Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

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Chadley
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Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #674675

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the past. Still, especially with the disgruntled peanuts about security as of late, this trend of silent arrests, and more so silent executions makes people livid. It's a dick move to stun someone silently, it only gets worse when it's sec and you can't retaliate and don't even know why.

I understand the nuance, if someone has contraband or is actively killing someone, sec doesn't want to type out what they're doing and risk getting the business end of the esword, but after someone is cuffed, they at least deserve an explanation.

There's a case that can be argued about how under Security Rule 6, sec that are arresting people silently is kill baiting as they're much more likely to resist, act like an antagonist, or receive help from the people around them than if they were to be arrested and then receive reasoning from the officer.
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I believe a precedent of explaining yourself after the suspect is in cuffs is the least sec can do to calm the waves, even in Sybil. Nobody should have to learn the reason they were arrested/killed by sec in an ahelp. It's not an MRP-specific thing to tell someone why they're being arrested or executed, it's an NRP thing to be silent.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #674720

Silent arrests were an adaptation by security to the shitty playstyles of the crew. The most effective strategy as security is to stun, cuff, and drag to the brig as quickly as possible, and deal with matters of law in the relatively safe area of security. If you try to do anything else, the rest of the crew, EVEN NONANTAG CREW, will interfere, shove you, help the criminals run away, and probably strip you and steal your gear.

If you want to fix the issue of silent arrests, you need to fix the cause, not the symptom. You need to push for rules about non-antag crew, ESPECIALLY THE GREYTIDE, interfering in arrests first, not punishing Security for adapting to the issues they face.
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Chadley
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #674721

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:14 am Silent arrests were an adaptation by security to the shitty playstyles of the crew. The most effective strategy as security is to stun, cuff, and drag to the brig as quickly as possible, and deal with matters of law in the relatively safe area of security. If you try to do anything else, the rest of the crew, EVEN NONANTAG CREW, will interfere, shove you, help the criminals run away, and probably strip you and steal your gear.

If you want to fix the issue of silent arrests, you need to fix the cause, not the symptom. You need to push for rules about non-antag crew, ESPECIALLY THE GREYTIDE, interfering in arrests first, not punishing Security for adapting to the issues they face.
There are rules about tiding.
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There is a precedent that already exists for members of the crew assisting an antagonist. If you're making security's life hell, likely, you're next on the list. Moreover, I believe this provides more of a reason offload some of the pressure onto sec. Sec members stating the reason for arrest, especially "Enemy of Nanotrasen" is pretty damning, if someone decides they want to intervene with a traitor being arrested, or a changeling they will likely be arrested and killed too.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Striders13 » #674722

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:14 am Silent arrests were an adaptation by security to the shitty playstyles of the crew. The most effective strategy as security is to stun, cuff, and drag to the brig as quickly as possible, and deal with matters of law in the relatively safe area of security. If you try to do anything else, the rest of the crew, EVEN NONANTAG CREW, will interfere, shove you, help the criminals run away, and probably strip you and steal your gear.

If you want to fix the issue of silent arrests, you need to fix the cause, not the symptom. You need to push for rules about non-antag crew, ESPECIALLY THE GREYTIDE, interfering in arrests first, not punishing Security for adapting to the issues they face.
I've noted and banned people for interfering with valid arrests before for no reason other than "they're my tider metafriend :)", but I'm not sure if I want to keep punishing people for it, as I do like SOME nonantag-sec conflict, and it's hard to strike balance.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #674724

Chadley wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:23 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:14 am Silent arrests were an adaptation by security to the shitty playstyles of the crew. The most effective strategy as security is to stun, cuff, and drag to the brig as quickly as possible, and deal with matters of law in the relatively safe area of security. If you try to do anything else, the rest of the crew, EVEN NONANTAG CREW, will interfere, shove you, help the criminals run away, and probably strip you and steal your gear.

If you want to fix the issue of silent arrests, you need to fix the cause, not the symptom. You need to push for rules about non-antag crew, ESPECIALLY THE GREYTIDE, interfering in arrests first, not punishing Security for adapting to the issues they face.
There are rules about tiding.
1.4
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4.1
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There is a precedent that already exists for members of the crew assisting an antagonist. If you're making security's life hell, likely, you're next on the list. Moreover, I believe this provides more of a reason offload some of the pressure onto sec. Sec members stating the reason for arrest, especially "Enemy of Nanotrasen" is pretty damning, if someone decides they want to intervene with a traitor being arrested, or a changeling they will likely be arrested and killed too.
If an admin pops in right now and says I can ahelp members of the crew for interfering in arrests provided I went through the effort of properly roleplaying arrest procedures, regardless of whether I know the member of the crew interfering is an antagonist or not (And if they turn out not to be, they will actually be punished, unless they have a sufficient IC reasoning), we can wrap up this thread right now with a simple "yeah sure I agree with you that's fine, silent arrests suck.". Including on Sybil, since that's where I actually play.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #674729

There is a very obvious reason this happens but it may not be apparent to admins who have been afflicted with the rare dopaminergic pathway known as "good faith gameplay" that inexplicably rewards pleasure in exchange for helping people. You have to put yourself in the mind of 95% of the sec players that are actually filling the job slots of these rounds.

Finding a sec officer that derives pleasure from calmly cuffing an engineer that broke into a department and putting them in the brig for 3 min while they watch their cell timer tick down, to then release them with a kiss on the cheek and all of their items back, is like looking for Lot in sodom and gomorrah. Officers DO NOT play for this reason. In the vast majority of cases the pleasure of the role is derived purely from shadenfreude, a dash of sadism, and a sprinkling of the gamergear bought from the uplinks.

The thing that you have to accept is that the VAST majority of officers will enter a murderous, unhinged rage at being slipped, shoved, or otherwise minorly inconvenienced, particularly by someone with less gear than them. Whether that is because they are overwhelmed in the chaos of LRP, a shove away from having a mental breakdown OOCly, or because their ego has been damaged and the only cure is the crunch of the kneecaps of the grey who stole their shoes, that is up for interpretation - but regardless, here is the point I'm trying to make:

In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted. Admins more than anyone should be well aware of what sort of players LRP sec attracts. For those uninitiated I can share a few anecdotes. Yesterday on Sybil I was cuffed and thrown into a pit of lava for nonlethally evading an invalid arrest. A couple days before that on Terry the HoS attempted to arrest me because he believed being burned naked at a stake the chaplain set up was not torture enough for the theft of his hat. A couple weeks before that the captain sent me and another fellow to a 1000 point gulag sentence for slipping him a single time outside the brig. A few weeks before this I was kneecapped for clicking the rest button while being dragged to brig for the crime of welding a wall to tech storage.

The best part about these examples though, is in about half of them, the officers were the ones to ahelp; they were the ones to weaponize the admins when they received the response that any other role would deserve to receive if they were not playing under the guise of a good-faith peacekeeper to justify their untold shittery.

Given this is how LRP security is generally played, you should not be at all even momentarily surprised when random assistants will run up and attempt to shove them for dragging their grey buddy away. Sec are given flashbangs, teargas, and precedent allowing them to smash anyone who interferes in their arrests, they absolutely do not also need OOC protection for this.

