/tg/Station 13

There was some discussion in internal admin channels around this statement here.

"There’s probably nothing explicit written down, it’s been a tradition for many years that once shit hits the fan you can purge non-implanted on the basis they’re probably revs"

Some admins agreed and said that they thought this was the agreed upon consensus whilst others disagreed. There's a real split on this issue.

If you agree, why?

If you disagree, what do you want the heads to do when it's impossible for whatever reason to get implants?

I felt that the internal discussions got rather circular so I've brought it out here for the general playerbase to peruse and pick at.

There's always a line as crew where the only option left is to kill everything without a mindshield until you either win or lose.

It depends entirely on the IC factors, but the closer the mindshielded crew is to losing, the more power they have to kill anyone or anything that doesn't have a mindshield.

Also when you're out of or low on mindshields, you can't easily get any more and it's not practicable to non-lethally detain people anymore.

There's definitely a point where the mindshielded crew can enter fight-for-your-life mode. And if it doesn't have a mindshield, it dies or you do until the revolution is quelled or the heads die in a blaze of blood and glory.

whats the actually contentious part, where the line in the sand is or the idea you can rambo to begin with?

Its a conversion antag who can convert much easier than you can prevent, once revs starts acting out in the open youre free to harass people.

youd have to sell me on killing a guy who isnt bothering anyone just working in his office though I think. The point is to win so everyone comes to their senses, not be a threshold upon which you get to be the defacto antag too.

As long as it is announced loudly with a desk announcement that if you dont get a mindshield you will get lethaled, I am all for it.
I find it fun seeing big announcements during a crisis saying: "Follow these orders now!" It feels like I am in a real corporate society.
Keep it in yes.

It depends in some factors. What if you're just killing folk in their departments one by one in places that person wouldn't be remotely able to do any harm, like actively doing their job and not assisting the revolution? You probably shouldn't kill them even in a desperate situation unless you've exhausted all other potential candidates for the headrev, like those actively involved in the fight.

The reason I say this is because I am worried it will start to degrade over time as the nuance to that situation is lost on people learning from others and not getting the full context. And once you start having people adopt tactics that are more and more extreme with the intent of efficiently winning these modes, even at the expense of enjoyment, the harder it is to wean it out of them when they work out it is effective.

As a very good example of efficiency dominating player interactions, I've found that cultists are more often killed and bodies hidden/destroyed rather than deconverted, even in ideal circumstances that allow for deconversion. The only saving grace to that getting significantly worse was the halo change that signposted for players a method to gauge how severe the situation is, and prevent the same indiscriminate murder of revs. Yet I still see people just kill and destroy cultists despite the cult maybe being fairly small, and the halo change is the only thing preventing sec murdering literally everyone if a cult round drags on.

I think nothing should be standardized or even openly accepted. Let the players make these calls themselves and justify it should scrutiny be leveled at them. If it was quietly understood to be allowed up too now, then nothing need change, it is probably fine as it is.

I feel this shares some similarities with lategame cult. Its okay to kill a few, as long as there is an active effort to convert as many people as possible.

things are fine as is. revolutions are a fast and violent conflict and you need to either “pick” a side and fight valiantly for it or hide in your office and wait for it to blow over or risk getting killed by either side. most of the time during midgame rev rounds sec / heads do not have time to “hey what are your unfiltered thoughts about unions? its ok you can be honest :)” and revs dont have time to ask nonrevs “hey are you a supporter or member of nanotrasen command / security? be honest no lying!”. If you see someone not on your side in a hallway you either turn around and start usain bolting out of there or you hit them with a clothesline from hell as shown below but that in itself is enough communication and rev rounds are unique in this way, as even cult rounds take until halos for that tension to be built (and even then, there might not be)

By purging are we talking about just killing people who presented no credible threat on the basis of no mindshield? I think it's dumb to Occam's razor rev purges down to solely the mindshield.

It would be odd for you to go to the arrivals shuttle and shoot unmindshielded crew or go to lavalandland and kill shaft miners, or the botanists growing plain old vegetables.

I think it's more that the players are running around the public hallways 50 minutes into a rev round. So either you are being incredibly stupid, or you are a rev in security's mind.

