/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:21 pm**

Currently appealing timed bans is almost always completely useless. Someone gets a 3 day ban. Goes into appeals to show it is complete nonsense. Admins write 5 essays worth of text and after 2 weeks headmins finally reply and they go "lol yeah this shouldn't have been a ban".

Suspend the bans while the appeal is running so players aren't punished for admin tardiness. Resume the ban if it was actually legit.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:38 pm**

This idea is stupid for a multitude of reasons, starting you are slowing down the ban appeal process significantly for no reason. Just wait the three days mate. Go outside, touch grass.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:58 pm**

Just on the miniscule off-chance this thread is serious, this would be a terrible idea... Guy goes on some mass RDM killing spree, ban is super obviously justified, files nonsense appeal, does it again. Wow good job, now two shifts got ruined instead of one.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:12 pm**

its almost like you appeal short bans in order to get the note reworded / removed and the ban length being shortened (from 3 day to 1 day, etc;) is just a secondary affect if its accepted before the ban is up.

Who cares man. So what you lose out on 1 day (lol) while waiting for the headmins to go "dumb ban" and remove your 3 day ban.

We all could use breaks from this game at points anyway

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:15 pm**

I'm not really sure what this will accomplish?

Whats the intended goal here?

How will this interaction work with those acting in bad faith?

Is something like this worthwhile for a one day ban?

What if an appeal is super deep and takes a long time to be fully processed?

Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game?

Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game even for undeserved reasons?

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:15 pm**

This is one of those ideas that sounds much better to an angry person in a discord call than it would be in practice.

While it's very frustrating that the headmin response to mid-length bans is excessively long (There's really no reason headmins should need several weeks or more for anything short of community-drama/blacklist-tier incidents), this proposal would essentially turn off the tgstation temporary ban system given the slow response times that are all that can currently be managed.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:45 pm**

I feel like people aren't reading the TIMED ban part. Nobody is saying this should be the case for shitters that are permanently banned or acting in bad faith. If you think someone will do horrible shit in the couple of days this takes then they would do those horrible things after the ban.

The point is that players shouldn't be punished for tardy admins.

While it's very frustrating that the headmin response to mid-length bans is excessively long (There's really no reason headmins should need several weeks or more for anything short of community-drama/blacklist-tier incidents), this proposal would essentially turn off the tgstation temporary ban system given the slow response times that are all that can currently be managed.

No, you just reapply the ban afterward, people still get punished, everyone happy.

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:38 pm This idea is stupid for a multitude of reasons, starting you are slowing down the ban appeal process significantly for no reason. Just wait the three days mate. Go outside, touch grass.

No it doesn't it only incentives being faster with the appeal.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:49 pm**

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:15 pm Whats the intended goal here?

1 How will this interaction work with those acting in bad faith?

2 Is something like this worthwhile for a one day ban?

3 What if an appeal is super deep and takes a long time to be fully processed?

4 What about perma bans?

5 What about ban evaders?

6 Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game?

7 Is it a bad thing to take a break from the game even for undeserved reasons?

1 People acting in bad faith don't get lousy timed bans in the first place.

2 It is especially worthy for one day bans because otherwise there is 0.0 chance of appealing wrongful bans.

3 Then the player shouldn't be punished for it and if it is declined in the end the ban is re-applied.

4 I specifically said timed bans because perma bans have enough time to be processed and the consequences of leaving people unbanned are worse.

5 Ban evaders have perma bans.

6 If it is voluntary, no. If it is because of an unjust ban yes.

7 Yes, unjust punishment is bad and gives a sour taste beyond the actual ban length.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:01 pm**

I edited out the perm evade parts when I realized but was a bit too late.

I would love to have someone pull together the weekly, monthly, yearly bans as a frame of reference regarding the appeal to ban ratio.

It's something with a substantial difference that I can't quite put the numbers to at the moment.

Appealed bans happen, not very often, but they happen.

What would be the proposed process for something like this?

Say someone gets a week ban, someone appeals halfway through. What happens?

Is this something that could be solved with even more fluidity in allowing admins to handle bans for those that are away?

Would additional sections/info in ban appeals mitigate the time factor here?

The root issue here doesn't seem to be people getting banned, but the time it takes to process appeals. Usually these are the appeals that aren't very cut and dry, or have people buckling down on either side and refusing to budge.

Can you say with absolute certainty that people that have acted in bad faith have not received lousy timed bans? Can you prove that?

What about those that have not learned from a mistake?

What if they repeat that mistake while their ban is 'pending' or receive another ban for something else during that time period? What happens?

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:36 pm**

I agree with this proposal. This is a great idea, emulating protections that defendants in real life also have.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:28 pm**

If you want to talk about emulating protections defendants in real life have, don't come here.

