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Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:51 pm
by Unoki
Hello everyone, Yeah this another policy discussion about silicons joy...
So this policy Thread is about roboticist making one or more ais for no reason other than lolz !
Why is it bad:
-It ruins the gameplay of the main AI(Robbing the main AI of their gameplay of opening doors feels like a dick move to the ai).
-Ghost can metagame (knowing that the ai is malf) by becoming Positronic Brain and asking to be AI.
How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:13 pm
by Tearling
Unoki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:51 pm
Hello everyone, Yeah this another policy discussion about silicons joy...
So this policy Thread is about roboticist making one or more ais for no reason other than lolz !
Why is it bad:
-It ruins the gameplay of the main AI(Robbing the main AI of their gameplay of opening doors feels like a dick move to the ai).
-Ghost can metagame (knowing that the ai is malf) by becoming Positronic Brain and asking to be AI.
How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
Why is it good:
-It creates more silicon roleplay
-It creates more AI shenanigans that create unique and memorable rounds
Is it common for ghosts to metagame that the AI is malf and become AIs themselves? I figured that wasn't that common, given that I don't usually see roboticists making spare AIs.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:32 pm
by Imitates-The-Lizards
Finally, someone said it. Yes, for the love of god, ban roboticists from making a second AI for no reason, there's barely enough for one AI to do, let alone two, it's a huge "stepping on toes" issue, like imagine if a HoP promoted an assistant to second virologist. What the fuck does the first one do, then?
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:45 pm
by Ryusenshu
i had seen multiple times that people go secondary ai just to see if they can snitch on main ai, mostly on modsuit
I normally like teaming with ais, but i just dont wanna see the "are you malf?" in binary anymore
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:47 pm
by Unoki
Tearling wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:13 pm
Why is it good:
-It creates more silicon roleplay
-It creates more AI shenanigans that create unique and memorable rounds
Is it common for ghosts to metagame that the AI is malf and become AIs themselves? I figured that wasn't that common, given that I don't usually see roboticists making spare AIs.
-The silicon roleplay result always in "alright move you to sat."
-When it happens every 3-4 rounds it doesn't become so memorable.
I don't mind another AIs it's just ask for main ai permision first, And no it isn't common but this behavior shouldn't be allowed.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:55 pm
by Kubisopplay
One of easiest metagaming strats, fucks malfs over, annoys normal AIs, usually causes law conflict if the robo is feeling very funny. Nothing of importance will be lost with axing this behavior.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:22 am
by Helios
Roboticists should require permission to make cyborgs or mechs too.
Let's tie both arms behind their back instead of just one.
That's easier than Genetics approach where you just hammer down everything worth having and leaving behind transcendent olfaction and cryokinesis
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:41 pm
by Unoki
Helios wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:22 am
Roboticists should require permission to make cyborgs or mechs too.
Let's tie both arms behind their back instead of just one.
That's easier than Genetics approach where you just hammer down everything worth having and leaving behind transcendent olfaction and cryokinesis
This seems a bit excessive, Borgs and mechs don't have that much negative impact to AI gameplay.
Unless the roboticist as a non antag proceed to mass produce unsync borg for no reason, I guess.
Mechs aren't that hard to deal with them tbh.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:33 pm
by zxaber
I don't think I've ever had a purely negative result from a secondary AI being created as the starting/"Main" AI. Worst case, eventually one AI has to try and kill the other for law reasons, but that's not really any different than any other antag-adjacent player interaction.
If Malf AIs are routinely being screwed by new AIs, it sounds more like a code solution could be in place. It's an odd issue in my experience, though; usually when there's a Malf, the ghosts are scrambling to become a synced borg.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:56 am
by carshalash
zxaber wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:33 pm
I don't think I've ever had a purely negative result from a secondary AI being created as the starting/"Main" AI. Worst case, eventually one AI has to try and kill the other for law reasons, but that's not really any different than any other antag-adjacent player interaction.
If Malf AIs are routinely being screwed by new AIs, it sounds more like a code solution could be in place. It's an odd issue in my experience, though; usually when there's a Malf, the ghosts are scrambling to become a synced borg.
You know how to synch borgs/shells to other AI's. Most roboticists are single-cell organisms and have no idea how to do so. Getting screwed out of borgs or shells for the rest of the shift is a pretty garbage experience.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:57 pm
by warbluke
One round I made about twelve AIs, each with an additional freeform law that was just a prequel quote, "The council will decide your fate" or "I love democracy" or something like that. There was no problem, since I was able to get each AI its own shell so they could move themselves where they pleased.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 pm
by Misdoubtful
Unoki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:51 pm
Why is it bad:
-It ruins the gameplay of the main AI(Robbing the main AI of their gameplay of opening doors feels like a dick move to the ai).
-Ghost can metagame (knowing that the ai is malf) by becoming Positronic Brain and asking to be AI.
Does it ruin the gameplay of the main AI everytime? Is this something related to laws?
