/tg/Station 13

Apparently, people have found out that they can just debrain victims before doing the funny ritual to sacrifice them. After this occurs, they will RR the victim/their remains as they have gotten their point.

Maximizing the number of players you can remove from the round is very against the spirit of heretic as it is, as well as the MRP rules as a whole. For some reason these actions aren't against the rules, can we please amend this?

For this if the coders make organs drop on sac.

shitty behaviour, also ruins your antags rounds, not fun

Especially unfun to have some heretic roaming the halls on lowpop debraining people so they cant be revived on sacrifice

carshalash wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:42 amMaximizing the number of players you can remove from the round is very against the spirit of heretic as it is, as well as the MRP rules as a whole. For some reason these actions aren't against the rules, can we please amend this?

I thought heretic was disabled on MRP entirely? Guess it got re-enabled at some point.

Anyway, although I only play on LRP, I would like to counter-point that heretics need organs, including head organs. You need eyes for the heretic focus for example, or hearts for the curse of corrosion, or you actually need someone's head to create rust walkers as the rust heretic, or tons of organs for literally anything flesh heretic wants to do.

I don't think it's possible to enforce the suggested policy. This is a code issue. Maybe sacrificing can leave behind a body for the heretic to play with or something, or have it drop organs, but with the current state of heretic, this policy is not feasibly enforceable.

*Bwoink* Admeme: Hey why did you chop off Jimbob Assistant's head instead of just sacrificing him?
Heretic: I wanted his eyes/head/organs/etc. for rituals
Admeme: Okay.
*End of ticket.*

Unless I'm missing something here this is the only way this can play out.

Man heretic has been absolutely gutted as an antagonist. Why not remove sac's entirely and make heretics just do fetch quests like traitor?

No, rule 4.

Also:

Make sacrifice gib again.

Rule 4 is limited on The unrobust containment board Manuel so using that as a reason to argue against this change doesn’t really accomplish much.

Code issue, heretics need organs for everrything but their only way to get them is surgery and disembowling.

Bring back gibbing. It forces heretics to think about how they'll clean up their mess and doesn't need workaround solutions like phobia traumas. Make it louder from long distance too.

RRing isn't the end of the world, either. Wait for a midround or go do something for an hour or so. People who complain about RRing go into the bad opinion zone.

There are so many reasons for heretics to decap sacs other than “to maximize the people removed from the round.” For instance:

• Eyes for a focus/ashen eyes
• Limbs for raw prophets
• Organs for the random ritual of knowledge requirements
• Dead bodies for eventual ascension
• No risk of sec/command sacs ‘rediscovering’ you after revival

I’ll go one step further — it’s better for the game to RR your sac. Heretics are supposed to be religious zealots that use the organs and bodies of their sacs to craft eldrich abominations and voodoo items, and going to the protolathe to print out your cybernetic organs and genetics for monkey humans — which is what most people do now — completely ruins the thematics of the antag.

It’s incredibly lame that now getting sacced just means running around in dreamland for a few minutes then grabbing psicodine when you return. It also sucks this was a serverwide code change clearly made for Manuel.

This is a code issue, and yet another very good argument as to why the funny hand room should be removed and replaced with something else.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:46 pm No, rule 4.

MRP

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:58 pm This is a code issue, and yet another very good argument as to why the funny hand room should be removed and replaced with something else.

I feel like if anyone can come up with a good alternative, someone would be willing to implement it. Not sure about his opinion now, but I remember Melbert being open to suggestions if they're well thought out. But he seems pretty busy with swing combat atm.

Also, the beheading actually can do two things. It can enable a hastier sacrifice, but it also prevents the target from being afflicted with the phobias. People do it not just to RR, but also as a courtesy so they aren't stuck being stunlocked all round to the point they wish they were RR'd. They leave the head and body behind for someone to collect.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:58 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:58 pm This is a code issue, and yet another very good argument as to why the funny hand room should be removed and replaced with something else.

I feel like if anyone can come up with a good alternative, someone would be willing to implement it.

The gib was always the good solution.

Gibbing was very lame, it got removed for a reason.

Do they not need a brain to be sacrificed? I assumed without the brain they aren't considered the player and aren't a valid sacrifice target since it's just a brainless body?

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:01 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:58 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:58 pm This is a code issue, and yet another very good argument as to why the funny hand room should be removed and replaced with something else.

