Pill SM's lag or fad?

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Drag
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Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Drag » #684176

I saw minor debate in admin channels if pill SM's should be banned or not, since they typically cause a massive amount of lag.

Discuss
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by conrad » #684179

Exploit for the purpose of lagging the server. Requires knowledge of how it works. Is done on purpose.

Permaban IMO. There's little to think.
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dendydoom wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:51 am conrad is a badass
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kayozz wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:13 pm
Kendrickorium wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 11:53 am
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conrad wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:47 am I'm with Gupta on this one you only ever get two eyeballs.
Speak for yourself two-eyes.
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Drag wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:51 pm We should do a weighted random headmins vote, let God decide
It would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
Lacran wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:02 pm If you can't do the time, don't play a mime
kayozz wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:04 pm Don't wanna get beat? Keep your clown shoes on your feet.
kieth4 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:03 pm I have clapped women with cat ears but I would not clap a cat fr kinda a flarped up connection
Vekter wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:13 pm I don't care if you disagree, you're wrong.
yttriums wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:13 am borg players shouldn't be able to ahelp. you signed up to play as a piece of equipment. this is like a table ahelping you for wrenching it
dendydoom wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:02 pm basically what we learned from this is that i continue to be right about everything
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Striders13 » #684182

conrad wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 2:47 pm Exploit for the purpose of lagging the server. Requires knowledge of how it works. Is done on purpose.

Permaban IMO. There's little to think.
not necessarily. People like building cool shit, sm powered by infinite pills is cool.

You can build it without causing obscene lag if you moderate the amount of pills, so we don't really need a full stop ban on this. Deal with it on a case by case basis, ain't rocket science.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by conrad » #684187

The "it's done on purpose" refers to "it's done with the purpose of causing lag" for shits and giggles. If they're building it for fun and not causing trouble, it's fine.
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dendydoom wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 11:51 am conrad is a badass
Armhulen wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pm
The Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
kayozz wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 1:13 pm
Kendrickorium wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 11:53 am
kayozz wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:24 am
conrad wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:47 am I'm with Gupta on this one you only ever get two eyeballs.
Speak for yourself two-eyes.
With love,
A genuine cyclops.
absolutely based, do you wear an eyepatch?
That would render a cyclops blind.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pm
Drag wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:51 pm We should do a weighted random headmins vote, let God decide
It would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
Lacran wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:02 pm If you can't do the time, don't play a mime
kayozz wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:04 pm Don't wanna get beat? Keep your clown shoes on your feet.
kieth4 wrote: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:03 pm I have clapped women with cat ears but I would not clap a cat fr kinda a flarped up connection
Vekter wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:13 pm I don't care if you disagree, you're wrong.
yttriums wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:13 am borg players shouldn't be able to ahelp. you signed up to play as a piece of equipment. this is like a table ahelping you for wrenching it
dendydoom wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:02 pm basically what we learned from this is that i continue to be right about everything
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by sinfulbliss » #684191

conrad wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 3:51 pm The "it's done on purpose" refers to "it's done with the purpose of causing lag" for shits and giggles. If they're building it for fun and not causing trouble, it's fine.
Uhhh what?

How do you differentiate between a pill SM built “for fun” and a pill SM built “for the purpose of causing lag”? How is one kosher and the other is a “permabannable offense”?

It’s very obviously just a silly gimmick, should never be disallowed. The lag is only an issue if you’re in the SM room which isn’t important because you’d be there for the pill SM anyway.
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NamelessFairy
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by NamelessFairy » #684214

I was involved in this debate in admin channels. I firmly believe that if a pill SM is not causing lag then it should not be considered rule breaking in any capacity. If its causing server lag then sure, the player should be told to cut it out as if it was any other lag machine, if its not then its fair game. This feels like taking a sledgehammer to fix an issue that can only be seen under a microscope.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by iamgoofball » #684251

Pill SM is technically the most optimized way to run the SM
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Nabski » #684256

Player take. I've seen them and never knew that they would be a lag problem. I always thought it was a clever way to combine two systems.

If you're building a machine to intentionally lag, that's bad.
If you're trying to be creative that's good.

If it's a consistent lag problem maybe that's a code issue.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by iain0 » #684299

Downvote, it's not something thats obviously a problem, nor is it actually always a problem, a couple of machines doing a couple of pills doesn't really cause an issue and engineers experimenting with this is pretty normal, its not intuitively a problem or rule breaking.

The issue is when people go insane with the number of them and or it breaks or similar, in which case talking to the player, noting them to say they're aware not to build excessive contraptions that spawn items e.g. pill SM and move on will almost certainly cover things. There's a couple of admin tricks I think for purging the items.

This issue isn't exclusive to pill SM either, I've seen a mob farming factory on Campbell that had been left on for god knows how many hours (it's campbell...), the lag was some of the most intense i've seen and it lagged the server for like 30 seconds cleaning it up. Same reaction, note the person not to leave endless spawning factories unattended and move on.

