/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:19 am**

Should we remove post revs?

Requested by KIETH for a paper trail for them to vote on removing post-revs.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:20 am**

I would support removing post-revs. Cult victory ends the round. Nuke ops victory ends the round. A glorious rev victory should also end with a bang, instead of a fizzle that is post-revs.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:51 am**

as long revs isnt its own game mode (or the only antag that round) i would be against it
wouldnt be fair with the other antags that round

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:38 am**

I'm for post-revs ending the round if more than X% of the crew are dead, to prevent No-sec one-head rev rounds where the headrev never converted anyone and stuncuffed the CMO while they were going to the bridge for their ID from roundending

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:52 am**

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:42 am**

Post revs win is a bit of a shitshow because of all the factions. If it isn't streamlined or simplified I'd vote yes.

Post revs loss is fine because it's simple and easy. I'd want to keep that.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:44 am**

Certainly. I am of the stance that only revolution victories should end the round and headrevs being killed shouldn't though as it used to be.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:44 am**

This is an impactful situation.

We all collectively agree with it's removal unless something happens to change things, and people are already ready to pull the trigger on it.

This is unless someone brings up some serious points or puts in the effort to change and/or more importantly simply the post revs situation, as Timber described.

This is both a notification of what to expect to be coming and a call to action for those that do want it around.

We are leaving this open for some time before our stance becomes 'offical'.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:34 pm**

Yes, post revs is super confusing for all parties and is mostly just waiting for 13min whilst nothing interesting happens.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 1:54 pm**

Free us from the hell of postrevs

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:34 pm**

I think it'd be kinda lame for the round to just suddenly end (Like it used to before dynamic). Cult at least has a whole summon phase with centcomm warnings and room for a final showdown.

It also makes a funny situation where a converted traitor has incentive to not actually give the rev thing his all yet if he's busy finishing his main objectives and/or reaching final.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:30 pm**

More code related but what if it called the evac shuttle or something and centcom just sent a deathsqaud or something. But yes I do think post revs win should be deleted

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:19 pm**

i like post-revs

It's interesting to see who fights for what position and the extra freedoms they are given. The only problem I have is that I rarely see any Security/Command to be free from in the first place.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:19 pm**

I like postrevs but it clearly needs someone to revisit it and fix it

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:07 pm**

I think it'd be really cool if it summons an ERT when revs win. If the crew had enough of a power creep to take down all of the heads of staff and sec, then it'd be cool to see if they can beat an ERT. Maybe it calls a syndicate shuttle instead if they can survive for x amount of time or kill the ERT.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:18 pm**

no because other antags still exist and have influence over the round. many times I have been a traitor or heretic or changeling and have deliberately avoided getting converted/mindshielded so that I can use the chaos to pursue my own goals. having these antag rolls blown up over a provocateur would suck.

in terms of "why are so many rounds big nothingburgers" postrevs is definitely not near the top of the list.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:36 pm**

I cannot stand the argument of "Oh we have to have post-revs because there might be other antags". SO. FUCKING. WHAT. Being an antag is cheap. Sometimes you might accidentally get walked in on while you're using your uplink. Perhaps a borg sees you using an emag. These things happen, and are part of the game. If you care so much, use your antag abilities to stop the revs from winning. I'm chanelling my university's spiritual founder, Jeremy Bentham: take the action that will benefit the most people the most. And that is ending the round post a revs-victory

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:58 pm**

Kill post revs.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:03 pm**

Kill post revs and kill other antags being active during revs. Revs is meant to help the playerbase blow off steam and should stay a standalone thing

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:42 pm**

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:36 pm I cannot stand the argument of "Oh we have to have post-revs because there might be other antags". SO. FUCKING. WHAT. Being an antag is cheap. Sometimes you might accidentally get walked in on while you're using your uplink. Perhaps a borg sees you using an emag. These things happen, and are part of the game. If you care so much, use your antag abilities to stop the revs from winning. I'm chanelling my university's spiritual founder, Jeremy Bentham: take the action that will benefit the most people the most. And that is ending the round post a revs-victory

