/tg/Station 13

Here's something interesting I never really pondered until it happened today. A hypothetical for you:

Mime joins the round and there's no command structure. They volunteer to take over as HoP and do so silently up until an antagonist kills them. When they come back, they speak, thus breaking their oath. Under the current rules, this makes them valid to attack, but here's where things get weird: Are they still a mime despite having a new job? Do they continue to be open to valids if they talk even if they're technically no longer a mime?

I've admittedly made it clear that I'm not really a fan of talking mimes being valid, but this thread isn't intended to question that, only to bring up an important point regarding the original ruling and how job changes interact with it.

So in short: If a Mime steps up and has their job changed, are they still open to being attacked if they speak?

Once a mime, always a mime.

If you can't do the time, don't roll the mime.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:07 pm If you can't do the time, don't roll the mime.

This is kind of where I imagined things were going to go, but I think we should codify it in the ruling if we intend on keeping it around for any amount of time.

Who knows, current term could come along and remove the validity of the mid-life crisis mime going through a career change?

I know this one! This is when a mime turned into a HOP, then talked, and once killed by the crew, raged in OOC chat, calling us redditors? Anyway, the mime has mime powers, and unless those get removed somehow, I think they valid salid.

The only way a mime should be able to leave the mime life is in a coffin

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:57 pm The only way a mime should be able to leave the mime life is in a coffin

HoP-mimes, Sec-mimes, all of that is pretty fun anyways

vect0r wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:50 pm I know this one! This is when a mime turned into a HOP, then talked, and once killed by the crew, raged in OOC chat, calling us redditors? Anyway, the mime has mime powers, and unless those get removed somehow, I think they valid salid.

Mime powers automatically get removed when you break the vow

But you can get them back after like 2 minutes, then you get powers back.

There is a fun answer and a boring answer, seek in your heart which is which.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:06 am There is a fun answer and a boring answer, seek in your heart which is which.

Don’t do the role if you can’t do the “VALID HE”

If you sign up as Mime, you're a Mime. Either remove the ability to re-take the oath of silence in order to keep mime powers (Which no one wants to happen in the first place), or Mimes need to stay as Mimes, even if they change jobs.

If clowns are forced to clumsy. Mimes are forced to remain silent. Or else!!!

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:32 pm Mime powers automatically get removed when you break the vow

You can retake the vow and instantly get back to using your silly wall if you need to save your skin. Talking mimes should enjoy the benefits of being killed, even if they try to drop their job.

Mime is in the heart (and the Mime datum), not in the ID

I still think its weird that the griefer rep headmin casually added "mimes who speak for any reason ever are turbo auto super valid" to the rules by fiat out of the blue and hardly anyone even blinked twice about it.

That said mime players are usually shitheads so its not like we lose anything by enabling the killbots

Let me further expand what I meant, I think that when you're signing up to a unique 1/1 role such as mime all the downsides and responsibilities of the role should remain throughout your time playing it. I don't think that you should be able to switch off to a different role and basically throw away everything that originally came with the 1/1 role.

If you change your job you're now the HoP mime- not the HoP. I hope this explanation helps explain my thoughts a bit more on the topic.

I've always appreciated Ari's words on this from the past:

Arianya wrote:Don't pick the gimmick role if you don't want to play the gimmick.

Breaking your oath should be something you consider as having implied weight to it - the best way to enforce this in a round-based game where an "oath" is largely meaningless is making it dangerous for the player's continued participation in the round.

Giga does raise good points about things such as mistaken cases of mime's speaking, but largely these are no different to other possible "mistaken kill" scenarios - we generally can tell a good faith actor vs someone trying to slip under the radar.

Why devalue the gimmick? How impactful is it really if someone can weasel out of it through technicalities?

'Don't pick the gimmick role if you don't want to play the gimmick.' Just join as HOP instead, no one is forcing you not to. Or, you know, you can always play the new role through the lens of the gimmick job YOU signed up for.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:57 pm I still think its weird that the griefer rep headmin casually added "mimes who speak for any reason ever are turbo auto super valid" to the rules by fiat out of the blue and hardly anyone even blinked twice about it.