That fits more with a martial law type thing. Similar to delta. If sec sees you not in your department, you aren't giving them a reason to NOT shoot you and you have no mindshield, you are valid.

If shit has hit the fan heads and sec should be able to just merk anyone that walks nearby them or follows them. If you’re not a rev you probably shouldn’t be walking around in the halls following sec and command around!!

Will that mean a couple nonrevs get gunned down in the halls for no reason? Inevitably. Is that simply a part of the paranoia-laden roleplaying game? Also yes.

The alternative is the Fulp method of basically telling command, “tough shit.” Do things right or don’t do things at all, if you lose in the process oh well. Die then. I think that’s quite and doesn’t take the gamemode seriously enough.

Honestly trying to police this just demonstrates a lack of confidence in the playerbase.

Conflict is good and everyone knows that rev turns into mayhem really fast.

I've tried to N2O flood as chief engineer a few times on the clear losing end of a revolution so that I can try to get to an escape route. Admins have almost universally looked down on me/given me shit for it. Feels bad.

It always feels weird when I'm playing, like, Chief Engineer and I'm expected to go down swinging the axe trying to get to a pod or the gateway as opposed to building a flamethrower, flooding with sleepy gas and using all my department tools to get there.

The expectation has genuinely been that I do this as opposed to the nonlethal flood.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 12:42 am I've tried to N2O flood as chief engineer a few times on the clear losing end of a revolution so that I can try to get to an escape route. Admins have almost universally looked down on me/given me shit for it. Feels bad.

It always feels weird when I'm playing, like, Chief Engineer and I'm expected to go down swinging the axe trying to get to a pod or the gateway as opposed to building a flamethrower, flooding with sleepy gas and using all my department tools to get there.

The expectation has genuinely been that I do this as opposed to the nonlethal flood.

Im building a disposals cannon on rev rounds to blast those revs to bits if they riot at my engineering door. (havnt got to use it yet)
If I get bwoinked for it so be it.

I personally think that an N2O can flood is fine and great idea to do if revs are winning, especially if you are vocal about it. As long as you clean it up if revs lose its good. Shame admins don't think the same way

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 12:42 am I've tried to N2O flood as chief engineer a few times on the clear losing end of a revolution so that I can try to get to an escape route. Admins have almost universally looked down on me/given me shit for it. Feels bad.

It always feels weird when I'm playing, like, Chief Engineer and I'm expected to go down swinging the axe trying to get to a pod or the gateway as opposed to building a flamethrower, flooding with sleepy gas and using all my department tools to get there.

The expectation has genuinely been that I do this as opposed to the nonlethal flood.

Yeah admins seem to still crack down on crew actually becoming more aggressive during rev, doesn't matter if 90% of admins think its fine when you still get a ban/note from the one that thinks its not ok. I also got noted for giving the AI the lawset "prevent revolutionary takeover of the station by any means necessary" when shit hit the fan. "bla bla harm to crew bla bla". Law didn't even say to harm any crew and AI didn't even kill anyone.....

Seems a CE flooding would make sense but IMO only if the other heads are dead along with sec. If sec and the other heads are long gone I’d think you can start massively nuking parts of the station to oppose the rev threat.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:42 am I also got noted for giving the AI the lawset "prevent revolutionary takeover of the station by any means necessary" when shit hit the fan. "bla bla harm to crew bla bla". Law didn't even say to harm any crew and AI didn't even kill anyone.....

Appeal that. don’t let your notes sit out of laziness because they will eventually bite you in the ass

Wonton flooding doesn’t make sense, again the objective of “gloves off” is so you can hasten the victory condition at the cost of suspicious individuals who may not be antags, it isn’t to give you green light to shoehorn yourself into the antagonist role yourself by killing literally everyone else.

You can also escape if you don’t feel comfortable tackling the baddies, I don’t think there is a sensible situation where you prioritize making revs lose to the point non revs are indiscriminately killed by you in pursuit of that even if they aren’t posing any threat beyond existing.

I’d be fine with killing anyone in the halls, but random guy chilling in his office doesn’t need to die because you feel empowered to act as the defacto antag to ensure the guys with actual objectives lose imo.