Obviously if you can sufficiently suspect (e.g. notes) or prove intent then happy fun banning time.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Vekter » #684302

I feel like someone should do some testing to see if it actually causes lag or not. If so, get rid of it. If not, keep it.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by blackdav123 » #684308

Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:58 pm I feel like someone should do some testing to see if it actually causes lag or not. If so, get rid of it. If not, keep it.
having large amounts of items on a conveyor belt does in fact cause lag
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Vekter » #684309

blackdav123 wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:16 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:58 pm I feel like someone should do some testing to see if it actually causes lag or not. If so, get rid of it. If not, keep it.
having large amounts of items on a conveyor belt does in fact cause lag
Yeah, I hate stifling creativity, but I think this shouldn't be allowed if it's going to cause lag. Maybe just have a rule saying we can tell people to stop or delete it manually if it's causing lag?
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by blackdav123 » #684314

Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:24 pm
blackdav123 wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:16 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:58 pm I feel like someone should do some testing to see if it actually causes lag or not. If so, get rid of it. If not, keep it.
having large amounts of items on a conveyor belt does in fact cause lag
Yeah, I hate stifling creativity, but I think this shouldn't be allowed if it's going to cause lag. Maybe just have a rule saying we can tell people to stop or delete it manually if it's causing lag?
I think this is well within the powers admins already have. If someone is lagging the server intentionally or unintentionally you can make them stop and note them if needed.

Being a good DM is also something admins should keep in mind and not stomp on somebody's sand castles if they arent causing problems. If someone is making something like this in good faith ask them to dismantle it and give them a reward for their ingenuity or provide roleplay opportunities by sending in an inspector or something.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Vekter » #684316

blackdav123 wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:39 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:24 pm
blackdav123 wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:16 pm
Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:58 pm I feel like someone should do some testing to see if it actually causes lag or not. If so, get rid of it. If not, keep it.
having large amounts of items on a conveyor belt does in fact cause lag
Yeah, I hate stifling creativity, but I think this shouldn't be allowed if it's going to cause lag. Maybe just have a rule saying we can tell people to stop or delete it manually if it's causing lag?
I think this is well within the powers admins already have. If someone is lagging the server intentionally or unintentionally you can make them stop and note them if needed.

Being a good DM is also something admins should keep in mind and not stomp on somebody's sand castles if they arent causing problems. If someone is making something like this in good faith ask them to dismantle it and give them a reward for their ingenuity or provide roleplay opportunities by sending in an inspector or something.
The only issue with this is that admins often don't have the tools or knowledge to know what is and isn't causing lag. What if we break someone's shit and it doesn't fix the lag?
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by NamelessFairy » #684317

Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 5:50 pm The only issue with this is that admins often don't have the tools or knowledge to know what is and isn't causing lag. What if we break someone's shit and it doesn't fix the lag?
We can do the best we can with the information available, if the lag isn't fixed then we can compensate the player in most cases by just replacing what we deleted.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #684323

If we want to outlaw this we should really make it so there is no in game/in character insentive for doing it. This might be a coding matter, but patching code problems with policy never ends well.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by TheFinalPotato » #684545

Vekter wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 3:58 pm I feel like someone should do some testing to see if it actually causes lag or not. If so, get rid of it. If not, keep it.
If done at scale they wreck havoc with the sm pulling code, alongside the traditional issues that come with item spam (lagging out clients)
I don't think it's useful to ban something like this. It's a fun bit of the sandbox. Use nuance.

As a promise from me, if I see terry spike to 90td and log on and there's a pill sm that lags my client when I get near it, I'm nuking it and you can suck dirt.
If it doesn't get that bad then none will care, and you shouldn't do anything about it.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Critawakets » #684686

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:36 am If done at scale they wreck havoc with the sm pulling code, alongside the traditional issues that come with item spam (lagging out clients)
honestly if its too laggy SM pulling could probably just be taken out, it's very confusing to people who don't know about it, and the original purpose of adding it was to deal with an exploit that no longer even exists.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by TheFinalPotato » #684776

SM pulling has been in the game since 2017, it was just poorly implemented so it didn't actually work. The exploit bit was just a happy side effect.
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Re: Pill SM's lag or fad?

Post by Misdoubtful » #686964

We see this as something lacking a need for a specific yes or no.

Many SM powering gimmicks like this exist, including disposals chutes for trash, harvesting legions, and pills for example. We would like to promote that creativity overall.

If a specific situation is causing and creating enough strain to create a laggy environment we encourage admins to ask that the occurrence be turned down to a lower volume.

Otherwise we feel that this is a code related circumstance of things like this being viable, and point towards the following reply in this thread:
TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:36 am If done at scale they wreck havoc with the sm pulling code, alongside the traditional issues that come with item spam (lagging out clients)
I don't think it's useful to ban something like this. It's a fun bit of the sandbox. Use nuance.

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