Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

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Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684051

I'd like to put forward a motion to revise the following ruling made by Rave/Drag/Fairy in 2021:
We welcome admins to note lowpop murderbone at their discretion. Repeated notes may result in bans.
My recommendation would be to word it as such (changes in bold):
We welcome admins to note players for indiscriminate murder during low population rounds at their discretion. Indiscriminate murder can be defined as "any killing that is done for no reason other than expanding body count over a certain percentage of the current player count". Repeated notes may result in bans.
The reason for this is simple - I'm sick of people complaining about issues that aren't happening. Players are conflating "murderboning" as "killing me for no reason", not what it was supposed to be, which was "going into a department and murdering everyone for no tangible reason". There's really two different ways to look at this:

1) We hardline codify what is and isn't indiscriminate murder, to the point where we say "If you kill more than (percent) of the current alive crew for no tangible reason, you are breaking the rules".
2) We refuse to hardline codify the specifics of the term, but instead expect players to always have a valid reason for killing someone under a specific, determined player number. Say, 20 people.

I kind of prefer #1 because it puts less work on us in general and gives players a more hard coded line as to what is and isn't acceptable, but I feel like we need to be more specific on this than just saying "If someone kills somebody for no reason on low pop, we can note them". What's low pop? What is and isn't a justifiable reason? Can antags have a little murder on low pop as a treat or is it completely banned?

E: To clarify, the main point of this thread is to request that we both codify exactly what "low population" is and what is and isn't acceptable for antags to do in low population rounds.
Last edited by Vekter on Thu May 04, 2023 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by SuperNovaa41 » #684052

I think the main is issue with either of those is determining where the line is.
Everyone has a different definition of lowpop
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684054

SuperNovaa41 wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 6:37 pm I think the main is issue with either of those is determining where the line is.
Everyone has a different definition of lowpop
That's part of why I made the thread.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by wabash » #684055

Please clarify to players as such:

"We welcome admins to note players for indiscriminate murder during low population (<20 players) rounds at their discretion. Indiscriminate murder can be classified as "any killing that is done for no reason other than expanding body count over a certain percentage of the current player count". Repeated notes may result in bans."
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by sinfulbliss » #684061

I like Wabash’s shorter version, as well as the one in the OP. But I would say <20 is a bit too low. I consider lowpop <35 personally, because it’s at those numbers that the crew usually doesn’t even have a hope of stopping a murderboner. Perhaps <30 is a bit more reasonable.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684064

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 7:45 pm I like Wabash’s shorter version, as well as the one in the OP. But I would say <20 is a bit too low. I consider lowpop <35 personally, because it’s at those numbers that the crew usually doesn’t even have a hope of stopping a murderboner. Perhaps <30 is a bit more reasonable.
I feel like 30 is too high, maybe compromise at 25?
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by sinfulbliss » #684068

Vekter wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 7:56 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 7:45 pm I like Wabash’s shorter version, as well as the one in the OP. But I would say <20 is a bit too low. I consider lowpop <35 personally, because it’s at those numbers that the crew usually doesn’t even have a hope of stopping a murderboner. Perhaps <30 is a bit more reasonable.
I feel like 30 is too high, maybe compromise at 25?
That would be generous yeah. I can just easily see a lot of antags wiping the whole station at 25-30 with relative ease, since there’s not much sec until you start to get into the 30s, and if I’m reading this right that would be allowed since it wouldn’t be considered lowpop.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by WineAllWine » #684071

I agree with your definition of murderbone vekter.

But...it's quite an odd ruling to have on the books? Like we can note this thing. OK. What happens if someone gets 9 notes for doing it? Does that mean admins should ban them? Or hold them to harsher punishments if they do a bannable offence?

Also, admins can just note whatever. The barrier for getting a note removed is incredibly high.

Just overturn the ruling imo
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by sinfulbliss » #684073

WineAllWine wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 8:15 pm Also, admins can just note whatever. The barrier for getting a note removed is incredibly high.