The officers that are terrible enough to merit this treatment, which is most of them, will dislike the job and play something else. The officers that have the right attitude will consider it job content for when things are slow, and their good humor and approach will be a breath of fresh air that breeds a similar sort of kindness and good faith from the very same "self-antaggy" types that otherwise would make their jobs miserable.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #674734

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:54 am
Finding a sec officer that derives pleasure from calmly cuffing an engineer that broke into a department and putting them in the brig for 3 min while they watch their cell timer tick down, to then release them with a kiss on the cheek and all of their items back, is like looking for Lot in sodom and gomorrah. Officers DO NOT play for this reason. In the vast majority of cases the pleasure of the role is derived purely from shadenfreude, a dash of sadism, and a sprinkling of the gamergear bought from the uplinks.
I play sec to get joy from following the HOS around like his personal henchman and laugh at any jokes he makes
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Mice World » #674747

I don't agree with an official ruling, but it would be nice to see security interact with criminals (or would be criminals) before feeding them baton. However as Imitates said, right now it usually isn't productive to do so and it won't be unless admins start banning more tiders.

I ended up typing up an over dramatized summary of my thoughts about sec v tiders. It's only slightly related so It's in the spoiler below.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #674752

Mice World wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:44 am I don't agree with an official ruling, but it would be nice to see security interact with criminals (or would be criminals) before feeding them baton. However as Imitates said, right now it usually isn't productive to do so and it won't be unless admins start banning more tiders.
There are two approaches really. You can either roleplay and talk to every would-be criminal, antag or not, and just take the risk that comes with not approaching mechanically first; or you can only seek to arrest people you actually have solid, rock-hard evidence to arrest. People who are confirmed traitors, who are confirmed heretics, murderers, etc. The first option will almost always, always end in a peaceful resolution that doesn't even require an arrest (unless it's an antag who jumps you). The second option will generally not attract the tide since the tide are just as quick to validhunt traitors as sec is, but if it does now they're bordering on self-antag behavior especially if the interference results in harm to the seccie.

Both of these approaches don't require explicitly informing the would-be criminal you're arresting them, since you're either forgoing the arrest to settle it amicably or you have them dead to rights and the reason isn't even needed. It's an odd policy proposal because sec shouldn't be bothering people that don't deserve to be arrested to begin with, and if they deserve it you both know why. I can only see it being useful on the offchance sec has the wrong guy or made a mistake, but sec should know when it's shaky and choose those scenarios to stop and question. If they don't they're opening themselves up to escalation for an invalid arrest.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Mice World » #674760

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:26 am It's an odd policy proposal because sec shouldn't be arresting people that don't deserve to be arrested to begin with, and if they deserve it you both know why. I can only see it being useful on the offchance sec has the wrong guy or made a mistake, but sec should know when that's the case and be able to choose those scenarios to stop and question.
It depends on how you view sec, really. For people that think sec should be rolepaying as space cops this policy makes sense. But right now sec is mostly just the anti-antag squad. I'm not opposed to a more roleplay focused security I think it'd be interesting, but security needs a lot of change before it can even be considered.

Security currently can't stop IC grief effectively. Their only reasonable punishment is to put people in time out. Most times this actually makes it worse, because it isn't an IC punishment, it's an OOC punishment. Even when dealing with antagonists, for most people execution is still just time out. That isn't to say that security can't currently roleplay, they still can, it's just their job systems don't really complement it.

From what I've seen most people pick security for one reason. Guaranteed conflict. This is also why a lot of people pick assistant. For conflict and more freedom to goof off. Because unlike playing sec you don't have a whole wiki page telling you how you should be acting (Except for the core rules of course).
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #674772

Mice World wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:02 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:26 am It's an odd policy proposal because sec shouldn't be arresting people that don't deserve to be arrested to begin with, and if they deserve it you both know why. I can only see it being useful on the offchance sec has the wrong guy or made a mistake, but sec should know when that's the case and be able to choose those scenarios to stop and question.
It depends on how you view sec, really. For people that think sec should be rolepaying as space cops this policy makes sense. But right now sec is mostly just the anti-antag squad. I'm not opposed to a more roleplay focused security I think it'd be interesting, but security needs a lot of change before it can even be considered.
I have seen a select few people play sec like this to great success. They simply talk to suspects, even sometimes confirmed traitors. They have an amicable little chat that might end with "I'm keeping my eye on you buddy" - it doesn't lead to an arrest so stating an arrest reason would just be bizarre. Few people happily roleplay getting arrested so I can't see a Miranda Rights suggestion working for even the most RP-oriented of sec players.
Mice World wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:02 pmSecurity currently can't stop IC grief effectively. Their only reasonable punishment is to put people in time out. Most times this actually makes it worse, because it isn't an IC punishment, it's an OOC punishment. Even when dealing with antagonists, for most people execution is still just time out. That isn't to say that security can't currently roleplay, they still can, it's just their job systems don't really complement it.
Most people would rather go catatonic than interact with security in cuffs. I have seen antags who I fully intended to release with their uplinks go catatonic upon being brought to the brig, because sec RP is often just "how can we torture and entertain ourselves with this sentient body for 15 minutes." Solution isn't a rulebased one as you'd just turn sec into bots that shove people into isolation wordlessly instead. This antagonistic sort of dynamic creates its own form of engaging conflict as you mentioned, with the downside of the job being unfun if you're not in the mood for a lot of conflict.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Turbonerd » #674776

People should not be interrupting arrests if security follows proper operating procedure. It's just self antagging, and becomes unfun if every grey Joe prevents every arrest on the station. That conflict should be reserved for actual antagonists trying to create conflict.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Archie700 » #674784

Striders13 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:28 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:14 am Silent arrests were an adaptation by security to the shitty playstyles of the crew. The most effective strategy as security is to stun, cuff, and drag to the brig as quickly as possible, and deal with matters of law in the relatively safe area of security. If you try to do anything else, the rest of the crew, EVEN NONANTAG CREW, will interfere, shove you, help the criminals run away, and probably strip you and steal your gear.

If you want to fix the issue of silent arrests, you need to fix the cause, not the symptom. You need to push for rules about non-antag crew, ESPECIALLY THE GREYTIDE, interfering in arrests first, not punishing Security for adapting to the issues they face.
I've noted and banned people for interfering with valid arrests before for no reason other than "they're my tider metafriend :)", but I'm not sure if I want to keep punishing people for it, as I do like SOME nonantag-sec conflict, and it's hard to strike balance.
General idea, if you have half of security chasing after you because you keep griefing security for trying to arrest your metafriend for breaking into bridge to steal the captain's ID, you went too far.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #674860

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:54 am
In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted. Admins more than anyone should be well aware of what sort of players LRP sec attracts. For those uninitiated I can share a few anecdotes. Yesterday on Sybil I was cuffed and thrown into a pit of lava for nonlethally evading an invalid arrest. A couple days before that on Terry the HoS attempted to arrest me because he believed being burned naked at a stake the chaplain set up was not torture enough for the theft of his hat. A couple weeks before that the captain sent me and another fellow to a 1000 point gulag sentence for slipping him a single time outside the brig. A few weeks before this I was kneecapped for clicking the rest button while being dragged to brig for the crime of welding a wall to tech storage.
I can understand your frustration, but what you're describing is extremely circular reasoning. What you're describing is on the officer, which is exactly why there should be accountability for the officer. Why are you arguing that there shouldn't be a policy stopping sec from acting like megalomaniacs? It-it-what-it-is doesn't solve the issues here. In those cases the appropriate action is ahelping. Being round removed for something like that, 1000 point gulag, kneecapping is excessive escalation.