Yeah it's not a free for all. It's a standard code delta situation. Stay in your department, obey sec orders if they see you, or get shot for not being shielded.

Cobby wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 3:08 pm You can also escape if you don’t feel comfortable tackling the baddies, I don’t think there is a sensible situation where you prioritize making revs lose to the point non revs are indiscriminately killed by you in pursuit of that even if they aren’t posing any threat beyond existing.

this is where i sorta disagree. i think escaping as a head, ending the rev threat instantly, is pretty much the worst thing you can do. it’s very cowardly and ruins the challenge of the whole gamemode. you should make a last stand even if it’s just getting got immediately

that last stand doesn’t need to be killing some guy in his office in viro. but it can be walking through the halls and shooting everything that moves even remotely near you

either way works, but "i want to flood distro" is where I personally start rolling my eyes.

Flamethrower would be fine since its localized.

When I'm talking about flodding, I'm talking about using a can and opening it, or a flamethrower. Putting a can into distro is much harder to clean up and is less useful for a rev situation IMHO. It also is a bit cringe since you are not an antag yet. If you want to put it in distro you gotta get the enemy of the revolution antag status (being alive and not on station) in my opinion before doing it.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 1:18 pm Seems a CE flooding would make sense but IMO only if the other heads are dead along with sec. If sec and the other heads are long gone I’d think you can start massively nuking parts of the station to oppose the rev threat.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:42 am I also got noted for giving the AI the lawset "prevent revolutionary takeover of the station by any means necessary" when shit hit the fan. "bla bla harm to crew bla bla". Law didn't even say to harm any crew and AI didn't even kill anyone.....

Appeal that. don’t let your notes sit out of laziness because they will eventually bite you in the ass

I was very much the last one left, there were like three random grays talking shit on command comms lmao

Killing people in the hallways or people who are actively doing something detrimental or potentially detrimental to the crew side is fine after a certain point. Killing the toxins scientist is fine, killing the roboticist who hasn't left his department the whole round probably isn't.

I usually play roles that sort of stay out of the station drama or mind their own business, but the frequency with which terry players will see the team antag status and think "cool i can murderbone now" is, frankly, too damn high.
Some people just wanna mine/grow weed/grill rather than engage in silly corporate politics

Revs disrupting the round is to some extent the point, I hope that isn't lost in whatever is made of this.

As someone that actively resists both being revved and mindshielding during revs on a regular basis and tends to remain a neutral party for as long as possible, more often than not the people that randomly bust into my department and lethal me are security. There's a weird double standard in play where I've been told that I can't kill security for forcibly breaking into my department to mindshield me, a botanist who has been doing my job all shift, but they can kill me on the spot for trying to evade the mindshielding even if the evasion is done using non-lethals and non-stuns, because they're "just doing their job" and that there's no reason to resist a mindshield as a non-rev, which is an embarrassingly NRP opinion that the admins tend to have. From a character perspective, tons of people wouldn't be happy about being chased by the cops and stabbed full of some dodgy implant that "prevents brainwashing". Mind you, this is usually in situations where there's multiple officers chasing me down in an isolated low-risk area where they aren't in real danger, so it's definitely people just being kill happy.

So no, simply existing as a non-mindshielded person isn't a reason to get killed on the spot. Avoiding implants isn't a reason to get killed on the spot, but beaten until you can implant, sure, albeit that route should open the implanter up to escalation since now you were forcibly removed from the neutral territory to the "revs will probably kill you" territory. If a head is in an "everyone is probably a rev" scenario with no implants, they're already open to loose escalation with people that follow them, but there are a few options left.

