/tg/Station 13

Right now, the tgstation discord's rules are somewhat sparse, and mostly go by a smell check rather than hardline rules (except things like doxxing, or other serious and clearly outlined things like the 18+ rule). This is fine for text channels, if someone posts a blatantly pornographic image/gif/video in a text channel, that's against the rules and should be deleted as per the discord's rules:

8: Any NSFW content must be clearly labeled, as well as spoilered or nested in < > to prevent the automatic embed, pornographic content is not allowed

The reason for this rule seems VERY clear and obvious: if someone in a public place or work space is browsing the discord, they shouldn't have things that aren't kosher on their screen without warning (thus: more suggestive--not pornographic--materials are fine if spoilered and clearly labelled as nsfw).

This is weird, though, when looking at the voicechat channels.
You wouldn't really be looking into a vc channel on the bus--assumedly--BUT the lack of clear guidelines around the vc channels (the voice-chat-general channel has "Discuss topics discussed in voice chats here." where other channels would have guidelines for chatting, like tgstation-general's "Do not talk about on-going rounds with connection errors until the server restarts!") leaves it all up to the discord admin's view of what is good or bad to stream.

This is obviously what I'm taking issue with.

Since the voicechat is opt-in to begin with (though you can accidentally join one, or accidentally view a stream, but the loading time on joining a vc/stream SHOULD be great enough that you could close out of them if you had actually accidentally joined), why can't it have greater leeway with what is allowed? Why would something like gartic phone--which can WILDLY swing between wholesome and rule-8-breaking--be perfectly okay? is it the opt-in part? what about that is dissimilar to a discord stream?



Also, please add another vc for off-topic, since I think that solves some of the issue (since it was a drawing stream, and people enjoyed watching it, it wasn't like... streaming a porn video or whatever), as well as giving people somewhere to talk about things that are off-topic instead of being either in a political vc or in the general public vc.

Context: Pengis was drawing funny somewhat nsfw art on stream, everyone in stream was just hanging out and making jokes. Then an admin came and said it wasn't allowed, and another admin timed Pengis out.

The public VC channel is hardly ever used. People have started to use it recently to stream art. I find it very disagreeable for a Discord jannie to descend from their INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower private VCs and join the public one, unprovoked, and just 1984 the stream because the sketches were suggestive or nsfw. Who honestly cares? You have to 1) join the VC, and 2) watch the stream, to even see it, it's not disruptive, it's funny and people watch it.

This seems to be enforcing something for the sake of enforcing when it doesn't benefit anyone. Not a single person in the stream complained, including multiple TG admins who were there.

I don't have any comment on the contents of the VC, because I didn't see the extent of the actual art being drawn. My personal limit for a public VC would be to say no nudity and actual pornographic material tho (alongside the prohibited things from other rules, stuff that would make Discord mad, etc.). You do still see a thumbnail when hovering over the voice chat that, as far as I know, the streamer can't censor.

PengisBungholius wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:00 am Also, please add another vc for off-topic, since I think that solves some of the issue (since it was a drawing stream, and people enjoyed watching it, it wasn't like... streaming a porn video or whatever), as well as giving people somewhere to talk about things that are off-topic instead of being either in a political vc or in the general public vc.

I'm inclined to agree, there are a handful of admin VCs that don't get used that could be culled in favour of adding more public ones.

dragomagol wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:14 am You do still see a thumbnail when hovering over the voice chat that, as far as I know, the streamer can't censor.

I addressed that somewhat I think, but I wasn't told to stop before (when drawing more... provocative... things--not that not being caught meant it was okay) since I was looking at what the thumbnail was when streaming and stopping then restarting the stream if it depicted stuff that wouldn't be good. Not totally impossible to keep it mostly sanitized, but obviously not the best solution. Having a vc that is clearer than "the one public vc" or "the one political vc" would be great, since you're better informed without having to look at the thumbnail of what could be risque artwork/etc.

I've been on those VCs, and on those streams. Pengis' art was never pornographic, it's lowbrow and risque, at best suggestive. I've seen worse shit being posted by admins and retiremins that could just as easily be misconstrued as hornyposting and suggestive.

Just because you can't see a nipple doesn't mean what you're posting isn't questionable.

Except I feel I can't say anything about it since one of those admins is part of the Discord Janitor team.

I'm all in for rules enforcement. It's about protecting the community. But the hypocrisy seriously pisses me off.

An offtopic/clearly tagged nsfw channel where we sit, chat, chill and penghis or other incredibly talented people can draw their stuff (which is the whole point of anyone watching the stream, the fact you are seeing talented people at work) would be ideal, and I like this suggestion.