There's a reason sec officers have been queuing up in the ban appeals. This is the reason you're describing.

Etch it in stone that sec needs to chill the fuck out.


I don't believe every case requires you to talk it out before you give them the business end of your sec gear, but if you have the gal to baton someone wordlessly, then you should be well aware that there is some form of retaliation to come.

I've seen and tried both sec styles, and the one that has the least headache involves using your words at some point in the interaction.

Something as much as putting someone in cuffs and then saying "You're being arrested for stealing the fireaxe", or the appeal to the edgier Sybil Sec officers, just pointing to the contraband can be enough in some situations.

If I'm a traitor, and haven't done anything violent only to be stun batoned, stripped, and killed, I'm going to be infinitely more pissed than if they are to baton me, point at the fingerprint scanner, and then point at whatever blatant traitor gear I have. At least then I know their train of thought.


I remember reading a complaint a while back all stemming from this issue of silent sec. Establishing that if you're not going to say a word, you're going to be seen as a griefer clears up a lot of the issues brought up here.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by BeeSting12 » #674872

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:54 am In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted. Admins more than anyone should be well aware of what sort of players LRP sec attracts. For those uninitiated I can share a few anecdotes. Yesterday on Sybil I was cuffed and thrown into a pit of lava for nonlethally evading an invalid arrest.
Not to derail the thread but this is complete bullshit. You broke into the armory and got thrown in the lava for it. Otherwise, I would've gulagged you because you quite literally stole half my gear just because I was trying to stop you from kidnapping someone.

I used to have much more of a tase first ask questions later playstyle. I've moved away from that because I care less about winning. Usually if I'm arresting someone or searching someone I'll ask nicely first. However, when I actually want to arrest someone I see nothing wrong with silently tasing, cuffing, and taking to the brig before I tell them why. As long as they find out at some point it doesn't matter. I'm okay with tiders fucking around as long as security is allowed to make them find out. In the above example, sinfulbliss got to find out and the admin had zero problem with it.

I see a lot of people who make it their playstyle to roll assistant and do everything in their power to minor IC crime their way onto sec's wanted list so they can nonlethally fuck with officers the whole round. Until that playstyle isn't common, I'm going to keep wordlessly stunning people.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Pandarsenic » #674881

When I play sec I try to solve every problem I can by saying "Bro, could you please not?" and it very rarely works. Most of the time, I think, if someone doesn't know why they're being arrested it's because the Detective actually did their job and figured out something they did earlier. We don't really have Huge Brain Crime Plays like putting your own fingerprint registry as someone else's anymore.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by TheLoLSwat » #674901

I dont see what this would really do. Sec would still do wordless arrests, they would just say the reason while slapping cuffs or back in sec. If (somehow) you required sec to explain arrests before the cuffs are on then sec is finished because people will just run or attack sec. Eventually when sec realize that the person being arrested doesnt need to actually understand (assuming you told them in good faith) as long as there is good proof, then the explanations will become shorter and shorter until its just a formality. Your "problem officers" will still be just that, but theyll have a notepad of terms to copy paste as soon as they step into brig such as:

"traitor"
"broke into armory"
"ling"

However, this is on the right path since arrests should include atleast basic rp and the headmins should atleast think about how they can stop insta-catatonics after being arrested and NRP stuff from sec side
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #674953

people who ssd cuz they got a 2 min brig timer are, peak cringe
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #674974

Chadley wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:03 pm I can understand your frustration, but what you're describing is extremely circular reasoning. What you're describing is on the officer, which is exactly why there should be accountability for the officer. Why are you arguing that there shouldn't be a policy stopping sec from acting like megalomaniacs?
There should be! I just find Miranda Rights a bit too strict for a policy since it’d require sec to pause and state their arrest reasons to potential antags who could instantly stun them or teleport away while they’re typing. Announcing the arrest reason on radio would be better if you wanted to require this.

Here’s the way I think about it when I’m sec. If I’m wordlessly arresting someone without a stated reason, I could very well be an antagonist. So that person can resist how they like. If the guy’s not an antag, or my arrest reason turned out to be invalid, and he ends up resisting and killing me, that is simply the risk I took when I chose a wordless arrest. You can and should be able to opt for the wordless option, but at your own peril if you have your info wrong.

Off-topic reply to Beesting:
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BeeSting12 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:44 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:54 am In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted. Admins more than anyone should be well aware of what sort of players LRP sec attracts. For those uninitiated I can share a few anecdotes. Yesterday on Sybil I was cuffed and thrown into a pit of lava for nonlethally evading an invalid arrest.
Not to derail the thread but this is complete bullshit. You broke into the armory and got thrown in the lava for it. Otherwise, I would've gulagged you because you quite literally stole half my gear just because I was trying to stop you from kidnapping someone.

I used to have much more of a tase first ask questions later playstyle. I've moved away from that because I care less about winning. Usually if I'm arresting someone or searching someone I'll ask nicely first. However, when I actually want to arrest someone I see nothing wrong with silently tasing, cuffing, and taking to the brig before I tell them why. As long as they find out at some point it doesn't matter. I'm okay with tiders fucking around as long as security is allowed to make them find out. In the above example, sinfulbliss got to find out and the admin had zero problem with it.

I see a lot of people who make it their playstyle to roll assistant and do everything in their power to minor IC crime their way onto sec's wanted list so they can nonlethally fuck with officers the whole round. Until that playstyle isn't common, I'm going to keep wordlessly stunning people.
I was completely naked and stunned by beepsky in the armory, after I was already cuffed you took me to gulag and chucked me into lava. The “kidnapping” was actually me trying to get back a stolen item that was taken from me by the person, but you went straight to a wordless arrest so of course my choice was to nonlethally evade. So essentially you opted for round removal over a conflict you caused due to a wordless, invalid arrest. This is a very common sec trope.

If you’d like I can replace this with the example of you beartrapping me while in cuffs, shooting a welder tank purposely during the chase, and doing other cringe torture RP in brig, then ahelping when I killed you for it. Officers like you are very quick to say “fuck around and find out,” but when the same rule applies to them they bitch and moan ceaselessly to the admins.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #674987

sinfulbliss wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:51 am
There should be! I just find Miranda Rights a bit too strict for a policy since it’d require sec to pause and state their arrest reasons to potential antags who could instantly stun them or teleport away while they’re typing. Announcing the arrest reason on radio would be better if you wanted to require this.