Just overturn the ruling imo
Very much disagree with this proposal. By the same logic you could overturn all the rulings and just let admins note whatever under rule 1. The point is that on LRP it’s generally assumed antags can do absolutely whatever they want, with very very few exceptions, and codifying one of those exceptions into the rules is useful.

There’s also likely a variance in what admins think is okay. Some admins would probably frown at murderboning on 40pop if there’s no opposition. Maybe some wouldn’t find it noteworthy until pop is at 15. This isn’t very useful because players who feel like murderboning as an antag (their godgiven right on LRP) have nothing to go off of. “Am I at lowpop yet? It’s 32pop, can I murderbone? Am I risking getting a note if I murderbone at 28pop?”

That’s the reason for the policythread I think.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684074

WineAllWine wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 8:15 pm I agree with your definition of murderbone vekter.

But...it's quite an odd ruling to have on the books? Like we can note this thing. OK. What happens if someone gets 9 notes for doing it? Does that mean admins should ban them? Or hold them to harsher punishments if they do a bannable offence?

Also, admins can just note whatever. The barrier for getting a note removed is incredibly high.

Just overturn the ruling imo
So because of the way rule 4 is worded, we have to have exceptions to it if we want things like this to be something we can note for.
Lone antagonists can do whatever they want except metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.
We would either need to modify rule 4 as a whole or add a ruling or precedent saying that killing everyone on low pop isn't permitted. Without the ruling, any note about lowpop indiscriminate murder would be overturned because it's not technically against the rules. The original ruling already says "Repeated notes may result in bans", so presumably we're expected to escalate to bans if it continues to be an issue after, say, 3-4 notes.

E: Sinful's post hits it mostly on the nose. Part of this is to give admins a clearer definition as to when they can or can't act on this while the other part is to give players a better indication as to what is and isn't allowed in these cases. My main motivation to make the thread is because the majority of people on lowpop Basil don't understand what "murderboning" means, so we should codify that.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by WineAllWine » #684080

As far as I'm aware, something doesn't have to be against the rules to be noted. The barrier for a note being overturned is "was it factually correct" and "does it paint the player in an unfair light, given the situation"

I am not claiming this is how it should be or not, just this is what I interpret the current rules as
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684086

WineAllWine wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 8:31 pm As far as I'm aware, something doesn't have to be against the rules to be noted. The barrier for a note being overturned is "was it factually correct" and "does it paint the player in an unfair light, given the situation"

I am not claiming this is how it should be or not, just this is what I interpret the current rules as
Even if that's the case, we can't ban someone for something that isn't against the rules. Noting for this without actually being able to act on it would serve no purpose.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by WineAllWine » #684089

I've shown my ignorance and didn't read the second sentence of the ruling in this thread. I'm just too impati- uh whatever.

Ignore everything I've said in this thread. Or everything I've ever said if you prefer
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Nabski » #684097

Can something be thrown in about shuttle calls? Like if the shuttle can't be recalled then who cares if you've murdered the entire crew. I feel like some of the issue is that lowpop shifts go longer so there's a good chance that if you're dead you're dead for a long time.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by vect0r » #684101

Noting for somebody who doesn't break any rules feels yucky, at least for me.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684108

Nabski wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 9:36 pm Can something be thrown in about shuttle calls? Like if the shuttle can't be recalled then who cares if you've murdered the entire crew. I feel like some of the issue is that lowpop shifts go longer so there's a good chance that if you're dead you're dead for a long time.
Maybe, but I kinda feel like it shouldn't be happening at all, even if the round's almost over.
vect0r wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:09 pm Noting for somebody who doesn't break any rules feels yucky, at least for me.
Lowpop indiscriminate murder is usually covered under rule 1.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by vect0r » #684112

Vekter wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:00 pm
vect0r wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:09 pm Noting for somebody who doesn't break any rules feels yucky, at least for me.
Lowpop indiscriminate murder is usually covered under rule 1.
Just talking in general, I know this is already covered, but Wine talking about how you can already note people.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #684134

What pop gives the crew skeleton crew id changes? Whatever pop that is, make indiscriminate murder not allowed at the same level.

