they should give you like …… an antag token or something? if you had to serve time banned after it was overruled.
I want this. Not because I think it's a good idea or anything, but because I want to see people intentionally get themselves wrongly banned, then appeal it and get it overturned late (By somehow making it a super-edge case maybe that requires a lot of discussion maybe?) purely for the antag token. I think it would be funny.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Qbmax32 » #665985

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by CPTANT » #666046

I think its far less stupid than ignoring obvious bullshit bans for weeks and keeping people banned while ignoring the appeals.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by mstachife » #666085

this assumes reviewing ban appeals is a full time job
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Pandarsenic » #666087

Suspend "No Peanut" rules on ban appeals after 4 days with no admin response
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by wesoda25 » #666097

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:06 am Suspend "No Peanut" rules on ban appeals after 4 days with no admin response
Groundbreaking. Let’s make it 3 days though. Maybe even 2.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Pandarsenic » #666099

I would personally go for 2 days but I think that might be too radical of a proposal to get through

SHIT I should've started there then presented 4 days as the compromise option, I'm bad at this
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by oranges » #666110

Counter proposal, we add this but if your appeal is rejected you are put in a real jail to ensure balance.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Vekter » #666116

No, what? This is stupid. It's a valid point to want headmins to handle ban appeals faster, but the vast majority of bans are upheld by them and a ban isn't automatically unjust simply because you think it is.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by wesoda25 » #666119

Pandarsenic wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:09 am I would personally go for 2 days but I think that might be too radical of a proposal to get through

SHIT I should've started there then presented 4 days as the compromise option, I'm bad at this
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by BeeSting12 » #666120

I get the sentiment behind this, but this is a much greater pain in the ass administratively than it's worth. I'm not particularly worried about players coming back during their open appeal to cause trouble since generally if it's a timed ban, we don't expect them to come back and cause trouble, we just want to give them a timeout to think on their actions. Just seems like a massive pain in the ass to unban them once the appeal is up, have several days worth of deliberation, and then reban them (possibly minus time served) after it's been decided against them.

I'd prefer the headmins be quicker in getting around to controversial ban appeals, but based on Rave's post in her campaign thread, sounds like they have busy and conflicting schedules making it difficult to discuss. I'm also assuming admins are already reprimanded for consistently bad bans, particularly ones where the investigation is lacking or there is a poor understanding of policy. The idea of compensation for unjustly serving a ban is also interesting, but once again it would be a pain to implement administratively. It would be nice if there was a code way to implement antag tokens (wyci, i know).

I would like to add that reviewing ban appeals is much more difficult than a lot of you are assuming. Investigating is much easier during the round when you can view logs per player and everyone is there for live questioning. Headmins investigating a ban appeal have to pull logs, read through them, wait long amounts of time for responses (if needed), and then discuss the applicable rules and policy if it's not clear cut, which it rarely is. It's easy to post your two cents on a peanut thread and go about your day when the consequences of your post are nil.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Riggle » #666130

CPTANT wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:21 pm -snip-
So only players who got banned unfairly would appeal? Sounds very optimistic. Unless you're proposing yet another committee that decides if someone got banned for breaking a rule or not. Head admins seem more than enough for me. Or are you proposing all rule 1 bans to be suspended? A lot of those are permabans anyway.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Vekter » #666141

Okay, I have thought for a while and I have come back with an actual criticism other than just "this is a stupid idea". It is, but I feel like I should at least tell you why.

Literally anyone who is banned for more than a day will appeal every ban they can because it doesn't matter if they're obviously in the wrong, all they would have to do would be to appeal, be rejected, then request a headmin appeal and they'd be unbanned until the headmins touch it.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by CPTANT » #666221

Vekter wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:40 am Okay, I have thought for a while and I have come back with an actual criticism other than just "this is a stupid idea". It is, but I feel like I should at least tell you why.

Literally anyone who is banned for more than a day will appeal every ban they can because it doesn't matter if they're obviously in the wrong, all they would have to do would be to appeal, be rejected, then request a headmin appeal and they'd be unbanned until the headmins touch it.
So? They will still be banned for the same amount of time.
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by vect0r » #666249

It will be so much more work for a admin: if it takes this long for this amount of ban appeals, think about how long it would take if EVERY SINGLE BAN was appealed
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Vekter » #666276

CPTANT wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:43 pm
Vekter wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:40 am Okay, I have thought for a while and I have come back with an actual criticism other than just "this is a stupid idea". It is, but I feel like I should at least tell you why.

Literally anyone who is banned for more than a day will appeal every ban they can because it doesn't matter if they're obviously in the wrong, all they would have to do would be to appeal, be rejected, then request a headmin appeal and they'd be unbanned until the headmins touch it.
So? They will still be banned for the same amount of time.
I don't think you understand how many bans we hand out on a weekly basis.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by Sightld2 » #666336

Sounds like an issue of "Do you think the admins are right or wrong more often than not."
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Re: Suspend timed bans until the appeal is handled

Post by spookuni » #668030

I intentionally left this thread until the new elects could weigh in on it, as while it's silly it is more or less direct criticism of our term.

Neither we nor they have any interest in implementing this system - it rewards bad faith play and appeal behaviour at the cost of the rounds of everyone who isn't copping bans, and frankly wouldn't be particularly effective if fast but good ban responses are the highest priority.

Spook: To be frank, if headmins have to immediately support bans for those bans to stick, you're going to see most bans get immediate headmin approval, regardless of deeper-merit. Properly going over a ban and making sure that procedure was followed and that everything was done fairly often takes time, especially when there are multiple bans up at once - time that you can't rush.
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