That said mime players are usually shitheads so its not like we lose anything by enabling the killbots

I don't think that's a totally fair representation of it; Mimes are a crucial part of SS13 culture, they have traits tied to their mind datum, and by being the Mime you have possibly denied other people the opportunity to do Interesting Mime Things with the role (even if, as we must admit, they more often are just silent shitters). At the very least you should open up real Mime slots if you're going to unmime yourself, but really I don't think "don't sign up for a role with a gimmick you don't want to play" is unfair. The point of the Mime job slot is for there to be a Mime.

Several people (including Timberpoes, unless that's the person you're referring to as the griefer rep headmin) were pro "talk and get got" immediately.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:06 am There is a fun answer and a boring answer, seek in your heart which is which.

This sums it up pretty well. Forcing Mime Heads or Mimecurity to continue miming is way more entertaining than just letting them dip from Mimeness.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:42 pm

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:57 pm I still think its weird that the griefer rep headmin casually added "mimes who speak for any reason ever are turbo auto super valid" to the rules by fiat out of the blue and hardly anyone even blinked twice about it.

That said mime players are usually shitheads so its not like we lose anything by enabling the killbots

I don't think that's a totally fair representation of it; Mimes are a crucial part of SS13 culture, they have traits tied to their mind datum, and by being the Mime you have possibly denied other people the opportunity to do Interesting Mime Things with the role (even if, as we must admit, they more often are just silent shitters). At the very least you should open up real Mime slots if you're going to unmime yourself, but really I don't think "don't sign up for a role with a gimmick you don't want to play" is unfair. The point of the Mime job slot is for there to be a Mime.

Several people (including Timberpoes, unless that's the person you're referring to as the griefer rep headmin) were pro "talk and get got" immediately.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:06 am There is a fun answer and a boring answer, seek in your heart which is which.

This sums it up pretty well. Forcing Mime Heads or Mimecurity to continue miming is way more entertaining than just letting them dip from Mimeness.

ya but we used to bully them, call them a loser, everyone would give them shit for it until they went back to being a mime. It was never approved of for mimes to stop miming.

vect0r wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:07 am But you can get them back after like 2 minutes, then you get powers back.

Striders13 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:19 pm You can retake the vow and instantly get back to using your silly wall if you need to save your skin. Talking mimes should enjoy the benefits of being killed, even if they try to drop their job.

Fixed this https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/73817

Edit: nevermind

Skill issue if you can't HoP while being a mime. I have done it several times, at the very worst scenario I would just grab a new PDA and message whoever I need at the moment

willingly choosing to play as a mime should come with the intrinsic expectation that you commit to the mime life no matter what happens, with the understanding that if you betray the oath of silence you open yourself up to being relentlessly dunked on

its one of those things where i think the long-term culture and soul of the game should be a heavy priority just because its such a ss13 thing

(then again i think speaking mimes should at least be bullied in a funny/social way and not just wordlessly hunted down and slaughtered)

It’s funny to have a mime speak and then killed wordlessly and revived.

Mime is in the DNA, much like clown. I mean this literally in clowns case because they have clumsiness and whatnot. You can be a mime cargotech, but you're still a mime. If anything the state of being just default mime is just you being unemployed.

We aren't seeing any disagreements in this thread and everyone seems to be on the same page when it comes to the question of:

If a Mime steps up and has their job changed, are they still open to being attacked if they speak?

We feel that Ariyanas words from the past still do this the most justice:

viewtopic.php?p=519876#p519876

Don't pick the gimmick role if you don't want to play the gimmick.

Breaking your oath should be something you consider as having implied weight to it - the best way to enforce this in a round-based game where an "oath" is largely meaningless is making it dangerous for the player's continued participation in the round.

Giga does raise good points about things such as mistaken cases of mime's speaking, but largely these are no different to other possible "mistaken kill" scenarios - we generally can tell a good faith actor vs someone trying to slip under the radar.

Once a mime, always a mime.

See the associated headmin ruling under escalation rulings here:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Ru ... on_Rulings

Talking mimes are subject to punishment by the crew, excluding any form of round removal and making their body harder to find or revive.

We are also adding the following to the mime ruling there:

This is still true even if the mime changes job mid-shift. Once a mime, always a mime.