I also agree with what was said earlier about "Who cares if people do it after shuttle can no longer be recalled?", though. At that point the shift is basically over.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by conrad » #684167

I would be very careful with hardlining a definite number for lowpop and would say ~25 rather than 25.

I'm 99% someone would appeal on the grounds that "it wasn't actually lowpop, there's 26 people" on a rulebreak.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Fatal » #684180

As the person who pushed for the original policy of this, yeah, hard agree

Murderboning is a term that's now thrown around for single kills, and the meaning of it just isn't the same (for those not old like myself and vekter, murderboning was the term for trying to murder as many people on the station as possible as an antagonist, not single kills)

The main reason for the policy is that you would often have multiple antags on <10 players and the whole game just falls apart, and running around trying to murder everyone can just kill off a servers population (and did with event hall) and this doesn't change that, it just makes it clearer
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by sinfulbliss » #684194

conrad wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:28 pm I would be very careful with hardlining a definite number for lowpop and would say ~25 rather than 25.

I'm 99% someone would appeal on the grounds that "it wasn't actually lowpop, there's 26 people" on a rulebreak.
The admin shouldn’t be noting for murderboning above the predefined “lowpop” number, so they would have no reason to appeal, in theory.

Also, I think if a definite number is given, it should be specified whether that’s the number on the crew manifest, or the number when you use the “Who” button. Personally I use the Who button which is much easier but a bit inaccurate since a portion of them could be already dead or observing (also the reason I use <35 as my lowpop number).
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Vekter » #684304

conrad wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:28 pm I would be very careful with hardlining a definite number for lowpop and would say ~25 rather than 25.

I'm 99% someone would appeal on the grounds that "it wasn't actually lowpop, there's 26 people" on a rulebreak.
This would be a non-issue, as we wouldn't be punishing people for indiscriminate murder over that definite population number.
Fatal wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 2:54 pm As the person who pushed for the original policy of this, yeah, hard agree

Murderboning is a term that's now thrown around for single kills, and the meaning of it just isn't the same (for those not old like myself and vekter, murderboning was the term for trying to murder as many people on the station as possible as an antagonist, not single kills)

The main reason for the policy is that you would often have multiple antags on <10 players and the whole game just falls apart, and running around trying to murder everyone can just kill off a servers population (and did with event hall) and this doesn't change that, it just makes it clearer
New players never had to deal with cloaker/esword or ebow/esword bullshit and it shows.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Cobby » #685237

how many people do you think should be able to be freekilled on a server where small changes in population can make or break people joining for a while?

if there are say 25 people and 1-2 traitors, and they get their allocated 3 freekills in each, thats almost 1/4 of the entire server. Lets imagine that they LEGALLY kill a few more because well while killing/hiding the bodies of the free kills they got some very obvious pushback, thats definitely over 1/4th.

Now imagine that some people are observing (players cannot tell this info), so now you have like 1/3 of the station dead, the other third is just trying to explore game mechanics or do wacky stuff they couldnt do in the game at higher pops and equally dgaf about the dead people, and the rest are suppose to face people who are likely more equipped than them (which actually they should just not involve themselves in any form because if they do then they cannot be killed since the baddies got their cap reached).

Heaven forbid the traitor also gets a kill objective later.

The problem with lowpop picking people/a particular person off outside of the game flow is that there are WAY LESS people to attempt to counter the individual, to bother finding the killed, or even get the person healed. Its part of the game if they have you as their objective or the RNG wanted to cause mischief and spawn something that can kill indiscriminately, but getting picked off because "well im an antag" just encourages flat out disconnecting, which is explicitly what the rule is trying to ensure people avoid doing.