Here’s the way I think about it when I’m sec. If I’m wordlessly arresting someone without a stated reason, I could very well be an antagonist. So that person can resist how they like. If the guy’s not an antag, or my arrest reason turned out to be invalid, and he ends up resisting and killing me, that is simply the risk I took when I chose a wordless arrest. You can and should be able to opt for the wordless option, but at your own peril if you have your info wrong.
I don't believe it has to be before the arrest, once you have the antag in cuffs, telling them "You're being executed for being a ling (traitor, heretic, otherwise Enemy of Nanotrasen)" before you kill them holds some accountability in text for the reason for the sec's actions.

Same thing if they were just making a generic arrest. Sec stuns and cuffs you and then says "you were suspected of being a traitor, we've found that not to be true, apologies". The step beyond that would be what you're describing, talking to the person first. I would love for LRP and MRP, if you suspect the person is non-violent with no means of escape (teleporter, bluespace peels, etc) you should talk to them first, ask them to see their bag, and make the motions.

However, if you have reasonable cause to baton first, and explain later, that's understandable. Make that clear afterward. Explain "there were reports of a doctor heretic, assuming you were a tic, I couldn't risk you shattering to get away". You might still get a "fuck you shitsec", but I'd argue any good-faith player will sigh, shake it off and say "okay" rather than shoving you after they're uncuffed or making a massive fit about it.

Plus it creates a sentiment moving forward that if you don't know why you're being arrested, rather than screaming shitsec over the radio, awaiting the reason for the arrest.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #674991

If I may Chadley, this thread is kind of going all over the place. You've gone from "Silent arrests and executions bad" to "Silent arrests sometimes okay actually, but explain yourself in the brig when you get a moment", which is....already the standard sec playstyle in the first place.

Can you please clarify what policy change you're asking for at this time?
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #675044

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:40 am If I may Chadley, this thread is kind of going all over the place. You've gone from "Silent arrests and executions bad" to "Silent arrests sometimes okay actually, but explain yourself in the brig when you get a moment", which is....already the standard sec playstyle in the first place.

Can you please clarify what policy change you're asking for at this time?
Chadley wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:11 am
I believe a precedent of explaining yourself after the suspect is in cuffs is the least sec can do to calm the waves, even in Sybil. Nobody should have to learn the reason they were arrested/killed by sec in an ahelp. It's not an MRP-specific thing to tell someone why they're being arrested or executed, it's an NRP thing to be silent.
Sec should explain themselves for all their actions at the time of the arrest.

In a non-violent encounter where they can't escape by extreme means (teleporting, hard stuns) they should be talked to before cuffing/stunning, then escalating from there.

If there is a violent encounter, or assumed violent encounter, cuffing/stunning and then immediately telling them what for, especially if you're about to kill them should be required.

Nobody should have to guess what they did until they're in a cell, or worse, dead.


Sorry if that wasn't initially clear as the point of this, it derailed rapidly with all the peanuts of sec=bad experiences.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #675184

Chadley wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:45 pmNobody should have to guess what they did until they're in a cell, or worse, dead.
Reasonable for executions (Assuming no additional circumstances), maybe not reasonable for arrests for brigged offenses. If the officer doesn't feel safe until you've been stripped of your gear and buckled to a bed in the safe confines of security in a cell, that's up to the determination of the officer based on the circumstances of the shift and their reading of the crew. Forcing security at metaphorical gunpoint to type out offenses in the middle of the halls before dragging someone off to the Brig just so the literal Traitor with an emag and a doorjack in his backpack "Isn't left guessing" what they did, is an unreasonable burden that opens up security to too much interference. I am opposed.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #675262

If someone is interrupting an arrest for no reason besides "I hate sec", I have no problem asking them to chill the fuck out about it.

There's something to be said about stopping sec from arresting your friends, but that shouldn't go past "being kind of annoying". If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
SinfulBliss wrote:In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted.
This opinion honestly sucks because you can just assume that any sec player is automatically shit in literally any situation but that doesn't give you the right nor the privilege of breaking the rules. Fucking adminhelp if someone's being shit sec. Stop pretending like it's your job to admin the server, we're here for a reason.

If you do stupid shit to a sec player, they brig/kill you over it, and you adminhelp, I'm not going to do anything for you. Don't do stupid shit to sec if there's no reason to do it other than "I automatically assume anyone playing sec is an asshole".
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #675271

Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm There's something to be said about stopping sec from arresting your friends, but that shouldn't go past "being kind of annoying". If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
The wordless approach increases the chances sec gets tided while making an arrest, because they've provided no one any justification and just silently imposed themselves forcefully for a reason only they know.
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm
SinfulBliss wrote:In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted.
This opinion honestly sucks because you can just assume that any sec player is automatically shit in literally any situation but that doesn't give you the right nor the privilege of breaking the rules. Fucking adminhelp if someone's being shit sec. Stop pretending like it's your job to admin the server, we're here for a reason.
It shouldn't be considered rulebreaking to tide a sec officer that's being shit. I dislike this idea you and a few others admins express that ahelping is a player's ONLY recourse against sec acting improperly. If they are doing something that would qualify as a rulebreak, i.e. randomly spamming teargas and flashbangs for fun or robbing crewmembers, surely that would fall under "acting like an antag" and allow crew to treat them as such.
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pmIf you do stupid shit to a sec player, they brig/kill you over it, and you adminhelp, I'm not going to do anything for you. Don't do stupid shit to sec if there's no reason to do it other than "I automatically assume anyone playing sec is an asshole".
Interfering in arrests makes the player valid, so of course it wouldn't be ahelpable. I also am not assuming everyone playing sec is an asshole. That would be quite silly since I've played 1000+ hours of sec myself. But it is QUITE often the case arrests are invalid, for bad reason, malicious purposes, sec is doing something substandard, etc., and in all those cases it is morally good to disrupt them.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #675296

sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:17 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm There's something to be said about stopping sec from arresting your friends, but that shouldn't go past "being kind of annoying". If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
The wordless approach increases the chances sec gets tided while making an arrest, because they've provided no one any justification and just silently imposed themselves forcefully for a reason only they know.
This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, the only reason sec officers do the wordless thing is because they know if they try to do it right some shithead is going to come running out of maints to break things up.
sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:17 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm
SinfulBliss wrote:In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted.
This opinion honestly sucks because you can just assume that any sec player is automatically shit in literally any situation but that doesn't give you the right nor the privilege of breaking the rules. Fucking adminhelp if someone's being shit sec. Stop pretending like it's your job to admin the server, we're here for a reason.
It shouldn't be considered rulebreaking to tide a sec officer that's being shit. I dislike this idea you and a few others admins express that ahelping is a player's ONLY recourse against sec acting improperly. If they are doing something that would qualify as a rulebreak, i.e. randomly spamming teargas and flashbangs for fun or robbing crewmembers, surely that would fall under "acting like an antag" and allow crew to treat them as such.
I'm not saying that it's your only recourse, I'm saying that you should be reporting people who are breaking the rules, including rule 1. If someone is being a dick, you should tell us so we can talk to them and make them stop being a dick.
sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:17 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pmIf you do stupid shit to a sec player, they brig/kill you over it, and you adminhelp, I'm not going to do anything for you. Don't do stupid shit to sec if there's no reason to do it other than "I automatically assume anyone playing sec is an asshole".
Interfering in arrests makes the player valid, so of course it wouldn't be ahelpable. I also am not assuming everyone playing sec is an asshole. That would be quite silly since I've played 1000+ hours of sec myself. But it is QUITE often the case arrests are invalid, for bad reason, malicious purposes, sec is doing something substandard, etc., and in all those cases it is morally good to disrupt them.
They become valid, so that 1) increases sec's workload because now there are two people they have to deal with and 2) if that person becomes valid, they get to beat the piss out of anyone for attacking them. There's absolutely no way this works out in sec's favor ever.