I feel like if anyone can come up with a good alternative, someone would be willing to implement it.

The gib was always the good solution.

It's very easy for LRP players to say "Who cares about being round removed, you can just go to another server" when you have two other options. MRP only has Manuel (Campbell doesn't count, it's turned into its own beast) and midrounds suck when you want to roleplay. The gib was unfun and sucks.

NoxVS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:22 pm Do they not need a brain to be sacrificed? I assumed without the brain they aren't considered the player and aren't a valid sacrifice target since it's just a brainless body?

I believe it isn't tied to the mind it is tied to the body.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:49 pm Gibbing was very lame, it got removed for a reason.

It’s not like heretic is the only antagonist that used to gib people as a mechanic, we have lings that will suck all the juices out of your body. Heretic sacrifices should cuck you, end of story.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:38 pm

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:01 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:58 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:58 pm This is a code issue, and yet another very good argument as to why the funny hand room should be removed and replaced with something else.

I feel like if anyone can come up with a good alternative, someone would be willing to implement it.

The gib was always the good solution.

It's very easy for LRP players to say "Who cares about being round removed, you can just go to another server" when you have two other options. MRP only has Manuel (Campbell doesn't count, it's turned into its own beast) and midrounds suck when you want to roleplay. The gib was unfun and sucks.

I can count on one hand the times I’ve jumped to another server after dying, it’s incredibly rare. I usually much prefer to watch the rest of the round and then join the next, maybe even get a midround.

People have developed unhealthy views about dying and RR which unfortunately has spread to the codebase. It is okay to die. It is okay to be RR’d by antagonists. It’s okay to sit out the round. That is the entire reason antags are scary, if you got revived 5 min later they wouldn’t be very scary would they?

NoxVS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:22 pm Do they not need a brain to be sacrificed? I assumed without the brain they aren't considered the player and aren't a valid sacrifice target since it's just a brainless body?

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:51 pm I believe it isn't tied to the mind it is tied to the body.

It is tied to the mind, but it also checks the last mind that occupied the body in addition to the current mind (if any). So beheaded people can still be sacrificed properly.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:21 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:38 pm

CPTANT wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:01 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:58 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:58 pm This is a code issue, and yet another very good argument as to why the funny hand room should be removed and replaced with something else.

I feel like if anyone can come up with a good alternative, someone would be willing to implement it.

The gib was always the good solution.

It's very easy for LRP players to say "Who cares about being round removed, you can just go to another server" when you have two other options. MRP only has Manuel (Campbell doesn't count, it's turned into its own beast) and midrounds suck when you want to roleplay. The gib was unfun and sucks.

I can count on one hand the times I’ve jumped to another server after dying, it’s incredibly rare. I usually much prefer to watch the rest of the round and then join the next, maybe even get a midround.

People have developed unhealthy views about dying and RR which unfortunately has spread to the codebase. It is okay to die. It is okay to be RR’d by antagonists. It’s okay to sit out the round. That is the entire reason antags are scary, if you got revived 5 min later they wouldn’t be very scary would they?

When the round is 45 minutes long, and it's probably 25-30 before you die, it's not that big a deal.

When the round is 90-120 minutes long and you get RR'd about 40 minutes in, it's a bigger loss out.

Antags can still be scary even if you'll be revived, because there's the chance you aren't. And even if you are, sure it's not scary to you on an OOC level, but you probably still don't want to die IC. If you can't separate the two, that's on you. It still creates tension and danger.

There are also other ways to get organs that don't require killing players (mutating and killing monkeys, stealing bodies from morgue)

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:40 pm When the round is 45 minutes long, and it's probably 25-30 before you die, it's not that big a deal.

When the round is 90-120 minutes long and you get RR'd about 40 minutes in, it's a bigger loss out.

Antags can still be scary even if you'll be revived, because there's the chance you aren't. And even if you are, sure it's not scary to you on an OOC level, but you probably still don't want to die IC. If you can't separate the two, that's on you. It still creates tension and danger.

I think the servers struggle with making antags scary, and it's because there are very few antags that actually have to murder someone nowadays. Heretic sacs revive, cult and revs convert, and traitor objectives are now intentionally centered around sabotage and minor annoyances instead of murder.