1) Order more. Console is destroyed? There are spare boards. No funds? Scavenge some. Cargo heavily guarded by revs? Tough luck, that's part of the challenge.
2) Acquire surgical tools/medbot/healing chems, random detain people if the situation is a "I'm probably the last one left shit hit the fan" scenario, check for flash, administer brute force on head repeatedly, heal, beat some more, if no deconversion, maybe a rev head, but at least you've confirmed that they're probably not a rev. Not an absolute fix, but better than nothing. If you do find a rev, generally everyone in their department will also be one.
3) Comms console, ask Centcom for backup/mindshields. The message Nanotrasen button is usually only used for stupid shit, but admins are happy it gets used in situations where the round has been dragging on and is really fucked, but they aren't sure if they should intervene just yet. A convincing IC message can often hasten that process.
4) Check for potential rev heads using the shuttles off the z-level. Cuff, buckle, send off z-level. Not an absolute fix, but great for "one rev head left, one head of staff left" scenarios. Can also get them out of your hair for a bit if they're only a suspect but haven't done enough to be lethalled.
5) Pray for mindshields. Get some stupid ritual done. If the round has stalled that long for, admins will go for minimum effort prayers if they think it's a fair solution and will speed things up.
6) Accept that the game is to have fun, not to play to win, and sometimes you are just put in lose-lose scenarios where you working with nothing, will result in nothing. Having head status has its benefits and downsides, this is one of them.

Players will legitimately make up any excuse to go for lethals even as a non-antag. Let's not encourage security and heads, who have stronger metaprots, to do that even more.

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:58 pm As someone that actively resists both being revved and mindshielding during revs on a regular basis and tends to remain a neutral party for as long as possible, more often than not the people that randomly bust into my department and lethal me are security. There's a weird double standard in play where I've been told that I can't kill security for forcibly breaking into my department to mindshield me, a botanist who has been doing my job all shift, but they can kill me on the spot for trying to evade the mindshielding even if the evasion is done using non-lethals and non-stuns, because they're "just doing their job" and that there's no reason to resist a mindshield as a non-rev, which is an embarrassingly NRP opinion that the admins tend to have. From a character perspective, tons of people wouldn't be happy about being chased by the cops and stabbed full of some dodgy implant that "prevents brainwashing". Mind you, this is usually in situations where there's multiple officers chasing me down in an isolated low-risk area where they aren't in real danger, so it's definitely people just being kill happy.

So no, simply existing as a non-mindshielded person isn't a reason to get killed on the spot. Avoiding implants isn't a reason to get killed on the spot

actively avoiding mindshields (during a revolution) is grounds for execution, as a nanotrasen loyalist wouldnt have a reason to do this (during a revolution). Could the officer use nonlethal ways to force you to be implanted? sure but you run the risk of siding with revs when you kick and scream about not wanting an implant and that can lead to option B which most sec prefer

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:58 pm Avoiding implants isn't a reason to get killed on the spot,

This isn't correct. If sec enters your department to shield you after things have gone to shit, Under code delta you can be killed for refusal to co-operate.

In an emergency you listen to sec or you die

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:03 pmas a nanotrasen loyalist wouldnt have a reason to do this (during a revolution)

I've already covered this being an NRP argument and don't care for this nonsense. You are arguing there's no reason against it because you are purely thinking of mechanics, rather than the inconvenience of some paranoid cops with an entitlement complex busting in and demanding to stab you with an implant.

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:03 pmsure but you run the risk of siding with revs when you kick and scream about not wanting an implant and that can lead to option B which most sec prefer

If security ignore the rules to go for lethals in an isolated department where they've been met with non-lethal resistance, that's an issue with security and rule enforcement, not an issue with the resistor. Admins shouldn't be catering rulings to players that only care about racking up their kill count at any given chance.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:01 pm This isn't correct. If sec enters your department to shield you after things have gone to shit, Under code delta you can be killed for refusal to co-operate.

This isn't correct. The Standard Operating Procedure wiki has in a big red box at the top "Note: This page is merely a suggestion, much like the article concerning Space Law in general." If you have a specific ruling that says otherwise instead of "This is how I do it" I'd be happy to see it though.

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:31 pm

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:03 pmas a nanotrasen loyalist wouldnt have a reason to do this (during a revolution)

I've already covered this being an NRP argument and don't care for this nonsense. You are arguing there's no reason against it because you are purely thinking of mechanics, rather than the inconvenience of some paranoid cops with an entitlement complex busting in and demanding to stab you with an implant.

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:03 pmsure but you run the risk of siding with revs when you kick and scream about not wanting an implant and that can lead to option B which most sec prefer

If security ignore the rules to go for lethals in an isolated department where they've been met with non-lethal resistance, that's an issue with security and rule enforcement, not an issue with the resistor. Admins shouldn't be catering rulings to players that only care about racking up their kill count at any given chance.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:01 pm This isn't correct. If sec enters your department to shield you after things have gone to shit, Under code delta you can be killed for refusal to co-operate.