Not my point

My point is thats its stupid that revs could end the entire round just because command accidently went into a handtele portal to lavaland
I still remember that round because of how stupid it was.
It ended with a rev win even though command and sec were still alive, and right after that sec killed the headrevs and finished it within 10 minutes or so

Would it have been good to end it with a round end screen on the "Rev Victory" there? Fuck no. Revs did Jackshit

Make Revs its own game mode or cut it entirely because that shit dont fit

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:47 pm**

The best solution for post revs would be to autocall the shuttle or maybe even call a deathsquad to activate the nuke. If revs is a mess, may as well make it a fun mess

or hell, why not give dynamic 500 additional threat and let it dump all of it right then into heavy rule sets. Call it Nanotrasen union busting

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:57 pm**

Make postrevs guaranteed to trigger nations and malf. That way an already tricky administration greyzone becomes the ultimate nightmare.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:19 pm**

Either make rev win end the round immediately or make the round immediately go to hell and force a shuttle call.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:24 pm**

warbluke wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:57 pm Make postrevs guaranteed to trigger nations and malf. That way an already tricky administration greyzone becomes the ultimate nightmare.

Nations isn't real the admin team has gaslit you

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:47 am**

Maybe put it on a timer and make revs only roll as a roundstart antag? So post revs COULD happen, but only if the revolution succeeds/loses before, say, the 30 minute mark.

So firstly, if midround revs couldn't be a thing, there wouldn't be accidental ending of the round by some assistant on lavaland suddenly being a midround rev or goofy things of a similar nature.
Second, other antags wouldn't feel their roll was squandered as, by 30 minutes they can easily tell how the revolution is going and do what they need to do. (and are likely a part of it themselves)
Third, postrevs can still happen, but in a way that doesn't feel like the station is unsalvagable. Much like how postcult can still continue if the cult gets stopped early.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:58 am**

Just a plus one on liking rev ending the round esp if rev victory, it almost always just turns into a dull shuttle call if its a reasonable revolution.

Did have the idea that it could just be a "game mode" rather than a part of dynamic, so other antags dont get affected, round type is either dynamic (90-95%) or revolution (the rest) and can just end once its played out without anyone caring about their tot roles. Also be kinda nice to keep revolutions to vanilla equipment rather than mixing in antag gear.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:20 am**

I said this in the coding feedback forum and I'll say it here too - if you're going to remove post-revs, do it PROPERLY. Do NOT just return to how it used to be, and the round just "ends" once the revolution wins or loses, like pre-dynamic. You have to come up with a proper ending, or that's even more lame than current post-rev.

An auto-death-squad sent by centcomm (without requiring admin intervention!) who has the objective of nuking the station to prevent the spread of unionization would be a good solution, imo.

Additionally, it shouldn't just end on rev loss, either. Think about those shifts where the revolution ending centcomm message appears and everyone goes "Wait, there was a revolution?". Happens all the time on high pop. That would be awful as well to have it "just end" under those circumstances.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:32 am**

Kill post-revs. Nobody is in command any more, nobody is functioning as security any more, most of the crew have long since abandoned and forgotten about their normal jobs. It's pretty much guaranteed at that point that nothing of any great value is going to happen for the rest of the round. Either send the round out with a bang, or take it behind the barn like a lame horse.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:38 am I'm for post-revs ending the round if more than X% of the crew are dead, to prevent No-sec one-head rev rounds where the headrev never converted anyone and stuncuffed the CMO while they were going to the bridge for their ID from roundending

Slightly outside the main point but this is always going to be lame no matter what kind of post-rev we settle on, the conditions for rev to be rolled should include having enough heads and sec to make it at least halfway fair.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:06 pm**

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:20 am I said this in the coding feedback forum and I'll say it here too - if you're going to remove post-revs, do it PROPERLY. Do NOT just return to how it used to be, and the round just "ends" once the revolution wins or loses, like pre-dynamic. You have to come up with a proper ending, or that's even more lame than current post-rev.

An auto-death-squad sent by centcomm (without requiring admin intervention!) who has the objective of nuking the station to prevent the spread of unionization would be a good solution, imo.