We don't really operate on the concept that people will metagame as a means to keep things from existing. Otherwise, why would we have any ghost roles?
Unoki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:51 pm
How can this be fixed.
Making another AI without any ic justification like (Ai is malf, Ai is dead, or at least ask the main AI first if they wish to have another silicon friend) will get you noted.
Asking to be made an AI as a Positronic Brain with the ghost knowledge that the main ai is malf will get you noted.
What does this do for player agency?
How can one know for certain that someone is abusing ghost knowledge?
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:20 pm
by Striders13
if the robo is making a new AI without asking the station AI first, station AI should just assume the secondary one to be harmful and order the borg to dispose of it.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:25 pm
by Imitates-The-Lizards
Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 pmDoes it ruin the gameplay of the main AI everytime? Is this something related to laws?
Yes, it does. No, it is not (typically) related to laws.
Let's consider what an AI's (non-social) actions will be in a typical shift:
85% Managing doors (whether opening them, or bolting them during fights to prevent human harm)
5% managing security records
5% sending commands to simplebots
4% miscellaneous remote engineering tasks (setting air alarms in the event of gas leaks, occasionally doing the sm because there are no engineers)
1% calling the shuttle
80%+ (by my own subjective observations) of AI players don't know how to command simplebots or set up the sm. So that boils down their possible actions to opening doors and managing records.
So their gameplay is already extremely limited outside of the stalking and social aspects, which, y'know, are GOOD, but people are signing up for AI, not for a Nanotransen version of Comms agent.
And then some jackass roboticist builds a second AI, who now will compete with you over your very limited action pool - And that's the BEST case scenario, is that they steal your limited action pool. The worst case scenario is they fight you by fucking with your APC, try to kill you, out you as malf, sabotage the station because they have different laws, etc.
Robotics building a second AI is ALWAYS an extremely dickish move to the starter AI.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:54 pm
by Unoki
Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:24 pm
How can one know for certain that someone is abusing ghost knowledge?
Nothing can be certain but when a positronic brain ask to be AI the moment they spawn, you can safely assume they metagames in my opinion.
(EDIT)And Imitates-The-Lizards explain correctly why it's so shitty for the main AI.
Striders13 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:20 pm
if the robo is making a new AI without asking the station AI first, station AI should just assume the secondary one to be harmful and order the borg to dispose of it.
Problem is rule 1 Don't be a dick and nobody ordered you to kill the other AIs (law 2), nothing says you are at risk (law 3)
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:08 pm
by vect0r
I would be fine with others being able to make a 2nd AI, if I could kill it.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:40 am
by Striders13
Unoki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:54 pm
Problem is rule 1 Don't be a dick and nobody ordered you to kill the other AIs (law 2), nothing says you are at risk (law 3)
Both you and humans are at risk from any newly constructed AI. You don't know what laws they might have, and they can instantly depower your APC at any given moment. If robo didn't even bother asking you, you can assume that they had a reason not to ask you.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:26 am
by wesoda25
Making more AI’s is a cool idea in theory that can often be obnoxious in practice. I’d say a net ban is lame and reactionary, admins should use their discretion to see that it’s not done super frequently.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:01 pm
by TheFinalPotato
wesoda25 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:26 am
Making more AI’s is a cool idea in theory that can often be obnoxious in practice. I’d say a net ban is lame and reactionary, admins should use their discretion to see that it’s not done super frequently.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:09 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
I quite like the idea of "If the roboticist doesnt communicate with you before making a new AI, the station AI can kill it the moment he looks away under law 3" tbh.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:41 pm
by oranges
my face when AI players consider their gameplay actually opening doors.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 am
by Imitates-The-Lizards
oranges wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:41 pm
my face when AI players consider their gameplay actually opening doors.
Their main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:48 am
by vect0r
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 am
oranges wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:41 pm
my face when AI players consider their gameplay actually opening doors.
Their main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
I hated playing engi, and I learned HOW to do set up of SM solo APCs etc via AI.
Setting up the SM solo as AI is different from setting up SM as engi, as you have to pump n2 from distro into the SM.
So... please do not add an engi requirement!
Edit: managing APCs and AIR alarms is not something that engis do that often, and engis cannot even USE air alarms, as they lack access.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:39 pm
by CPTANT
vect0r wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:48 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 am
oranges wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:41 pm
my face when AI players consider their gameplay actually opening doors.
Their main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
I hated playing engi, and I learned HOW to do set up of SM solo APCs etc via AI.
Setting up the SM solo as AI is different from setting up SM as engi, as you have to pump n2 from distro into the SM.
So... please do not add an engi requirement!
Edit: managing APCs and AIR alarms is not something that engis do that often, and engis cannot even USE air alarms, as they lack access.
Yes this is something the AI can do (and does) but its not remotely enough content to fill the actual round. It's basically just a social role unless laws change.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:22 pm
by vect0r
CPTANT wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:39 pm
vect0r wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:48 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:43 am
oranges wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:41 pm
my face when AI players consider their gameplay actually opening doors.