This isn't correct. The Standard Operating Procedure wiki has in a big red box at the top "Note: This page is merely a suggestion, much like the article concerning Space Law in general." If you have a specific ruling that says otherwise instead of "This is how I do it" I'd be happy to see it though.

This isn't an NRP arguement. Its in the sec officer's suggested guidelines that you should be shot in that situation. (Assuming we consider the revs strong enough to be Delta Level.) They are the valid station authority, you didn't obey a completely valid order during a Rev round.

If you look at it from a Roleplay perspective SOP and space law represent the training they've had, they're the IC reccomended guidelines. A sensible In-character action for a sec officer to take in an emergency is to follow these guidelines. If you want to roleplay a character that refuses lawful orders in a FUBAR rev situation, it is a sensible roleplay consequence that you may be killed for this.

From the perspective of the heads and sec, by refusing their orders, you are no longer a neutral party. As crew you have responsiblities and obligations in an extreme crisis, you failed to meet those, you got shot. That's how martial law functions.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:49 pm This isn't an NRP arguement. Its in the sec officer's suggested guidelines that you should be shot in that situation.

And suggested guidelines on Terry/Sybil will often you get mocked/controversy the same way if you follow Space Law to the word as they aren't applicable to an average round and seeing as the admins have differing opinions on if they have any merit in regards to the rules.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:49 pm (Assuming we consider the revs strong enough to be Delta Level.)

If you had just settled for red instead of reaching for delta, I'd consider this a good faith argument, since it already provides you with marital law and presents reasonable standards. But you didn't, so it just cements the fact that security will reach for any reason to kill.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:49 pm If you look at it from a Roleplay perspective SOP and space law represent the training they've had, they're the IC reccomended guidelines. A sensible In-character action for a sec officer to take in an emergency is to follow these guidelines.

Contradicting yourself. The IC recommended guidelines would be code red, while you are arguing for the traditional version which is more on delta level.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:49 pm If you want to roleplay a character that refuses lawful orders in a FUBAR rev situation, it is a sensible roleplay consequence that you may be killed for this.

Sure, but as I've already mentioned, sec metaprots are one-sided against neutral parties during revs. Admins will bwoink neutral parties for defending themselves against sec with lethals during revs, but find a situation where a non-rev of all people can non-lethally resist an officer, kick them out, and it won't lead to the officer just waging war against them all shift along with the rest of their team. Even though it stands to reason now that of course the person who resisted the officer but let them go scotch free with their gear isn't a rev, this generally leads to more lethals and round removal. They can't have it both ways. Either allow neutral parties the same relaxed escalation with sec that attacks them, which would fall in line with the point of rev rounds causing chaos, or remove "traditional enforcement" and have actual enforcement align with the rules.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:49 pm From the perspective of the heads and sec, by refusing their orders, you are no longer a neutral party. As crew you have responsiblities and obligations in an extreme crisis, you failed to meet those, you got shot. That's how martial law functions.

Which maybe warrants a good argument if your hypothetical "sec/heads does things right" scenario... ever happened. The reality is they just delta to speed call the shuttle, no attached announcement, maybe say once "mindshields in brig" radio common message, then run out and manhunt anyone without one. Security players having poor communication skills is the whole reason they got the new rule added to them to begin with, after all.

the only time I'll refuse or run from seccies trying to mindshield me is if I am an antagonist trying to stay neutral so I can play both sides. refusing mindshields as a nonantagonist without a good ass reason is shitter behavior and in my mind no different from willingly being converted.

you dont need to run out of your office to sec as a virologist to be mindshielded the instant someone shouts revs but if sec comes knocking and you refuse or run away then it is reasonable for them to start shooting.

1. Your arguement is "this is shitty conduct" is being countered with in some situations "this actually the reccomended conduct". You trying to argue that suggested conduct is ignored means even less when your only alternative is conduct YOU suggest which players will follow even less.