Additionally, it shouldn't just end on rev loss, either. Think about those shifts where the revolution ending centcomm message appears and everyone goes "Wait, there was a revolution?". Happens all the time on high pop. That would be awful as well to have it "just end" under those circumstances.

Edit: I learned to read

I guess for me the biggest counterpoint to anything other than ending the round is what else that time could be used for, which was kinda where this started ; the whole wait for people to call plus 15 minutes spent on a shuttle call + docking + escape time could be spent on another round that has some potential to it. Every moment spent on the (average) post rev station is just kinda time wasted waiting for the inevitable.

Same's kinda true with death squads and I wonder how "fun" that will be for anyone other than the death squad after the 20th revolution. I imagine it either turns into the death squad getting bombed (what now?) or everyone just gives up and waits to die (like might as well just go AFK for 10 minutes?).

Also of note from my observations of lone ops, there's a 50/50 chance people will actually rush nuking the station versus using their spawn as a murderbone opportunity, so it doesn't guarantee a fast round end anyway, perhaps arguably being an overpowered death squad member might incentivise that player to take the very indirect route to nuking the station, via every department along the way. Which is probably "fun" for them (not sure why people winning one sided fights is "fun" but its basically what murderboners are), and not fun or engaging for anyone else, but there's no guarantee of an expedited end unless we also force arm the nuke (in which case the death squad is really just dead people having EORG fun at everyone elses expense?)

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:17 pm**

iain0 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:06 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:20 am I said this in the coding feedback forum and I'll say it here too - if you're going to remove post-revs, do it PROPERLY. Do NOT just return to how it used to be, and the round just "ends" once the revolution wins or loses, like pre-dynamic. You have to come up with a proper ending, or that's even more lame than current post-rev.

An auto-death-squad sent by centcomm (without requiring admin intervention!) who has the objective of nuking the station to prevent the spread of unionization would be a good solution, imo.

Additionally, it shouldn't just end on rev loss, either. Think about those shifts where the revolution ending centcomm message appears and everyone goes "Wait, there was a revolution?". Happens all the time on high pop. That would be awful as well to have it "just end" under those circumstances.
While there's certainly the counter point of rounds that end too quickly, I don't feel like bothering with things like death squads (which dont end the round either so how does the round end) or forced shuttle calls are anything more than a waste of time. As a standard, shuttle call is 10 min, plus 3 min boarding, 2 min escape, and a min or two round end. Sure, you could extend the round for 15 minutes after a revolution win just because "IC closure" or whatever but whats anyone doing in that 15 minutes knowing the round is going to end anyway? Same with death squad, when does it end, is anyone going to care after the 20th time a unstoppable kill squad rolls on to the station and is this really any different to just entering EORG and ending the round?

While it "would be nice" to play the story out to a standard round completion, I feel the time invested there would be a waste of time when we could save that 15 minutes to play half a nukies round instead. Opportunity cost.

Did you actually read my post? I said "a death squad who has the goal of nuking the station." Like, they get the nuke codes, and their goal is to recover disky and set off the self destruct nuke.

How I would do it is, the instant the revolution wins, the shuttle is called, and recall is disabled. At the same time, ghosts are given deathsquad offers. The revolutionaries have to protect disky and escape on the pods/shuttle, while deathsquad tries to kill them before they jump in to hyperspace. If deathsquad sets off the nuke before the ship lands at centcomm, NT wins. If the revolutionaries make it to centcomm, the revolution wins.

Is that sufficiently "epic" for you?

NT brand nukies.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:15 pm**

I think there's definitely a case to be made to remove it, yes.

I also agree with Typhnox - there really needs to be an actual end to the round even if it's just "NT blows up the station" or something. I'm not sure I like the "Deathsquad nukes the station" thing because it's not all that interesting. It's just "Five people who were dead come back and try to kill the rest of the crew (and probably succeed because deathsquads are tuned REALLY HIGH)" and that's going to get boring really fast.

You also have to plan for the possibility that those deathsquad members somehow fail, whether by fluking really hard or the crew somehow managing to kill them.