Their main gameplay is social, being the overwatching mind coordinating the crew.
That doesn't mean people don't want to preserve their actual action pool.
If you ask me, the best thing that could happen to AI is adding a 20h station engineer requirement to it in addition to the 20h cyborg requirement, so that way AIs learn how to manage APCs, Air alarms, and start the SM solo.
I hated playing engi, and I learned HOW to do set up of SM solo APCs etc via AI.
Setting up the SM solo as AI is different from setting up SM as engi, as you have to pump n2 from distro into the SM.
So... please do not add an engi requirement!
Edit: managing APCs and AIR alarms is not something that engis do that often, and engis cannot even USE air alarms, as they lack access.
Yes this is something the AI can do (and does) but its not remotely enough content to fill the actual round. It's basically just a social role unless laws change.
I am saying that we shouldn't add 20 hours of station engineers, not that it's not a social role.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:57 pm
by Ryusenshu
After being in another ai spam round, i would like if you could kill the newly created ais (created behind your back) for sure
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:02 am
by Sightld2
I just enjoyed a round on tgstation manuel. I initially cautioned the RD against making more Ai against the captains demands. We reached a conclusion where the Captain pressured me into permitting the construction of 2 additional Ai. They then proceeded to interfere with security and kill eachother. I believe they would have tried to kill me had I not cut the control wire in my satellite. The roboticists made shells for them while I had none. They then proceeded to make three more Ai, who continued this type of shenanigans. Ultimately? None of this was fun. You cannot effectively do anything while other Ai are contesting you. You compete for job content, cyborgs and shells, heck you even compete for malf. I don't think this is something that should never happen, but it'd be nice if I, the player who rolled Ai had a say in the matter, that wasn't what I signed up for and it's not whats generally fun about playing Ai. I have enjoyed many multi-Ai rounds in the past, it's just something that needs consenting to.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:47 am
by Drag
It's generally considered a bitch move to make more ais when the original station ai protests, which is why I kill the other ais and any non humans making more ais.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:36 pm
by nianjiilical
i think it would be funny if malf ais had a malf ability to cause other ais to malfunction with the same objectives and a law -1 that makes the original malf ai the boss
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:56 pm
by carshalash
It's extra fun when command cards you for objecting to the additional AIs.
Rushing to make extra AIs roundstart is trash and ruins the round for the starting AI. You don't get to have a job change to do something else, you're stuck being the 'other' AI while the new one gets all the new cyborgs and shells by default.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:19 pm
by Armhulen
nianjiilical wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:36 pm
i think it would be funny if malf ais had a malf ability to cause other ais to malfunction with the same objectives and a law -1 that makes the original malf ai the boss
Passively malfing any AI if there is any other Malf AI in existence is a really good idea in terms of making people think a little more on whether they should be making AIs
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:35 pm
by vect0r
If we did do a passive, you could meta it by carding the AI to see if it's malf.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:15 pm
by Ryusenshu
Also that would enable people to create their valid (on lrp) , which they already do with law abuse/spam till an admin shows mercy and malfs
Dont think code change is needed here, just policy
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:13 pm
by zxaber
carshalash wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:56 pm
while the new one gets all the new cyborgs and shells by default.
This is incorrect. The code for assigning new borgs specifically load balances borgs across all AIs on the same Z level (or station levels for multi-z) that are not dead and are in a core. For this purpose, shells are tallied like regular borgs, meaning if you already have a round-start borg and the new AI has nothing, the new AI will get the first shell.
Of course, Robotics can intentionally set a shell's AI link to give all new borgs to the new AI, and are assholes if they do for no good reason.
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:31 pm
by Armhulen
vect0r wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:35 pm
If we did do a passive, you could meta it by carding the AI to see if it's malf.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, i'm sure there's a solution to this
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:21 pm
by blackdav123
Armhulen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:31 pm
vect0r wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:35 pm
If we did do a passive, you could meta it by carding the AI to see if it's malf.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, i'm sure there's a solution to this
just make the malfing an ability so that it only happens when the malf AI wants it to (and preferably has a borg ready to move the newly malfed AI)
Re: Roboticist and AIs making.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:24 pm
by spookuni
We have no interest in the general prohibition of station roboticists, research directors and command staff creating or ordering the creation of new AIs, multi-AI rounds have great potential for interesting and shenanigan filled silliness, and we have no intention of banning that wholesale.
With that said, Malf-metaing by taking a posibrain to become an AI and then revealing or contesting their actions is something admins are fully empowered to note and ban for under rules 1 and 2 - don't use respawns to fuck with people, dick move.
Additionally, we're supportive of empowering station AIs to directly action and combat new AIs made without their knowledge and/or consent. Switching off the APC of a new AI with an unknown lawset or killing it for getting in your way is fine.
Spook: As above
Rave: Agree with above
San: Agree with above
Misdoubtful: Agree with above