In a futile attempt to stay on topic, I think holding sec to something like reading rights is WAY too HRP for our server, but I'm not going to stop bwoinking people for needlessly interfering in every arrest as much as I'm also not going to stop bwoinking sec for wordlessly arresting people. Also,
sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:17 pm I also am not assuming everyone playing sec is an asshole.
sinfulbliss wrote:In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted.
Which one is it? It can't be both, you can't assume that you usually have a valid reason to stop sec from arresting someone and also assume that every sec player isn't awful. You do know shit like this is why most people can't stand playing sec. It's why I quit doing it, I got sick of being constantly shit on by everyone because they automatically assume I'm going to be a turd due to their interactions with other players.
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PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Fikou » #675297

BeeSting12 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:44 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:54 am In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted. Admins more than anyone should be well aware of what sort of players LRP sec attracts. For those uninitiated I can share a few anecdotes. Yesterday on Sybil I was cuffed and thrown into a pit of lava for nonlethally evading an invalid arrest.
Not to derail the thread but this is complete bullshit. You broke into the armory and got thrown in the lava for it. Otherwise, I would've gulagged you because you quite literally stole half my gear just because I was trying to stop you from kidnapping someone.

I used to have much more of a tase first ask questions later playstyle. I've moved away from that because I care less about winning. Usually if I'm arresting someone or searching someone I'll ask nicely first. However, when I actually want to arrest someone I see nothing wrong with silently tasing, cuffing, and taking to the brig before I tell them why. As long as they find out at some point it doesn't matter. I'm okay with tiders fucking around as long as security is allowed to make them find out. In the above example, sinfulbliss got to find out and the admin had zero problem with it.

I see a lot of people who make it their playstyle to roll assistant and do everything in their power to minor IC crime their way onto sec's wanted list so they can nonlethally fuck with officers the whole round. Until that playstyle isn't common, I'm going to keep wordlessly stunning people.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #675322

Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:40 am This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, the only reason sec officers do the wordless thing is because they know if they try to do it right some shithead is going to come running out of maints to break things up.
I'm not really following you here. How does talking increase the likelihood someone comes and breaks it up?
Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:40 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:17 pm I also am not assuming everyone playing sec is an asshole.
sinfulbliss wrote:In the majority of cases sec deserves to have their arrests interrupted.
Which one is it? It can't be both, you can't assume that you usually have a valid reason to stop sec from arresting someone and also assume that every sec player isn't awful.
It's both - that's why the usually instead of always. Sometimes you don't have a valid reason, i.e. the officer's arresting a ling or some other valid arrest. Then interrupting it is probably being a dick.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #675324

sinfulbliss wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:44 am
Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:40 am This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, the only reason sec officers do the wordless thing is because they know if they try to do it right some shithead is going to come running out of maints to break things up.
I'm not really following you here. How does talking increase the likelihood someone comes and breaks it up?
It increases the length of time for the arrest and until the arrestee is securely in the brig, thus giving increased odds that passing greytiders or their metafriend who was across the map will interfere.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #675327

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:54 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:44 am
Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:40 am This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, the only reason sec officers do the wordless thing is because they know if they try to do it right some shithead is going to come running out of maints to break things up.
I'm not really following you here. How does talking increase the likelihood someone comes and breaks it up?
It increases the length of time for the arrest and until the arrestee is securely in the brig, thus giving increased odds that passing greytiders or their metafriend who was across the map will interfere.
What he said, the entire reason sec officer even do the whole "silent arrest" thing is out of fear of some fuckass interrupting them.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #675333

Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:40 am
In a futile attempt to stay on topic, I think holding sec to something like reading rights is WAY too HRP for our server, but I'm not going to stop bwoinking people for needlessly interfering in every arrest as much as I'm also not going to stop bwoinking sec for wordlessly arresting people.
I can understand where you're coming from, and some of that might come from the title of this thread, I just wanted a minor frame of reference. I firmly believe that Security Officers have a fair bit of metaprotection and that should give them a reason to take part in some behaviors that are not only common courtesy but also prevent what is sometimes blatant kill baiting.

Officers silently batoning, firelocking, and tabling, sometimes not even for an arrest breeds shitty behaviors where the receiver can't retaliate lest they be killed.

Requiring sec to at least say "You're being arrested for stealing the teleporter.", "You have a deadly weapon.", "You tabled an officer.", etc, is not a big ask. It helps take the hate off sec, I've anecdotally noticed less retaliation when an officer talks.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #675338

Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:16 am What he said, the entire reason sec officer even do the whole "silent arrest" thing is out of fear of some fuckass interrupting them.
Not really no, the reason sec does this is to prevent the chance of the arrestee running away or getting the jump on them. Saying "why'd you break into the bridge" before the arrest takes like half a second, and again, no one's gonna interrupt an officer while he's just speaking to someone. People interrupt the arrest itself, the dragging them cuffed to brig. That lasts the same duration regardless of whether they talk before the arrest or not.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #675340

Chadley wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:48 am
Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:40 am
In a futile attempt to stay on topic, I think holding sec to something like reading rights is WAY too HRP for our server, but I'm not going to stop bwoinking people for needlessly interfering in every arrest as much as I'm also not going to stop bwoinking sec for wordlessly arresting people.
I can understand where you're coming from, and some of that might come from the title of this thread, I just wanted a minor frame of reference. I firmly believe that Security Officers have a fair bit of metaprotection and that should give them a reason to take part in some behaviors that are not only common courtesy but also prevent what is sometimes blatant kill baiting.

Officers silently batoning, firelocking, and tabling, sometimes not even for an arrest breeds shitty behaviors where the receiver can't retaliate lest they be killed.

Requiring sec to at least say "You're being arrested for stealing the teleporter.", "You have a deadly weapon.", "You tabled an officer.", etc, is not a big ask. It helps take the hate off sec, I've anecdotally noticed less retaliation when an officer talks.
To put it to you bluntly, the reason silent arrests are so prevalent is because Security as a whole has come to the conclusion that no other factor in their gameplay loop is as important as minimizing the window of opportunity for 3rd party interference.