In general I'm more inclined to agree with conrad simply based off of the fact that we're an 18+ server that really caters to a non-18+ crowd way too much

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:06 am In general I'm more inclined to agree with conrad simply based off of the fact that we're an 18+ server that really caters to a non-18+ crowd way too much

Yeah I didn't want to hinge it wholly on "we're 18+ why can't we act like it in a mature way" but it's definitely a strong point to be made.
Even saying that though, art/more voice channels would solve the issue that rule 8 is (presumably) designed to handle, so that people wouldn't have to look at the stream's thumbnail that would be bad if unspoilered in a text chat (even though it's far more work to see it).

This server is 18+, Suggestive art shouldn't get you banned, If it was full on NSFW artwork (sex, gore, etc) outside of a nsfw channel then yes, Because of discord tos.

dragomagol wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:14 am I'm inclined to agree, there are a handful of admin VCs that don't get used that could be culled in favour of adding more public ones.

not really, other than the headmin one all the admin vcs have valid reasons to exist
i think we dont need a second vc. whats the point if just one will be filled? its not themed in any way, its just a vc.



on the topic of the stream, i think if its artistic and not full on porn it should be fine. we're an 18+ server, you can just not look in the vc/stream. if the admins can watch anime with fanservice whats wrong with a funny drawing

Fikou wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:35 pm

dragomagol wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:14 am I'm inclined to agree, there are a handful of admin VCs that don't get used that could be culled in favour of adding more public ones.

i think we dont need a second vc. whats the point if just one will be filled? its not themed in any way, its just a vc.

the issue, as I see it, is that people are compelled to look at the stream's thumbnail to see what's being streamed since there's only a generic public stream (also, sometimes people want to play a video game with other people, and having two non-political public vcs would be nice).

Armhulen wrote: In general I'm more inclined to agree with conrad simply based off of the fact that we're an 18+ server that really caters to a non-18+ crowd way too much

conrad wrote: This server is 18+, Suggestive art shouldn't get you banned, If it was full on NSFW artwork (sex, gore, etc) outside of a nsfw channel then yes, Because of discord tos.

Unoki wrote: An offtopic/clearly tagged nsfw channel where we sit, chat, chill and penghis or other incredibly talented people can draw their stuff (which is the whole point of anyone watching the stream, the fact you are seeing talented people at work) would be ideal, and I like this suggestion.

As the DJ that (I think?) started this whole thing by originally checking in on the thumbnail and saying "hold on a moment what's goin on in there" I'm going to agree with all the above posts and say that I do actually think there should be *a* space for artists to be able to create media without worrying that they're going to get slapped for being nsfw - though I'm going to firmly stand against going as far as to allow stuff that could be pornographic, purely because I still intend on being a DJ and I don't want to fucking moderate a porn channel please god

Art is cool, community engagement is cool, and I've loved seeing the fact that the vcs have been getting a shit ton of people participating in gartic and art streams and whatnot
if there was a channel to allow for people to draw silly little things while still keeping it as Not Porn I think it'd be cool n good


in the meantime, stop drawin dicks
(content warning: contains a dick)

I'm okay with like, David of Michaelangelo dicks. Artistic dicks. But I doubt /tg/ is drawing a lot of artistic nudity and is really just about drawin' dicks.

You used to be able to stream full on porn games in the discord as long as it was clearly labelled that it was 18+

tgstation community members are always interested in tits and willies. Who are we to deny them their most primal of urges?

Naloac wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:25 am You used to be able to stream full on porn games in the discord as long as it was clearly labelled that it was 18+

Which actually seems very reasonable. If not this, then a dedicated channel somewhere near polcon/shitposts

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:13 am in the meantime, stop drawin dicks
(content warning: contains a dick)

WHY hold the standard to "NO DRAWING DICKS" if A) you yourself agree that standard should be changed, and B) the rules don't even require this standard, as mentioned previously people streamed much worse like porn games in the past.

I think what very much could be possible is a repurpose of one of our current ones into like a "mature" vc? Like, I saw the stuff you drew and it's nowhere near nsfw. It was very slightly phallic man which is something that we as an 18+ place should hold no real issue with.

Obviously no porn but a slightly phallic object being too much shouldn't be it chief.

as the most important person in the Red Public Channel, I say that we just make the Red Public Channel an NSFW channel by default

because that shit was hilarious and i think we should keep it

The VCs should probably be labelled 18+ anyways, since they're difficult to moderate what goes on in them, but that obviously is a bad look and might cause people to misconstrue the limits of what's good to do in them

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:14 am tgstation community members are always interested in tits and willies. Who are we to deny them their most primal of urges?

Coomers can look at porno somewhere else. SS13 requires two hands to play.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:33 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:14 am tgstation community members are always interested in tits and willies. Who are we to deny them their most primal of urges?

Coomers can look at porno somewhere else. SS13 requires two hands to play.

TG station allows mapping every action to a custom key. You can def play 1 handed, or possibly 1 fingered if you try hard enough

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:42 am

Farquaar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:33 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:14 am tgstation community members are always interested in tits and willies. Who are we to deny them their most primal of urges?

Coomers can look at porno somewhere else. SS13 requires two hands to play.