We don't have separation of powers. Our judiciary, executive and legislature are all the same body: The admin team.

We just about managed habeas corpus, and even appeals stemming from that concept are overseen by the same party that initially placed the note or ban.

We don't have a concept of bail while hearing your appeal, either.

Also, we're just a video game. Shit's complicated enough already. Let's keep it simple.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:44 pm**

I don't see this as a problem. If an admin constantly bans players for awful reasons, they'll be deadmined. If an admin bans someone in obvious bad faith, they'll be deadmined. Well, ideally they should anyway.

Full ban appeals (Ban + Note removed) are fairly rare and I don't agree with changing how bans work just to account for them.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:16 pm**

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:36 pm I agree with this proposal. This is a great idea, emulating protections that defendants in real life also have.

a ban on /tg/ is not comparable to a real life stint in jail bro.
go outside and inhale some fresh air, might help those neurons

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm**

stupid

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:51 pm**

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:59 pm**

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:36 pm I agree with this proposal. This is a great idea, emulating protections that defendants in real life also have.

Emulate real life prosecution when administrating silly spessmen gas sim.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:17 pm**

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:33 pm**

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:43 am**

At least make them pay bail.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:37 am**

This doesn't seem like a good idea. If temp bans are suspended upon appeal, admins won't be able to get rid of players without permabanning them, so they'll just perma instead. Admins already use permas way too often when 1 week, 2 week, 1 month etc. bans would've been just as good, this will make it worse.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:39 pm**

Don't you think if this gets implemented the admin team will get more bad faith ban appeals? And before you say we should punish players for those that's not a good idea.

Taking a break for a day or two isn't a bad thing, it helps with burnout. It might not be fair, but please keep in mind that this is a game. You won't die from shock of not playing it for a bit.

Of you're getting banned in the first place you might want to consider not breaking the rules.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:21 pm**

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:39 pm Don't you think if this gets implemented the admin team will get more bad faith ban appeals? And before you say we should punish players for those that's not a good idea.

Taking a break for a day or two isn't a bad thing, it helps with burnout. It might not be fair, but please keep in mind that this is a game. You won't die from shock of not playing it for a bit.

Of you're getting banned in the first place you might want to consider not breaking the rules.

This is for the people that don't break the rules and still get banned. Not for those that do.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:53 pm**

Honestly this proposal still needs plenty of fleshing out otherwise you can expect more questions to be coming in that need answering.

Especially if that proposal hinges on potentially making more work for everyone involved.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:34 pm**

the actual topic seems like a more interesting one, specifically should there be any reimbursement to a person who was "wrongfully" banned / punishment for a "wrongful" ban.

If this is the topic we're sticking with, no way. Id rather have "you must answer appeals within X time or its free to be handled by someone else" be tighter as opposed to anyone who contests a ban gets free pass to cause potentially more trouble.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:25 am**

wait guys on second thought... lets implement this right now...... for the health of the game...

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:41 am**

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:25 am wait guys on second thought... lets implement this right now...... for the health of the game...

Wait a second...

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:17 am**

Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:34 pm "you must answer appeals within X time or its free to be handled by someone else" be tighter as opposed to anyone who contests a ban gets free pass to cause potentially more trouble.

oooOoOoo now THIS is a cool idea. Like those pizza delivery companies that promise a free pizza if they’re over 30 minutes late.

so let’s say you request headmin review or something for a few days ban and they end up overruling it, even removing the note - but you were banned for a few days maybe even a week unjustly technically. maybe they should give you like …… an antag token or something? if you had to serve time banned after it was overruled.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:27 am**

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:17 am
Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:34 pm "you must answer appeals within X time or its free to be handled by someone else" be tighter as opposed to anyone who contests a ban gets free pass to cause potentially more trouble.
oooOoOoo now THIS is a cool idea. Like those pizza delivery companies that promise a free pizza if they’re over 30 minutes late.

so let’s say you request headmin review or something for a few days ban and they end up overruling it, even removing the note - but you were banned for a few days maybe even a week unjustly technically. maybe they should give you like …… an antag token or something? if you had to serve time banned after it was overruled.