Silent arrests are less roleplay oriented, meaning less fun for security, they are less likely to succeed because the crewman you're trying to arrest is more likely to retaliate and more likely to use more extreme methods, like potentially lethal weaponry to do so, in addition to basically eliminating the chance of peaceful compliance, and it antagonizes the crew because the person you batoned and cuffed is probably screaming "S-s-shits-sec arres-t-ting me f-for no r-reason!!!!1!", but literally none of these factors are as important as minimizing the window of opportunity for 3rd party interference to complete security's basic gameplay loop.

3rd party interference has warped the entirety of security's playstyle and thrown any and all other factors out of the window, because it is so disruptive to basic security gameplay that it has shaped the entire security metagame.

If policy is changed like you request without addressing my concerns regarding 3rd party interference, what you are asking for is a nerf to security, plain and simple, because the behavior you are targeting right now is a metagame-focused behavior, not a roleplay-focused behavior.

To give an analogy, what you're asking for is the equivalent for shaft miners of saying "I think miners should be forced to mine with pickaxes because it's more RP that way, and they should only use their PKAs for fighting mobs", regardless of if it makes sense from a gameplay perspective.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #675341

sinfulbliss wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:08 am
Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:16 am What he said, the entire reason sec officer even do the whole "silent arrest" thing is out of fear of some fuckass interrupting them.
Not really no, the reason sec does this is to prevent the chance of the arrestee running away or getting the jump on them. Saying "why'd you break into the bridge" before the arrest takes like half a second, and again, no one's gonna interrupt an officer while he's just speaking to someone. People interrupt the arrest itself, the dragging them cuffed to brig. That lasts the same duration regardless of whether they talk before the arrest or not.
Wrong. If greytide sees security about to arrest another greytide, they will loiter in the area, ready to interfere, and it gives them an opportunity to stall by talking while they tell their buddy they're in a VC to get to their area so they can be ready to interfere.

Literally the only factor that matters as security is minimizing the window of opportunity for interference.

Fuck talking, fuck roleplay, fuck SOP, fuck fun, none of it matters because the greytide WILL interfere in your gameplay, so just baton, cuff, and drag to brig asap, and fuck everything else. Any other style of play will just get you fucked by Jimmy Greytide.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #675444

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:16 am To give an analogy, what you're asking for is the equivalent for shaft miners of saying "I think miners should be forced to mine with pickaxes because it's more RP that way, and they should only use their PKAs for fighting mobs", regardless of if it makes sense from a gameplay perspective.
This analogy doesn't make sense. Miners using a PKA doesn't result in players getting round removed or visiting brig or medical. There's a very circular issue here of sec stopping tiders, tiders retaliating, so sec stepping up their game, causing tiders to do the same. This arms race doesn't end with us throwing up our arms and saying "nothing can be done."
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:16 am Silent arrests are less roleplay oriented, meaning less fun for security, they are less likely to succeed because the crewman you're trying to arrest is more likely to retaliate and more likely to use more extreme methods, like potentially lethal weaponry to do so, in addition to basically eliminating the chance of peaceful compliance, and it antagonizes the crew because the person you batoned and cuffed is probably screaming "S-s-shits-sec arres-t-ting me f-for no r-reason!!!!1!", but literally none of these factors are as important as minimizing the window of opportunity for 3rd party interference to complete security's basic gameplay loop.
You're describing a problem, I'm describing a possible solution. Vekter and Striders have both expressed that sec making a valid arrest and then having it ruined by "Shits-The-Bed" for no reason will cause that person to be bwoink'd. Put the accountability on sec. You don't fix the tider problem with another wrong.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:19 am Wrong. If greytide sees security about to arrest another greytide, they will loiter in the area, ready to interfere, and it gives them an opportunity to stall by talking while they tell their buddy they're in a VC to get to their area so they can be ready to interfere.
This extreme you're describing is just tiders breaking the rules. I don't know why you're conflating this to needing to fight fire with fire. You have ahelp for a reason.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #675470

Chadley wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:25 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:16 am To give an analogy, what you're asking for is the equivalent for shaft miners of saying "I think miners should be forced to mine with pickaxes because it's more RP that way, and they should only use their PKAs for fighting mobs", regardless of if it makes sense from a gameplay perspective.
This analogy doesn't make sense. Miners using a PKA doesn't result in players getting round removed or visiting brig or medical. There's a very circular issue here of sec stopping tiders, tiders retaliating, so sec stepping up their game, causing tiders to do the same. This arms race doesn't end with us throwing up our arms and saying "nothing can be done."
Then the Greytide, who caused this problem in the first place by interfering in security's standard gameplay loop, can be the one's targeted by changes, not security.
Chadley wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:25 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:19 am Wrong. If greytide sees security about to arrest another greytide, they will loiter in the area, ready to interfere, and it gives them an opportunity to stall by talking while they tell their buddy they're in a VC to get to their area so they can be ready to interfere.
This extreme you're describing is just tiders breaking the rules. I don't know why you're conflating this to needing to fight fire with fire. You have ahelp for a reason.
You have ahelp for a reason too. If you're really being silently wrongfully arrested or executed often enough to warrant this thread, why aren't you using it?

Is it because you know 99.9% of the time the arrests are valid, it's just that sometimes people forget they broke into tech storage earlier, or didn't think anyone saw them, or aren't skilled enough in the game to know about forensics, or a billion other reasons, so therefore you want security to have to "prove" the arrest is valid then and there in the halls? Because I literally cannot remember the last time I was ACTUALLY wrongfully arrested. There have been times where it was mistaken identity. There have been times where the issue was overblown, and I don't really think an arrest was reasonable, like being arrested for stealing someone's shoes or hat, but I literally and unironically cannot remember the last time I was ACTUALLY wrongfully arrested for no reason. This is just my subjective experience, mind you, but if effectively zero arrests are completely invalid, WHO CARES IF THEY'RE SILENT? You'll be told whatever the hell you did wrong in the Brig.

Meanwhile, EVERYONE knows greytide interference in arrests happens. It happens every day, and nearly every shift, and everyone in this thread agrees it exists and is an issue.

So WHY are you targeting the non-issue instead of the issue?
Chadley wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:25 pmVekter and Striders have both expressed that sec making a valid arrest and then having it ruined by "Shits-The-Bed" for no reason will cause that person to be bwoink'd.
I'll believe this when I don't see 3rd party greytide interference literally every day.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Calomel » #677923

I disagree on making Sec even slower and more ineffectual. Int he time to type a single sentence, anyone around you has the chance to steal everything you own and probably cuff you: and I don't mean just antags. Sure, it'd be great if Sec would log in the arrest reasons on console, then state reason for arrest to the person before a search/arrest, problem is, that this assumes people will listen, and not see Sec as the enemy of all crewmembers, and free loot bags, and act accordingly. Sorry,. but the changes you sugggest, while I think would be a good adition, have to come with a paralell rule for the recipient to not attack during it. Do tyou think people will be willing to accept it? thinking about it, on HRP this is probably enforceable...
Last edited by Calomel on Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by AwkwardStereo » #677926

Calomel wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:14 am I disagree on making Sex even slower and more ineffectual.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #678688

Calomel wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:14 am I disagree on making Sec even slower and more ineffectual. Int he time to type a single sentence, anyone around you has the chance to steal everything you own and probably cuff you: and I don't mean just antags. Sure, it'd be great if Sec would log in the arrest reasons on console, then state reason for arrest to the person before a search/arrest, problem is, that this assumes people will listen, and not see Sec as the enemy of all crewmembers, and free loot bags, and act accordingly. Sorry,. but the changes you sugggest, while I think would be a good adition, have to come with a paralell rule for the recipient to not attack during it. Do tyou think people will be willing to accept it? thinking about it, on HRP this is probably enforceable...
I can totally understand where you and others are coming from. And please correct me if this whole thread has been a misinterpretation of privileges.