TG station allows mapping every action to a custom key. You can def play 1 handed, or possibly 1 fingered if you try hard enough

This is true but I don't think talking about playing one handed helps my case that the streams wouldn't be overtly pornographic while being labelled 18+

Ban people who join a round of garlic phone but then don't draw anything or do the prompts.

Just like a day timeout, yeah?

the manuelcord had a channel specifically for all this stuff, why don't we just do that?

what's the worst that could happen?

Nabski wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:43 am Ban people who join a round of garlic phone but then don't draw anything or do the prompts.

Just like a day timeout, yeah?

IT WAS AN ACCIDENT, ON MY END I LEFT BEFORE THE GAME STARTED AND I DIDN'T EVEN READY UP

dragomagol wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:58 am

Nabski wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:43 am Ban people who join a round of garlic phone but then don't draw anything or do the prompts.

Just like a day timeout, yeah?

IT WAS AN ACCIDENT, ON MY END I LEFT BEFORE THE GAME STARTED AND I DIDN'T EVEN READY UP

This one wasn't specifically you but we had a 12 player one go last afternoon. One person joined while driving, created a prompt and left. There were 5 players that were just blank and it was frustrating in the end credits.

NoxVS wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:28 am the manuelcord had a channel specifically for all this stuff, why don't we just do that?

what's the worst that could happen?

We should try to steer the ship as far away from manuelcord as possible.

I think I'm okay with this as long as it's kept to a specific, labeled voice channel for it. Also probably no hardcore stuff.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:49 pm

NoxVS wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:28 am the manuelcord had a channel specifically for all this stuff, why don't we just do that?

what's the worst that could happen?

We should try to steer the ship as far away from manuelcord as possible.

Cope

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:25 pm I think I'm okay with this as long as it's kept to a specific, labeled voice channel for it. Also probably no hardcore stuff.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:49 pm

NoxVS wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:28 am the manuelcord had a channel specifically for all this stuff, why don't we just do that?

what's the worst that could happen?

We should try to steer the ship as far away from manuelcord as possible.

Cope

Seethe

NoxVS wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:28 am the manuelcord had a channel specifically for all this stuff, why don't we just do that?

what's the worst that could happen?

cmon bruh

make a second vc exclusively because people get loud and annoying and also play activities that others don't play
there's absolutely no reason not to have a second voice chat in a server with like 2k people
no opinions on the topic please i don't want to use the polcon vc!!!

actually opinion: absolutely do not label it nsfw because then people will be weird about it.
you can just call it chill/art something and art in a +18 server should not be outright pornographic. if you're prudish bout a nipple or suggestive stuff you simply do not join

After drawing things in vc pretty consistently since making this thread, I agree with wubli saying not to label it 18+ because there are a LOT of people that act weird about stuff like that. People get weird when you're not even making things that are overtly sexual (like giving things breasts is enough to get the scornful eyes of the pompously and performatively high and mighty).

In my opinion, having the only (non polcon) voicechat be near the top of the list of channels is the issue, because (and I don't mean to be mean saying this) people will join to try and get other people to do group things with them like gartic phone (which isn't always inherently bad/annoying, but it can be to have people try to talk about two different things at once).

Polcon's vc is significantly laxer in what can be shown in it, because it's:
a. polcon
b. VERY low on the list of channels

Putting an offtopic/etc. vc in the offtopic section would likely solve most all of the problems, as it would be listed as offtopic/etc. and would be lower on the list of channels.



Also, as a complete sidenote, I'm still for labelling it 18+ if only because I feel INCREDIBLY uncomfortable drawing things at all while there are people who say some WEIRD things (UNPROMPTED!!) that MAY or may not be in breach of a certain age-based rule. Having there be ANOTHER confirmation they're good to see things would just ease my mind. Would definitely make the annoying people who get weird about that sorta stuff more annoying and weird.

Why don't we have a second server wide voice chat? I don't think there's a limit on voice channels, so it's not like we'd have to delete a channel to have an off topic voice channel.

PengisBungholius wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:42 am Also, as a complete sidenote, I'm still for labelling it 18+ if only because I feel INCREDIBLY uncomfortable drawing things at all while there are people who say some WEIRD things (UNPROMPTED!!) that MAY or may not be in breach of a certain age-based rule. Having there be ANOTHER confirmation they're good to see things would just ease my mind. Would definitely make the annoying people who get weird about that sorta stuff more annoying and weird.

The label would entail the other parts of the server aren't 18+ (entire server is 18+)

For clarities sake this one is being discussed with the discord jannies a bit more before it's time to start deciding.

Any other thoughts or info would be much appreciated.

we really should have more player-accessible voice chats besides just the one, even if we're not making one of them a "hey you can draw pee pees in here and nobody has a right to get offended" voice chat.

We are going to be making a new voice-chat channel for art. This channel will be locked to 18+ to allow for a higher level of artistic expression, however, it is not for porn or overly lewd/offensive content. If it is treated as a hub for such it will be deleted.

Behave!