I want this. Not because I think it's a good idea or anything, but because I want to see people intentionally get themselves wrongly banned, then appeal it and get it overturned late (By somehow making it a super-edge case maybe that requires a lot of discussion maybe?) purely for the antag token. I think it would be funny.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 5:56 pm**

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:32 pm stupid

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:31 pm**

I think its far less stupid than ignoring obvious bullshit bans for weeks and keeping people banned while ignoring the appeals.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:48 am**

this assumes reviewing ban appeals is a full time job

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:06 am**

Suspend "No Peanut" rules on ban appeals after 4 days with no admin response

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:05 am**

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:06 am Suspend "No Peanut" rules on ban appeals after 4 days with no admin response

Groundbreaking. Let’s make it 3 days though. Maybe even 2.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:09 am**

I would personally go for 2 days but I think that might be too radical of a proposal to get through

SHIT I should've started there then presented 4 days as the compromise option, I'm bad at this

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:56 am**

Counter proposal, we add this but if your appeal is rejected you are put in a real jail to ensure balance.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:17 am**

No, what? This is stupid. It's a valid point to want headmins to handle ban appeals faster, but the vast majority of bans are upheld by them and a ban isn't automatically unjust simply because you think it is.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:39 am**

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:09 am I would personally go for 2 days but I think that might be too radical of a proposal to get through

SHIT I should've started there then presented 4 days as the compromise option, I'm bad at this

6 hours. final offer

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:46 am**

I get the sentiment behind this, but this is a much greater pain in the ass administratively than it's worth. I'm not particularly worried about players coming back during their open appeal to cause trouble since generally if it's a timed ban, we don't expect them to come back and cause trouble, we just want to give them a timeout to think on their actions. Just seems like a massive pain in the ass to unban them once the appeal is up, have several days worth of deliberation, and then reban them (possibly minus time served) after it's been decided against them.

I'd prefer the headmins be quicker in getting around to controversial ban appeals, but based on Rave's post in her campaign thread, sounds like they have busy and conflicting schedules making it difficult to discuss. I'm also assuming admins are already reprimanded for consistently bad bans, particularly ones where the investigation is lacking or there is a poor understanding of policy. The idea of compensation for unjustly serving a ban is also interesting, but once again it would be a pain to implement administratively. It would be nice if there was a code way to implement antag tokens (wyci, i know).

I would like to add that reviewing ban appeals is much more difficult than a lot of you are assuming. Investigating is much easier during the round when you can view logs per player and everyone is there for live questioning. Headmins investigating a ban appeal have to pull logs, read through them, wait long amounts of time for responses (if needed), and then discuss the applicable rules and policy if it's not clear cut, which it rarely is. It's easy to post your two cents on a peanut thread and go about your day when the consequences of your post are nil.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:43 am**

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:21 pm -snip-

So only players who got banned unfairly would appeal? Sounds very optimistic. Unless you're proposing yet another committee that decides if someone got banned for breaking a rule or not. Head admins seem more than enough for me. Or are you proposing all rule 1 bans to be suspended? A lot of those are permabans anyway.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:40 am**

Okay, I have thought for a while and I have come back with an actual criticism other than just "this is a stupid idea". It is, but I feel like I should at least tell you why.

Literally anyone who is banned for more than a day will appeal every ban they can because it doesn't matter if they're obviously in the wrong, all they would have to do would be to appeal, be rejected, then request a headmin appeal and they'd be unbanned until the headmins touch it.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:43 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:40 am Okay, I have thought for a while and I have come back with an actual criticism other than just "this is a stupid idea". It is, but I feel like I should at least tell you why.

Literally anyone who is banned for more than a day will appeal every ban they can because it doesn't matter if they're obviously in the wrong, all they would have to do would be to appeal, be rejected, then request a headmin appeal and they'd be unbanned until the headmins touch it.

So? They will still be banned for the same amount of time.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:02 pm**

It will be so much more work for a admin: if it takes this long for this amount of ban appeals, think about how long it would take if EVERY SINGLE BAN was appealed

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:58 pm**

CPTANT wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:43 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:40 am Okay, I have thought for a while and I have come back with an actual criticism other than just "this is a stupid idea". It is, but I feel like I should at least tell you why.

Literally anyone who is banned for more than a day will appeal every ban they can because it doesn't matter if they're obviously in the wrong, all they would have to do would be to appeal, be rejected, then request a headmin appeal and they'd be unbanned until the headmins touch it.
So? They will still be banned for the same amount of time.

I don't think you understand how many bans we hand out on a weekly basis.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:49 pm**

Sounds like an issue of "Do you think the admins are right or wrong more often than not."

Posted: **Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:39 am**

I intentionally left this thread until the new elects could weigh in on it, as while it's silly it is more or less direct criticism of our term.

Neither we nor they have any interest in implementing this system - it rewards bad faith play and appeal behaviour at the cost of the rounds of everyone who isn't copping bans, and frankly wouldn't be particularly effective if fast but good ban responses are the highest priority.

Spook: To be frank, if headmins have to immediately support bans for those bans to stick, you're going to see most bans get immediate headmin approval, regardless of deeper-merit. Properly going over a ban and making sure that procedure was followed and that everything was done fairly often takes time, especially when there are multiple bans up at once - time that you can't rush.
Rave: Do not implement
San: Do not implement
Elects: 3/3 Do not implement

/tg/Station 13

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