2. I am talking about Delta because I'm not 100% if we are allowed to consider anything but station self destruct "immenent station destruction." Red Alert is something you go to when cult/rev/wizard/nukies first appear. The argument presently isn't about when revs first appear, but acceptable conduct once the station has devolved into chaos and revs are now in a dominant position. A situation where the Cargo-brig mindshield route is no longer possible. A good faith discussion is you acknowledging the threat level of round start revs, vs late round revs are distinct. similar to that of cult, but with 0 visual indicators outside of the mindshield.

3. The contradiction would only be true if we don't consider delta applicable to anything but an activated self destruct nuke. Just like we don't have to physically be on code red to consider a situation code red and act accordingly, it is possible this could also be true for delta in the most extreme situations. AKA situations where the captain would have a completely valid reason to self destruct. Which CAN occur on a fubar rev round

4. During a conversion round, both sides will attempt to convert you, neither will take no for an answer because if they let you remain neutral its just as likely for another party to convert you. You only have grounds to lethally react to revs. Sec metaprotections are valid here because mindshielding you is literally their job. You are an employee and they are protecting you from brainwashing. You are an employee refusing to co-operate with an officer who is just trying to fufill the basics of their job in this situation. No that shoudn't void their metaprotections. And you non-harmfully robusting officers doesn't change the fact that as long as you remain unmindhsielded you are a rev waiting to happen and killing you is literally preferable than leaving you neutral. By playing Neutral you are a crew member choosing to not be crew aligned in a situation where neither party has any obligation to respect that. You choose that, it has consequences. Don't expect to be catered to for them.

A sensible neutral option is to allow the mindshield and then just don't hunt revs. You are choosing to resist sec in this situation. If you have no genuine desire to become a rev, take the mindshield as unlike revving, it doesn't compel behaviour.

5. You were given orders under martial law, you refused them, they tried to shield you, you resisted, they judged you no longer safe to detain, you were killed. Your general distaste for sec on your server aside. What rules/guidelines do you want to add that would be fair to both parties? Do you want mindshielding to be purely voluntary? Or do you just want anyone able to successfully resist arrest be completely ignored and forgotten about mid-conversion round? Because you are essentially saying that you want lone wolf liabilities to have metaprotections during martial law, which defeats the entire premise of it.

The big reason people don't want to get mindshielded is that it offers minimal benefit for the mindshielded person and so, so many risks. It's an absolute nessesity for security to figure out who is a loyalist or not, but there are zero reasons for a crew member to get mindshielded outside of once the station is in delta and security starts blasting. At that point, you're usually better off being a revolutionary though.

1. For revs
The only merciful part is that it's usually way easier to keep your head down during revs than it is during cult. Once open conflict begins, anyone without a respective icon next to their head is dead meat. Security shoots non-mindshielded on sight, revs will tend to kill non-converted targets on sight. In the event that you are mindshielded, you tend to just get killed flat out. I've only seen a single instance of someone using surgery to remove people's mindshields to allow them to be converted. Rev rounds tend to move way too quick for things like surgery. As opposed to cult, you can usually survive just by keeping your head down. Once the revolution is crushed, or the heads of staff are overthrown, any remaining mindshielded or nonconverted crew are treated just the same as normal revs. Sometimes this doesn't seem to slow down the bloodshed though.

2. For cult:
It's somehow even worse for cult. If you get mindshielded then you will get turned into a construct upon being converted. This is, without a doubt, literally the worst case scenario. If you die, that's effectively it, and you are round removed outside of becoming a posibrain or something. I never see the cult actually use their buildings and most of the time they're just running around funny handing people and converting them. Theoretically, you wouldn't have to wait all that long if you got round removed, as cult rounds tend to ramp up in destructiveness once mindshields get busted out. I still do see the occasional poor bastard that got mindshielded and then turned into a construct ten minutes into a round.

In addition, security tends to get more desperate for people to get mildshielded as the odds turn against them, which is also why it's a worse and worse idea to actually get mind-shielded.

Cult has the upside that conversion is more obvious and limited to runes (so they usually have to do it in maint rooms or secluded areas), the cultist tells get more obvious as the cult grows (red eyes, halo), and by the time the halos start coming out and cult goes loud, you still have the win condition of calling the shuttle and escaping, so it won't last.