I don't think post-rev loss should end the round. I think if the revolution loses, everyone who was revved should just go back to normal. That just makes sense and resolves the issue with the round ending so soon after fail revs.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:49 pm**

If you REALLY insist the round should just end if the revolution wins, at least make it so there's like, a centcomm chain message of announcements against the unionization efforts, and they arm the vault nuke remotely and it goes delta and the nuke blows up after 90 seconds. Like if you're not going to do a fun fighting event like deathsquad, at least give it a proper story ending like that instead of just "Revs win, here's your end of round screen".

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:58 pm**

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:49 pm If you REALLY insist the round should just end if the revolution wins, at least make it so there's like, a centcomm chain message of announcements against the unionization efforts, and they arm the vault nuke remotely and it goes delta and the nuke blows up after 90 seconds. Like if you're not going to do a fun fighting event like deathsquad, at least give it a proper story ending like that instead of just "Revs win, here's your end of round screen".

I absolutely agree. It doesn't make any sense in-universe that Centcom would just ignore that a station was taken over by rogue crew members.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:12 pm**

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:49 pm If you REALLY insist the round should just end if the revolution wins, at least make it so there's like, a centcomm chain message of announcements against the unionization efforts, and they arm the vault nuke remotely and it goes delta and the nuke blows up after 90 seconds. Like if you're not going to do a fun fighting event like deathsquad, at least give it a proper story ending like that instead of just "Revs win, here's your end of round screen".

Sure, works for me, gives people a chance to close their interactions out before they all melt, bit like how nar'sie wins and cascade delams play out in the closing minutes, and better than just random scorecard stealing input focus.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:18 pm**

iain0 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:12 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:49 pm If you REALLY insist the round should just end if the revolution wins, at least make it so there's like, a centcomm chain message of announcements against the unionization efforts, and they arm the vault nuke remotely and it goes delta and the nuke blows up after 90 seconds. Like if you're not going to do a fun fighting event like deathsquad, at least give it a proper story ending like that instead of just "Revs win, here's your end of round screen".
Sure, works for me, gives people a chance to close their interactions out before they all melt, bit like how nar'sie wins and cascade delams play out in the closing minutes, and better than just random scorecard stealing input focus.

I would be fine with this, assuming it has a special interaction with the steal nuke core objective.

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:37 am**

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:18 pm
iain0 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:12 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:49 pm If you REALLY insist the round should just end if the revolution wins, at least make it so there's like, a centcomm chain message of announcements against the unionization efforts, and they arm the vault nuke remotely and it goes delta and the nuke blows up after 90 seconds. Like if you're not going to do a fun fighting event like deathsquad, at least give it a proper story ending like that instead of just "Revs win, here's your end of round screen".
Sure, works for me, gives people a chance to close their interactions out before they all melt, bit like how nar'sie wins and cascade delams play out in the closing minutes, and better than just random scorecard stealing input focus.
I would be fine with this, assuming it has a special interaction with the steal nuke core objective.

There is still nothing funnier than a solo op trying to blow up the station and the core not being there.

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:45 am**

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:18 pm
iain0 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:12 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:49 pm If you REALLY insist the round should just end if the revolution wins, at least make it so there's like, a centcomm chain message of announcements against the unionization efforts, and they arm the vault nuke remotely and it goes delta and the nuke blows up after 90 seconds. Like if you're not going to do a fun fighting event like deathsquad, at least give it a proper story ending like that instead of just "Revs win, here's your end of round screen".
Sure, works for me, gives people a chance to close their interactions out before they all melt, bit like how nar'sie wins and cascade delams play out in the closing minutes, and better than just random scorecard stealing input focus.
I would be fine with this, assuming it has a special interaction with the steal nuke core objective.

Maybe centcomm can say "fuck it" in that case and send a shit ton of missiles instead, before the end of round screen?

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:20 am**

BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:03 pm Kill post revs and kill other antags being active during revs. Revs is meant to help the playerbase blow off steam and should stay a standalone thing

This is still the best take. Make revs roundstart-only, and if the revs lose, start throwing midrounds at the crew.