This heavily assumes you would not note someone who slaughters half the station if after their objective they were chased by a large percent (an actually low number) of currently active players. When we fight against "boning" in the rules its to prevent senseless killing, not things that naturally transpire because you're an antag (such as defending yourself). The rules attempt to convey that nuance because we dont want admins just calculating percent then noting on it if the killings made sense.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by HeyHey » #685381

Cobby wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 4:14 am how many people do you think should be able to be freekilled on a server where small changes in population can make or break people joining for a while?

if there are say 25 people and 1-2 traitors, and they get their allocated 3 freekills in each, thats almost 1/4 of the entire server. Lets imagine that they LEGALLY kill a few more because well while killing/hiding the bodies of the free kills they got some very obvious pushback, thats definitely over 1/4th.

Now imagine that some people are observing (players cannot tell this info), so now you have like 1/3 of the station dead, the other third is just trying to explore game mechanics or do wacky stuff they couldnt do in the game at higher pops and equally dgaf about the dead people, and the rest are suppose to face people who are likely more equipped than them (which actually they should just not involve themselves in any form because if they do then they cannot be killed since the baddies got their cap reached).

Heaven forbid the traitor also gets a kill objective later.

The problem with lowpop picking people/a particular person off outside of the game flow is that there are WAY LESS people to attempt to counter the individual, to bother finding the killed, or even get the person healed. Its part of the game if they have you as their objective or the RNG wanted to cause mischief and spawn something that can kill indiscriminately, but getting picked off because "well im an antag" just encourages flat out disconnecting, which is explicitly what the rule is trying to ensure people avoid doing.

This heavily assumes you would not note someone who slaughters half the station if after their objective they were chased by a large percent (an actually low number) of currently active players. When we fight against "boning" in the rules its to prevent senseless killing, not things that naturally transpire because you're an antag (such as defending yourself). The rules attempt to convey that nuance because we dont want admins just calculating percent then noting on it if the killings made sense.
That's a lot of words to imply that LRP players want to play MRP/HRP (where there are much more codified laws about killing without valid IC reasoning.).
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Cobby » #685383

HeyHey wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:24 pm That's a lot of words to imply that LRP players want to play MRP/HRP (where there are much more codified laws about killing without valid IC reasoning.).
The rule is based on not killing the server population, it has nothing to do with X-level RP restrictions. Its not LRP to ask you to be cognizant of the population and understand that wiping the few people makes it extremely difficult to get a good amount of players on.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by HeyHey » #685403

Cobby wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:41 pm
HeyHey wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 11:24 pm That's a lot of words to imply that LRP players want to play MRP/HRP (where there are much more codified laws about killing without valid IC reasoning.).
The rule is based on not killing the server population, it has nothing to do with X-level RP restrictions. Its not LRP to ask you to be cognizant of the population and understand that wiping the few people makes it extremely difficult to get a good amount of players on.
I disagree with that assumption, at worst a murder boner on lower pop will just shift the players to the other TG servers
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Cobby » #685459

HeyHey wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 3:51 am I disagree with that assumption, at worst a murder boner on lower pop will just shift the players to the other TG servers
So do you assume the opposite that a murderbone on the normal pop will shift the players to a low pop server? If not, that just reinforces the point you're hollowing out that particular server, no?

The rule was not made in the ether, it was put in place because (at least at the time it was added) it was a surefire way of making it so ppl wouldnt be joining that server for the next few hours.

When I say server I mean that particular server, i dont agree with the idea that its ok to kill 1 server for a few hours by shifting players since with the exception of B/S, every server has a pretty dramatic difference be it data center, rules, or both.
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Re: Revise the "Lowpop Murderbone" ruling

Post by Misdoubtful » #686574

We welcome admins to note players for indiscriminate murder during low population rounds at their discretion.

Indiscriminate murder can be defined as "any killing that is done for no reason other than expanding ones body count". This has a high impact when there are less players than usual by blatantly and noticeably depopulating the station.

In short: We don't mind people doing gameplay gimmicks or making cool traps/contraptions that result in plenty of death. However we are targeting blatantly and noticeably depopulating the station. In the least we would also like to see efforts be made to call the shuttle and keep the game moving.

Kieth4: Agree with modification
Misdoubtful: Agree with modification
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