Revolutions do not have that.

It's worse if you're in cult game mode as a mindshielded person, but ironically easier as a non-mindshielded one.

Once cult gets going they have eyes to check for cultists, you dont need to mindshield to check people. During revs the only options are either mindshield or beat the shit out of someone to see if they're a rev. If you dont like option A you're getting option B.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:02 am The big reason people don't want to get mindshielded is that it offers minimal benefit for the mindshielded person and so, so many risks. It's an absolute nessesity for security to figure out who is a loyalist or not, but there are zero reasons for a crew member to get mindshielded outside of once the station is in delta and security starts blasting. At that point, you're usually better off being a revolutionary though.

Yeah, saying that not wanting to be mindshielded is like seeking conversion is stupid. Being mindshield implanted is being forced to take securitys fight in the vs revs combat, it is effectively conversion in its own right. Sec wont take kindly to mindshielded crew who tell them to fuck off and go back to their department, and revs will kill them at first sight. Wanting to hide from the violence instead of participating is a totally valid IC move.

Of course, Sec are totally within their rights to blow you away for resisting too much and you can't kill them for doing so since theyre acting reasonably, so you better be a real slippery eel.

I don’t think letting sec mindshield you is the “sensible” move, considering you have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose. I guess if you wanna just do your job in your department and pretend revs don’t exist, a mindshield is a valid option.

But you can do that without being mindshielded, with the added benefit of not being killed by random unmarked people walking through the halls, so the sensible option is to do whatever you can nonlethally to avoid it.

One of the most important reasons for why people try to avoid mindshields is because revolutionaries usually never perform mindshield implant removal surgeries at all, even after they secured medbay as a base and have the tools to do it.

This means a lot of the time, mindshielded crew (and security) get round removed even when the revolution has already taken over the station.

only a revolutionary would resist the mental and emotional safety that a nanotrasen mindshield can provide during a revolution

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:00 pm only a revolutionary would resist the mental and emotional safety that a nanotrasen mindshield can provide during a revolution

Because there's nothing more mentally and emotionally reassuring than knowing that your chance of being killed indefinitely by rebels has now skyrocketed, right?

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:33 am

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:00 pm only a revolutionary would resist the mental and emotional safety that a nanotrasen mindshield can provide during a revolution

Because there's nothing more mentally and emotionally reassuring than knowing that your chance of being killed indefinitely by rebels has now skyrocketed, right?

What about when sec dont even tell you they are mindshielding you though, they just break in and batong, at that point they are valid to exterminate regardless of whatever intentions they kept to themselves.

Security love to stun baton which just so happens to be a weapon that allows someone to be round removed without counterplay accessible to most players.

leaning into that further, sec wearing their mask and not communicating at all and even just running at you with a baton in hand without any prior interaction is grounds for fight or flight (i make sure either i escape the encounter or you dont survive it)


And nothing in this thread talks about sec/command staff purposefully forcing rev win by all going together to lavaland then coming back and annihilating everyone that said "viva" on radio while everyone else, post rev or not, wonders what they can or cannot do as they watch their disbanded teammates get beat to death with a blank stare.

I watched it happen one round it was kinda both messed up and funny watching literal npcs watching fellow ex-revs get killed by sec in the hallways and then sec moved onto them and killed them while another ex-rev watched and then another and another on repeat lol.


TLDR: More on sec acting without communicating = bad
Also sec/command can (and have in the past) forced rev win/pretended to start losing to push their metaprotections to new heights (imagine literally feigning defeat to get policy on your side.)

To close this off I'll be quoting a timber post.

"There's always a line as crew where the only option left is to kill everything without a mindshield until you either win or lose.

It depends entirely on the IC factors, but the closer the mindshielded crew is to losing, the more power they have to kill anyone or anything that doesn't have a mindshield.

Also when you're out of or low on mindshields, you can't easily get any more and it's not practicable to non-lethally detain people anymore.

There's definitely a point where the mindshielded crew can enter fight-for-your-life mode. And if it doesn't have a mindshield, it dies or you do until the revolution is quelled or the heads die in a blaze of blood and glory."