Losing gimmick progress to what is essentially sudden forced reboot would feel awful and I'd expect just encourage mindless murderboning at the first hint of revs (to "at least get some use from their antag role").

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:37 am**

i believe there are enough meaningful interactions in the game (lathe taxes being waived as one example) and that there are a number of more interactions that could be implemented in a state where revolutionaries win the game without ending the round to where i'm comfortable keeping it.

i haven't really seen any arguments surrounding the desire to remove post-revs victory that doesn't essentially boil down to "i died restart". what is missing from the game loop? the survivors will steal ID cards and cool gamer gear from the people they continued and can proceed to do their projects as they wish, or not. just because you don't see what you want to see doesn't mean it would have happened if revs were even a thing in the first place, players can choose how they play the game (notwithstanding administrative action). every time i've won and been in that post-revs victory period has been a relatively good time now that you've overthrown your dictators and all the swag gamer gear in the world is yours. if you died and became unrevivable, that sucks but there's always twitter tweets to scroll or bloons to pop or whatever (or CTF, basketball, mafia, etc.).

is it because it's administratively weird? i don't see how sending an ultra deathsquad to the station would ultimately fix it given that any level of hijinks can happen in that interim. the only solution to that issue would be the 0-second shift end agnostic of any context and wholesome admin content.

every argument in this thread doesn't really appeal to me in the slightest, and i would appreciate if someone could read what i have just written and phrase something a different way because i just don't get it. if there's two heads of staff and they both get killed 10 minutes into the shift (yes they managed to kill both of them three minutes after getting the datum, wowee), the shift isn't kaput at that point! people who were productive can still remain productive and do whatever they wanted to do, with the exception of less formal forces around the shift.

i like chaos. i dont' think it's a good thing to rid ourselves of it

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:48 am**

Here's the word of god on the matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Revs require 3 heads of staff to start, I think a lot of the occasions that I've seen that are the emotional backing behind why people want post revs changed is that it is an antagonist based entirely around killing sec and the heads. It really kneecaps the type of people who enjoy the upper management roles, and then when revs happen, there are a few pipelines it goes down.

- Heads of staff die early due to sec not having time to stop them, or there not being enough sec. Now they've got to wait maybe 50 minutes after being bomb rushed by the tide.

- Heads die late, there are varying levels of damage to the station, and it's been a hard-won fight. But it's not very cathartic for people that they killed sec and the heads for that sweet sweet greentext and... nothing happens. Cult would've ended the round, nukies would've ended the round, malf would've ended the round, etc.

- Revheads die early, this seems to be the only situation where there isn't some station-wide seething, chalk one up to fluky Marxists.

- Revheads die late, station is probably fucked from the fights to kill the heads, shuttle will probably be called.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 pm**

Deathsquad post rev or total removal yeah

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:01 pm**

The admin issue is primarily post revs factions. There are more than 0 of them and it's not clear to players who belongs to which faction.

Revs itself is a simple mode. Either you're a rev and you kill heads, or you're not and you don't. If you become a rev, go kill heads.

Then it ends and we have exiled heads, sec, non revs, former revs and technically former revheads. All with no way to immediately tell who is who.

Thus could be fun, but in practice tends to be a pain in the ass to play and a pain in the ass to administrate.

Simplifying this would be an alternative path to removal.

I.e. remove all factions. Redheads become new heads, everyone else is loyal under them and a revolutionary shuttle now overrides any existing one except maybe BYOS, and it auto hijacks itself to somewhere not centcom.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:28 pm**

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:01 pm The admin issue is primarily post revs factions. There are more than 0 of them and it's not clear to players who belongs to which faction.

Revs itself is a simple mode. Either you're a rev and you kill heads, or you're not and you don't. If you become a rev, go kill heads.

Then it ends and we have exiled heads, sec, non revs, former revs and technically former revheads. All with no way to immediately tell who is who.

Thus could be fun, but in practice tends to be a pain in the ass to play and a pain in the ass to administrate.

Simplifying this would be an alternative path to removal.