Sec is the party with the tools, the meta protections, and the responsibility. If you're playing sec, you should be expected to lean into the part of your job where you are upholding space law, captain/hos policy, or just keeping the peace. They shouldn't be valid hunters with lasers.
Calomel wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:14 am Int he time to type a single sentence, anyone around you has the chance to steal everything you own and probably cuff you: and I don't mean just antags.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=27945&p=581384&hilit=strip#p581384
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=24905&p=529365&hilit=strip#p529365
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22266&p=487734&hilit=strip#p487734

There may be more but there is already a precedent about tiding sec as a non-antag. It's needless antagonism as a non-antag and there's a case to be made that you can be building to kill baiting as sec retaliates back. (Thank god there are protections for sec against being killed for dealing with tiders)


From the signs here, they point to the fact that there IS a policy about tiding against sec, but there isn't a policy for sec tiding back. Put some of that accountability back on shitsec.

I don't think it's a big ask to type out "You put up a poster" while arresting someone in a hall. Or saying "You're trespassing" as you arrest the tider who just smashed a window. Even something like pointing to the traitor box you found their prints on.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #678726

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:15 pm I literally and unironically cannot remember the last time I was ACTUALLY wrongfully arrested for no reason. This is just my subjective experience, mind you, but if effectively zero arrests are completely invalid, WHO CARES IF THEY'RE SILENT? You'll be told whatever the hell you did wrong in the Brig.

Meanwhile, EVERYONE knows greytide interference in arrests happens. It happens every day, and nearly every shift, and everyone in this thread agrees it exists and is an issue.

So WHY are you targeting the non-issue instead of the issue?
Because this is an issue -- maybe you have gotten lucky since you mainly play lowpop where there's not much sec and the sec that exist are chiller. Just yesterday I had a wrongful arrest: a player told me they were new and then began vomiting blood, so I pulled them with me to botany to help them out. An officer then came by and tried to arrest me for kidnapping and "narcotics distribution" for some reason. I let them take the new player to med since that was sort of what I was going to do anyway.

They then continued to pursue me repeatedly. I did not want to be wrongfully brigged and stripsearched for 15 minutes so I continued to resist nonlethally, until eventually they beat me to death on shuttle once they were out of nonlethal options. I sort of didn't fight back aside from slips and shoves since I probably made myself valid by removing their nonlethal options.

Around a week ago I was attacking a mirror with a cutlass that was looted from a pirate and the warden, behind the closed bathroom door, whips out his batong (I could see it with mesons) before opening the door and instantly wordlessly stunning me to confiscate the cutlass. I knew he was the warden so I let it happen and just retaliated IC later by taking his gloves (we eventually traded), but there is an argument that it would have been entirely justified to defend myself lethally since he could have been an antag.

Anyway the point is that invalid arrests happen all the time, they are by no means rare, although depending on your playstyle they may be less common. FWIW the last anecdote was technically a valid arrest but it was wordless and the admin online thought that made it actionable, particularly since the cutlass was kept for himself (sectiding really) so it's worth mentioning.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by BeeSting12 » #678758

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:40 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:15 pm I literally and unironically cannot remember the last time I was ACTUALLY wrongfully arrested for no reason. This is just my subjective experience, mind you, but if effectively zero arrests are completely invalid, WHO CARES IF THEY'RE SILENT? You'll be told whatever the hell you did wrong in the Brig.

Meanwhile, EVERYONE knows greytide interference in arrests happens. It happens every day, and nearly every shift, and everyone in this thread agrees it exists and is an issue.

So WHY are you targeting the non-issue instead of the issue?
Because this is an issue -- maybe you have gotten lucky since you mainly play lowpop where there's not much sec and the sec that exist are chiller. Just yesterday I had a wrongful arrest: a player told me they were new and then began vomiting blood, so I pulled them with me to botany to help them out. An officer then came by and tried to arrest me for kidnapping and "narcotics distribution" for some reason. I let them take the new player to med since that was sort of what I was going to do anyway.

They then continued to pursue me repeatedly. I did not want to be wrongfully brigged and stripsearched for 15 minutes so I continued to resist nonlethally, until eventually they beat me to death on shuttle once they were out of nonlethal options. I sort of didn't fight back aside from slips and shoves since I probably made myself valid by removing their nonlethal options.

Around a week ago I was attacking a mirror with a cutlass that was looted from a pirate and the warden, behind the closed bathroom door, whips out his batong (I could see it with mesons) before opening the door and instantly wordlessly stunning me to confiscate the cutlass. I knew he was the warden so I let it happen and just retaliated IC later by taking his gloves (we eventually traded), but there is an argument that it would have been entirely justified to defend myself lethally since he could have been an antag.

Anyway the point is that invalid arrests happen all the time, they are by no means rare, although depending on your playstyle they may be less common. FWIW the last anecdote was technically a valid arrest but it was wordless and the admin online thought that made it actionable, particularly since the cutlass was kept for himself (sectiding really) so it's worth mentioning.
Not sure how confiscating a weapon from crew unauthorized to have said weapon is sec tiding but ok lol. The first arrest is invalid but you likely would've had better results by explaining yourself instead of spending the whole shift fucking with sec when they chase you. The second one was hella valid and sounds like it made an interesting story.
Chadley wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:50 pm
Calomel wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:14 am Int he time to type a single sentence, anyone around you has the chance to steal everything you own and probably cuff you: and I don't mean just antags.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=27945&p=581384&hilit=strip#p581384
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=24905&p=529365&hilit=strip#p529365
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22266&p=487734&hilit=strip#p487734

There may be more but there is already a precedent about tiding sec as a non-antag. It's needless antagonism as a non-antag and there's a case to be made that you can be building to kill baiting as sec retaliates back. (Thank god there are protections for sec against being killed for dealing with tiders)


From the signs here, they point to the fact that there IS a policy about tiding against sec, but there isn't a policy for sec tiding back. Put some of that accountability back on shitsec.

