/tg/Station 13

There is a lot I want to unpack here because it`s in the same group of things that got me to stop wanting to play the game so I`ll just start by listing a few things from my perspective before asking questions.


Feel free to disagree with the following, they are all from my perspective and how I see it.

1. The Xeno egg is semi rare content for scientists and sci in general where scientists can opt to negotiate / attempt to train their Xenos into being domesticated because at the end of the day while xenos have the inherent right to kill anyone they want to, it usually boils down to if they actually want to or not and many times I've seen Xenos allowed to roam freely and only go to war with security who antagonized them. (And this is usually the type of war where non antag crew can side against security because security instigated it, same as sec - cytology clown wars)

2. Alot of the time, whenever there is a Xeno egg in xenobio, scientists and even sometimes the RD have very little/no say over what happens because the entire department gets tided by an extreme amount of people from varying departments, usually including the security team. It becomes a genuine nightmare for anyone that is trying to do xenobio and it gets even worse in instances where crew try to plasma flood the pen.

3. At round start a note is provided by centcomm giving the crew a task to take care of the specimen and that it was hard to get or something, this suggests that there inherently a reason to keep the xenos alive by default unless an event (lethal outbreak) overrides this.

4. I know this is a long shot but I also want to compare this to the SM, a --> hostile <-- xenomorph outbreak is potentially round ending and is the main excuse that apparently gives everyone a ticket to tide science, as of not too long ago in the timespan of this game, the SM has been made so that if engineers fail to take care of it properly (even a baby delam that doesnt cause singuloose) will result in a shuttle call due to repetitive nerfs to alternative power sources to encourage...ending the round? My point here is, both of these being massive station effecting things (the xeno egg and the sm) bare the same excuse of "we are allowed to tide it even before something is apparently going wrong because if it does go wrong itl end the round"

5. A. Sometimes (although rarely) a mob of people will wait outside of the xeno containment chamber for the larva to become a drone/praetorian/queen, then immediately kill it so they can brain transplant a crew member into the xeno and round remove the xeno. The reason being is since the random crew member won`t be allowed to go around killing crew. This not only feels bad for anyone that clicks yes to be a contained xeno larva, but it also feels extremely metagamey to know that someone isn't allowed to pull an Avatar and switch sides after being both biologically and culturally adopted by an alien race that provides them with all of their basic needs (and no wage slaving) *or just become mad with power over becoming a literal apex predator like any comic book villian*

5. B. This effectively removes one of the things that was neat about xenomorphs which was interacting with a third party and enticing them to be nice to you knowing that you're playing with another individual who has human level intelligence but you cant easily communicate directly with them.

5. C. This is also a horrible scenario for newer players if this was somehow their first time as a xenomorph, expecting to be able to use a unique toolset to interact with others, their antagonist status being entirely open ended so obviously leaning towards friendly (as most new players are when they don`t entirely know what's going on), only for their body to immediately get taken away from them by a mob of people and given to someone else, it looks awful from a meta perspective. It never happened to me but I still feel horrible from witnessing it.

6. An impression has been made on me that you cannot lynch mob a higher ranking staff who destroyed the egg.
An admin bwoinked me for announcing to everyone else in sci that the captain destroyed the egg at round start (we ended up spam shoving, stamcritting, and then looting the captain) The admin said something along the lines of "who are you to rally people to do that". They said they wernt gonna note me because of a bunch of "weird stuff" happening which is the main reason why this impression was left on me because they never said I wasn`t wrong, just that there were mitigating factors.

Okay so heres where my questions start now that you know where they are coming from.