I.e. remove all factions. Redheads become new heads, everyone else is loyal under them and a revolutionary shuttle now overrides any existing one except maybe BYOS, and it auto hijacks itself to somewhere not centcom.

I like where your head is at, but I'm not sure this would work too well. I think if you're asking revs who likely kicked the shit out of the captain, HoP, etc to give their shiny new loot to someone else, you'll find you still have an administrative nightmare as people won't wanna give up telebats, guns, or whatever job specific loot they lifted off the poor soul doing Xeno alone on Meta.

In writing this though, it could be cool if the revhead who is selected for renaming the station can pick which faction they're doing it for and get new heads of staff from there. I believe someone was working on Syndicate faction specific uniforms n whatnot it *could* be cool.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:50 pm**

To be clear, I'm with San on this one in that I don't think post-rev should be removed at all. I agree that it really boils down to "I ded, pls restart so I can roll antag again." I just also happen to think that if you guys are just going to ignore that opinion and do it anyway because you want to encourage more antag rolling for some reason, at least do it properly and don't just put up the end of round screen when the last head dies.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:30 pm**

Since we are all just spitballing our ideas, heres mine, though I'd like to mention this thread is in policy discussion, most of these ideas, including mine, require code changes.

In the event of a corporate victory, nothing changes, the rounds continue on as normal.
In the event of a revolutionary victory, the shuttle gets called with a syndicate announcement along the lines of:
"Freshly liberated crew of [station]! We've been informed of your victory against Nanotrasen. As they don't look kindly on turncoats we are sending a stolen shuttle to ferry you out to a safe place. We hope to see you soon."
Now, this shuttle CAN be recalled, so if the station is still habitable and the new rulers wish to remain, they can.
This shuttle, even if recalled and called at a later date will be pre-hijacked and fly to the syndicate base. The so called "Enemies of the revolution"-antags will be given an escape objective along the lines of "Survive and reach Nanotrasen forces". They will also be given the antag-ability to hijack the shuttle console, correcting it's destination to fly back to CentCom. Normal antags will also keep their ability to redirect the shuttle, should they for some reason want to (corporate climber traitors or some madman).

I consider this solution good because it finishes out the round in a believable IC way and leaves the option to continue the round.
On the topic of antag-rolling, if a majority of the crew wish to restart because they consider the story of the round played out, let them. If you don't like the playerbases attitude on the subject or their habits, then change these via rules that promote a different Server environment.

Anyway, like I said, this idea along with most others require more than config changes and will need to be approved by maintainers.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:22 pm**

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:37 am i believe there are enough meaningful interactions in the game (lathe taxes being waived as one example) and that there are a number of more interactions that could be implemented in a state where revolutionaries win the game without ending the round to where i'm comfortable keeping it.

i haven't really seen any arguments surrounding the desire to remove post-revs victory that doesn't essentially boil down to "i died restart". what is missing from the game loop? the survivors will steal ID cards and cool gamer gear from the people they continued and can proceed to do their projects as they wish, or not. just because you don't see what you want to see doesn't mean it would have happened if revs were even a thing in the first place, players can choose how they play the game (notwithstanding administrative action). every time i've won and been in that post-revs victory period has been a relatively good time now that you've overthrown your dictators and all the swag gamer gear in the world is yours. if you died and became unrevivable, that sucks but there's always twitter tweets to scroll or bloons to pop or whatever (or CTF, basketball, mafia, etc.).

is it because it's administratively weird? i don't see how sending an ultra deathsquad to the station would ultimately fix it given that any level of hijinks can happen in that interim. the only solution to that issue would be the 0-second shift end agnostic of any context and wholesome admin content.

every argument in this thread doesn't really appeal to me in the slightest, and i would appreciate if someone could read what i have just written and phrase something a different way because i just don't get it. if there's two heads of staff and they both get killed 10 minutes into the shift (yes they managed to kill both of them three minutes after getting the datum, wowee), the shift isn't kaput at that point! people who were productive can still remain productive and do whatever they wanted to do, with the exception of less formal forces around the shift.

i like chaos. i dont' think it's a good thing to rid ourselves of it

1. All this talk about interactions and being able to do projects is dependent on whether the revs want to remain in the station, not call the shuttle, if the shuttle was not here already.