I don't think it's a big ask to type out "You put up a poster" while arresting someone in a hall. Or saying "You're trespassing" as you arrest the tider who just smashed a window. Even something like pointing to the traitor box you found their prints on.
Yeah but it's easier to stun and explain in the brig than it is to type out a sentence, get shoved over, lose your gear, and the spend 10 minutes complaining to admins who may or may not punish the guy who did it but almost certainly won't be giving you your gear back. When I do get tided I usually chase them ICly unless they take it to murderous extents. More fun that way. I feel like you're trying to bring an MRP policy to LRP. It's nice for security to give reasons for arrests/ask to arrest in the hallway, but it should in no way be required.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Archie700 » #678768

BeeSting12 wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:54 am Yeah but it's easier to stun and explain in the brig than it is to type out a sentence, get shoved over, lose your gear, and the spend 10 minutes complaining to admins who may or may not punish the guy who did it but almost certainly won't be giving you your gear back. When I do get tided I usually chase them ICly unless they take it to murderous extents. More fun that way. I feel like you're trying to bring an MRP policy to LRP. It's nice for security to give reasons for arrests/ask to arrest in the hallway, but it should in no way be required.
Yeah, it'll be much more logical to explain what they are arrested for in the brig than when you're arresting them because:
  1. You can't really talk and drag at the same time in SS13
  2. There's no IRL consequences for interfering with an arrest while the security officer is talking except maybe having your round ruined until the end of the round.
  3. The brig is more secure so there's less chance of some assistant interfering and breaking out the person without being arrested.
The silent arrest meta is a combination of the result of greytiding interfering and no real consequences after the round. The only real option is to make a ruling where security must at least explain the reason for arrest for minor crimes before putting the person in jail (so they should explain in brig and give the guy a chance to make a counterargument).
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by sinfulbliss » #678811

BeeSting12 wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:54 am Not sure how confiscating a weapon from crew unauthorized to have said weapon is sec tiding but ok lol. The first arrest is invalid but you likely would've had better results by explaining yourself instead of spending the whole shift fucking with sec when they chase you. The second one was hella valid and sounds like it made an interesting story.
Man why do you keep forcing me to defend my anecdotes and go completely off topic, really irritating. You weren’t even in these rounds.

It’s sec tiding because he didn’t confiscate the weapon to protect the crew or as part of his job, he confiscated it explicitly because he wanted it for himself. The admin agreed and he got whacked for it.

The first arrest I did explain, it didn’t matter, they tried to arrest me anyway. Resisting an invalid arrest is not “fucking with sec” by the way, that’s an insane take.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Calomel » #679021

Chadley wrote: From the signs here, they point to the fact that there IS a policy about tiding against sec, but there isn't a policy for sec tiding back. Put some of that accountability back on shitsec.

I don't think it's a big ask to type out "You put up a poster" while arresting someone in a hall. Or saying "You're trespassing" as you arrest the tider who just smashed a window. Even something like pointing to the traitor box you found their prints on.
Ok, i can see your point, here.We risk going too far into the other side, which is rampant shitsec. Admittedly, I play mostly on terry, and on medical/service roles, and it might be the case that i don't have as many problem with sec as I do with tiders from that fact. i think Sec having a standard of "Sec should inform an arrest target of their charges" however, should be there somewhere. I think we can be flexible and allow Sec to read their rights in brig/cells instead of in the middle of the hallways, on the premise that the staiton is under attack by enemies of nantorasen via the alerts, and people causing trouble can be agents of the enemy; however, every prisoner should have been told at some point, if possible, what their crimes are, and act accordingly, to prevent having sec do thier typical "baton, bring to cell, refuse to elaborate further, leave" which i admit is basically what bad Sec is about. Even so, i argue that this is all a problem because there IS a role supposed ot stop these things from happening, and that is the Lawyer. The lawyer's role is basically to protect teh crew form shitsec, but he has very little power to do so: perhaps the way to solve this whole problem is to empower the Lawyer somehow, and make it so at the very least, he must be informed of arrests and conditions of said arrests, so he may act accordingly. One solution, although it may be excessive, may be to give Lawyer the ability to write to nanotrasen through a console or something, and through this method, he can demote offending officers or put them in probation. not a subtle solution, but at least a way to introduce IC solutions instead of depending on ahelping all the time, and we breathe life into an otherwise useless role by giving him some actual power and authority over Sec.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Lacran » #679043

Silent arrests are done when the Sec officer does not believe you're going to reward any attempts at Rping the arrest.

Silent arrests and how common they are depend entirely on how the non-sec playerbase operates.

If you want sec players to roleplay prior to an arrest you need to have players that are gonna let security detain them, explain the reasons, and then allow the arrest to take place. How often does this actually happen in LRP?

This opinion is clearly coming from someone who doesn't play Security. Good faith arrests in LRP only occur in situations where the Security player believes this will lead to a peaceful arrest, which on LRP it never does.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Zybwivcz » #681305

Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If
Tell me you don't play highpop LRP SEC without telling me you don't play highpop LRP SEC.


"SEC has to announce to the tider why he's being arrested before arresting him" is just a "SEC can't arrest tiders 90% of the time" policy but with extra steps.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #681343

Zybwivcz wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:51 am
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If
Tell me you don't play highpop LRP SEC without telling me you don't play highpop LRP SEC.


"SEC has to announce to the tider why he's being arrested before arresting him" is just a "SEC can't arrest tiders 90% of the time" policy but with extra steps.
You should be adminhelping people interrupting valid arrests.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #681352

Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:54 pm
Zybwivcz wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:51 am
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If
Tell me you don't play highpop LRP SEC without telling me you don't play highpop LRP SEC.


"SEC has to announce to the tider why he's being arrested before arresting him" is just a "SEC can't arrest tiders 90% of the time" policy but with extra steps.
You should be adminhelping people interrupting valid arrests.
Welp, he finally said it in absolutely clear and unequivocal terms.

All right, we can close up the thread now, I'll have long drawn out Noir discussions before every arrest now.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Lacran » #681375

Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:54 pm
You should be adminhelping people interrupting valid arrests.
So when an assistant pushes me over while I'm walking someone with cuffs to the brig, or explaining the charges prior to an arrest what rule am I to tell the admin the assistant has broken?

Cos this has been a widespread thing for years, I can't really imagine not being laughed at and having it labelled an IC issue. Is there a ruling or something I've missed?
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #681382

Lacran wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:02 pm
Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:54 pm
You should be adminhelping people interrupting valid arrests.
So when an assistant pushes me over while I'm walking someone with cuffs to the brig, or explaining the charges prior to an arrest what rule am I to tell the admin the assistant has broken?

Cos this has been a widespread thing for years, I can't really imagine not being laughed at and having it labelled an IC issue. Is there a ruling or something I've missed?
I would classify someone actively interrupting a valid arrest as greytiding. While individual incidents of greytiding aren't punishable, if it is being done enough by the same person, we will act on it.

Rule 1, precedent 4:
Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.
Players are allowed to interfere with ongoing arrests, but they must have a valid reason to do so. "Security is shit" or "they're my friend OOC" isn't a valid reason.

That being said, you should not be breaking the rules just because you're worried other people might. An arrest should never be "Silently stun, cuff, drag to a cell, throw in, leave". If someone is actively dangerous or a flight risk, I can understand arresting them and bringing them in without talking, but you shouldn't be leaving them in a cell without them knowing why. I am not insinuating that every arrest needs to be some long, drawn out interaction between two people, but you can be bothered to tell someone you're arresting them before actually doing it.

You're expected to use your best judgement (and specific situations will be handled based on what exactly transpired) but you should not be wordlessly arresting people in most situations.
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