Q1. Do scientists (and by extension engineers for SM since the same counter argument applies) have a right to pursue viable methods of removing mass amounts of people from their department when being mass tided over the xeno egg (especially scientists that want to do xenobio but cant focus due to crowd)

Viable as in...lethals....because lets be honest, anything that requires you to stand still and watch a bar fill up is not possible when you are being swarmed and shoved (cable cuffing, wall building, etc) (Atleast can we use lethals until action bars are viable again, example, scientists banded together, geared up and robusted a group of tiders then cable cuffed them and threw them out then built reinforced walls at their point of entry)

Q2. Do relevant staff (RD, Scientist, Sec officer?) have a right to mutiny/lynch higher ranking staff members that destroyed the egg/larva/drone/queen without a reason? (A reason can just be it left containment/xenobio but I keep seeing rounds where they are killed for just existing in their containment) sec might be relevant since its destroying expensive Nano Trasen property/sci`s content.

Q3. Should crew who are brain transplanted into xenomorphs be allowed to divert to entirely xenomorph nature in order to dissuade the whole "Brain transplant this guy into a hivemind predator with its own hierarchy and needs inherently satisfied because i know he cant hurt me"

I also wanna add that the last 2 times I experienced a xeno egg in containment i was gibbed, not by the xenos that I was trying to give a translator bci implant to, but by other people (non antags) who were spamming the containment field on and off, which really goes to show how little control scientists have over xenobio even when the xenos are being passive and letting them walk in their chamber and build a bci implanter. (Both times I think was the ai though so go figure)

This is already covered by rule 1, precedent 6. Quote: "You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."

Also, what reality are you playing in where "The SM exists" is given as an excuse to break in to engineering? I'm an Engineer main, and I've never heard this used. If someone tries to say that after they break in to engineering, I'm gonna ask them to leave, and if they don't, then, I'm gonna call security, and if there is no security, I'm gonna attack them with a welder.

Okay, actually, I guess that only answers question 1, and partially question 2.

Question 1, yes, use lethals on the tiders. (Ask them to leave, calmly, first though of course. And try having security/command handle them first. But if neither of those work out then yes, use lethals)
Question 2, yes, you can mutiny/lynch command for destroying your xenos for no good reason
Question 3, ehhh, no comment but it feels metagamey to me.

Xenos almost always escape and then create a nest that kills lots of crew, so it makes total sense security would want to keep an eye on it (because of course).

It's also a sort of rare event so it also makes sense the crew will want to come and look at it, scientists mass murdering the crowd that comes to look at it is a bizarre response. Would make sense to just handle the tiding as you would any other tiding.

Last time I saw this event the RD was trying to release them while sec was trying to kill them. The time before that the RD got implanted and became a xeno ally then the xenos escaped and killed everyone except the RD. Does not seem to me the xeno egg needs extra protections in rules.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:39 amIt's also a sort of rare event so it also makes sense the crew will want to come and look at it, scientists mass murdering the crowd that comes to look at it is a bizarre response. Would make sense to just handle the tiding as you would any other tiding.

Correct, you handle it like any other tiding. And just because there's a xeno egg event, doesn't mean everyone can tide science without repercussions or consulting the science team. You tide, you put yourself at risk.

2. Alot of the time, whenever there is a Xeno egg in xenobio, scientists and even sometimes the RD have very little/no say over what happens because the entire department gets tided by an extreme amount of people from varying departments, usually including the security team. It becomes a genuine nightmare for anyone that is trying to do xenobio and it gets even worse in instances where crew try to plasma flood the pen.

This is the only issue I have with the egg's existence. I have seen some people do some extremely stupid shit in the name of "I WANt to See the eGG".

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:20 am This is already covered by rule 1, precedent 6. Quote: "You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."

The main reason why I`m not entirely sure that rule 1 covers it is because the sheer volume of people is extremely different from normal tiding situations and completely removes any ability to use nonlethals (im talking 10+ people) Playing as a scientist during a xeno egg round is like being shrek when all of the fairy tale creatures go to his swamp and last time I had to deal with that sort of situation (like 8 people breaking into and flooding my maint base so i mass firelocked them) it resulted in people constantly asking me if i was an antagonist in d chat when they broke my shit to get in and wouldnt leave.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:20 am Question 3, ehhh, no comment but it feels metagamey to me.