2. Gamer gear that would only be of use to people who actually wanted to use it on others, aka before the revs killed all the heads. Or other antags. See point 1 for how long that might last.

3. Not every revolution is going to end with the heads being easily killed within 10 minutes. Most revolutions are either far more chaotic with people on both sides being killed, or the revheads being quickly crushed and the shift continuing as normal.

Posted: **Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:26 pm**

I think all the people saying "you just want it to end to antag roll" are being rather disingenuous.

In most cases on a rev round, as soon as the revs win, the shuttle's called anyway. Because the battle caused so much destruction and devastation that the station's just uninhabitable. The reason behind having the round end after a Rev Victory is because in MOST cases, it's going to anyway. And "Haha we killed a bunch of people to rebel against Nanotrasen. Time to call the shuttle and go back to them

" is just weird, narratively.

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:02 pm**

san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:37 am
i haven't really seen any arguments surrounding the desire to remove post-revs victory that doesn't essentially boil down to "i died restart". what is missing from the game loop? the survivors will steal ID cards and cool gamer gear from the people they continued and can proceed to do their projects as they wish, or not. just because you don't see what you want to see doesn't mean it would have happened if revs were even a thing in the first place, players can choose how they play the game (notwithstanding administrative action). every time i've won and been in that post-revs victory period has been a relatively good time now that you've overthrown your dictators and all the swag gamer gear in the world is yours. if you died and became unrevivable, that sucks but there's always twitter tweets to scroll or bloons to pop or whatever (or CTF, basketball, mafia, etc.).

is it because it's administratively weird? i don't see how sending an ultra deathsquad to the station would ultimately fix it given that any level of hijinks can happen in that interim. the only solution to that issue would be the 0-second shift end agnostic of any context and wholesome admin content.

every argument in this thread doesn't really appeal to me in the slightest, and i would appreciate if someone could read what i have just written and phrase something a different way because i just don't get it. if there's two heads of staff and they both get killed 10 minutes into the shift (yes they managed to kill both of them three minutes after getting the datum, wowee), the shift isn't kaput at that point! people who were productive can still remain productive and do whatever they wanted to do, with the exception of less formal forces around the shift.

Turning this on its head: Would you support changing the Cult victory to be "Narsie shows up, converts everyone to cultist, then vanishes leaving the shift to continue as normal except that all the sec team are gibbed and everyone has a halo over their head"? All the dead people could just come back as cult constructs as people "get their swag gamer gear", after all.

Likewise, nuclear operatives should actually end with it being revealed when the shuttle hits Centcom that the whole thing was just a drill, please go back to your workstations and the shuttle sends everyone back to escape, right?

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:24 pm**

We appreciate all the discussion that has taken place in this thread, we really do. Plenty of ideas have come up.

That being said we still pretty much in the same spot that we were with this, do not like the direction that post-revs has taken, and encourage people with ideas to act on them.

We are all for the removal of post-revs in its current state unless something changes. This is our stance becoming official.

Timberpoes:
I have no issues with post-revs loss. It's simple, everyone knows where they stand and it works well. Please keep it.

I have issues with post-revs win. Too complex; not intuitive; too many factions; no way to identify which faction a player belongs to ICly; difficult to administrate as a result.

I'd like to see something like a simplified post-revs win. Get rid of factions. All survivors convert to the revolution. Decrease RP dissonance. Syndicate shuttle replacing existing one? Docks at syndie base, auto hijacking? Cargo shuttle no longer works?

Make the actual RP situation make some minor semblance of sense ICly, prioritising the RP setting, removing all the complex factions and letting the shift conclude naturally seems fine to me.

Without a good code solution improving post-revs win, I would remove it while retaining current post-revs lose if such an option was available to me as headmin.

If my quibbles with it were dealt with, I would happily vote in favour of re-introducing post-revs win. It's not an ideologicial opposition, just a practical one.

I would not remove current post-revs win if it also means post-revs loss ending the shift immediately too.

/tg/Station 13

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