The only other thing I wanna bring up about 3 is the more people do it the more the xeno egg is just a chance that non antag crew have access to fully tame non antag crew xenos due to how easy it is to just kill the drone while its trapped in containment. (you could even plasmaflood it and ask a borg to drag its body out) if this becomes meta it would become something that is done every time there is xenos since youre basically taking all of the risk out of xenos and putting someone who cant be antag (like a sec officer) into a queen since all xenos have to obey their queen. (Thank god revs and cultists hard counter this but I feel bad for any solo/midrounds when this happens, one time it happened during nukies)

Looking at this from a roleplay perspective:
- Nanotrasen has given you an expensive and presumably hard to acquire sample.
- They want you to study it.
- Said sample is also extremely dangerous and has serious consequences if it breaks containment.
- A bunch of interns are attempting to break into a portion of the station so secure that it's behind a double cycling airlock on some maps.
- Said interns are here to either destroy really expensive sample or release really dangerous sample.

Given the above facts, I personally would do whatever it takes to get rid of them, including using lethal force. Security is allowed to use lethal force on mobs and I see no reason why other workers with even less access to nonlethals would be any different. This is also no different from breaking into engineering to see the supermatter.

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 4:21 pm

2. Alot of the time, whenever there is a Xeno egg in xenobio, scientists and even sometimes the RD have very little/no say over what happens because the entire department gets tided by an extreme amount of people from varying departments, usually including the security team. It becomes a genuine nightmare for anyone that is trying to do xenobio and it gets even worse in instances where crew try to plasma flood the pen.

This is the only issue I have with the egg's existence. I have seen some people do some extremely stupid shit in the name of "I WANt to See the eGG".

One of my favourite mini-events to run is the "Oh no a spacial anomaly appeared / the gateway activated and some things fell through" command report accompanied by spawning like two dozen retaliate mobs in a room like EVA where the mobs can't actually leave but the crew can see them. It's a fantastic barometer for just how neanderthal the crew are on any given day because they could just leave the door shut and leave it be but they never do, always someone feels the urge to "resolve" the situation.

The best mobs to use are the ones that have AI that's completely passive if you leave them alone, but they retaliate to attacks and help other mobs of their faction that are attacked, especially if they have the combination of "peaceful unless engaged" and "will absolutely wreck your shit". The reason for this is because any shit-wrecking that ensues is the crew's fault, which makes it 500% funnier.

MooCow12 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:55 am Q2. Do relevant staff (RD, Scientist, Sec officer?) have a right to mutiny/lynch higher ranking staff members that destroyed the egg/larva/drone/queen without a reason? (A reason can just be it left containment/xenobio but I keep seeing rounds where they are killed for just existing in their containment) sec might be relevant since its destroying expensive Nano Trasen property/sci`s content.

This is really the only thing I have to comment on regarding the entire xeno egg in xenobiology situation: the only way the xenos don't get loose is if nobody ever interacts with the egg. People shouldn't be forced to suffer through a xenos round just because the egg has a tiny spawn chance, and they shouldn't be forced to sit in deadchat just because they stopped you from derailing the round with xenos.
The damn thing doesn't provide enough RP or mechanical fun for the risks involved in using it. I barely even consider it scientist job content, and I used to main science; it's ultimately security's job content when the creatures get loose.

Whether the content is fun or not is a code issue. Policy-wise, the content exists in Science, and should be their task to handle (or bumble).

A more appropriate action would be the Captain, HoS, Warden, or any remaining head of staff putting in several orders of laser crates, to prepare for a possible release.

If people want to see the egg, set up a public camera console. Losing control and authority of your own depatment to tiders is never fun, and I will defend anyone that uses lethals against a tide refusing to leave.

1) Lethality isn't something you should strive for until your life is threatened. Wanting to destroy a potentially round ending threat isn't a crime but people shouldn't try to end it before the egg hatches. That being said those trespassing in science are open to removal for trespass as they would be at any normal point and time.

2) The xenos are an antagonistic force. You should not be punishing people for killing them if they are hatched- however, you are free to punish people if they kill the egg upon seeing it before anything is done.

3) Don't freely give people antag through meta means. Just don't.

The headmins: Agree with above