So if heretic, one of the few normal weight antags, happens to cause you to be RR'd, if you're unfortunate enough to be a target, and unfortunate enough to be chosen, and lose the fight, then maybe it's okay for that very rare scenario to end up with you round removed, even if it's for 30+ minutes.

I also fundamentally disagree that this is an issue of people not being able to separate IC and OOC. The whole reason the brain trauma thing was added was so people would avoid getting sacced more, because as it turns out, people stop giving a shit about being sacced when there's no repercussion aside from 5 min in the funny world. Is that failRP because they should still want to avoid it IC? Sure, but generally the game should influence OOC feelings by punishing/rewarding you to inform your IC feelings.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:58 pm There are also other ways to get organs that don't require killing players (mutating and killing monkeys, stealing bodies from morgue)

Heretics should not be going out of their way to be as harmless as possible, they shouldn't give a flying fuck about "imposing" on someone else's round. They are antagonists, they cause issues and conflict. Printing out organs and using monkeys for all your spells is against the spirit of the antag and really the game.

I personally think you should still be sent to the funny DDR if you get funny gibbed while you still have a soul and stuff and aren't SSD/DNR. The drawback being to return in a weakened 60 HP body with absolutely nothing. That way, you're kinda fucked if you go up against the heretic again or whatever, but otherwise you can still exist with the phobia and vibe.

On top of that, it'd be neat if the sacrificee in this case could go back to the last location they remembered (died) and do their own heretic ritual of sorts with a fresh corpse as tribute (from monkey or whatever, get fresh organs) and be able to "restore their lingering life essence" type of shit [think retrieving bloodstain in Dark Souls] to get that missing health back so they're not so feeble. They'll hella keep the metaprotections against hunting the heretic and the phobia, still, but potentially just to recover their shit or what's left of it. Also risky if the heretic returns to double dip on the same hideout and catches you.

just make decapitated/debrained saccs not count

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:30 am just make decapitated saccs not count

bold move when you have the antag with the super duper sharp-as-a-razor sickle that accidentally does a whoopsie daisies, efforts invalid, do surgery now.

AlamoTurtle wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:32 am

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:30 am just make decapitated saccs not count

bold move when you have the antag with the super duper sharp-as-a-razor sickle that accidentally does a whoopsie daisies, efforts invalid, do surgery now.

Doesn’t heretic have, like, four different hard stuns or am I thinking of a different antagonist?

Just attack the torso. Organs can be replaced if research or coroner are doing their jobs. If the person has their suit sensors on then a paramedic/mediborg can recover the body.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:39 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:40 pm When the round is 45 minutes long, and it's probably 25-30 before you die, it's not that big a deal.

When the round is 90-120 minutes long and you get RR'd about 40 minutes in, it's a bigger loss out.

Antags can still be scary even if you'll be revived, because there's the chance you aren't. And even if you are, sure it's not scary to you on an OOC level, but you probably still don't want to die IC. If you can't separate the two, that's on you. It still creates tension and danger.

I think the servers struggle with making antags scary, and it's because there are very few antags that actually have to murder someone nowadays. Heretic sacs revive, cult and revs convert, and traitor objectives are now intentionally centered around sabotage and minor annoyances instead of murder.

So if heretic, one of the few normal weight antags, happens to cause you to be RR'd, if you're unfortunate enough to be a target, and unfortunate enough to be chosen, and lose the fight, then maybe it's okay for that very rare scenario to end up with you round removed, even if it's for 30+ minutes.

30+ whatever.

About an hour, though? That's not as fun. I want to roleplay. That's why I'm here. Sitting around in ghost land for an hour is not doing that. Taking a midround is not doing that. The game-side of things is important to create a background for it, to give us something to do between those interactions and to guide the interactions themselves, to make it different and more meaningful than just writing up a storm in Discord or something.

But taking a midround doesn't give me that. All it does is give me the game side. I'm not invested in the Nightmare I get, and it's not like I get many opportunities to actually roleplay as a nukie. A Dragon? Absolutely none. A blob? I can't even speak.

It's not inherently a bad thing if people surrender to sacrifice, because there's interesting opportunities for it. A Heretic trading their help with something for the sacrifice. The sacrificee surrendering to it because the alternative is much worse. The option for roleplay to be used as a path is always great.

But, to the point that created this conversation: RR's are bad. Death can still be meaningful, even if you're revived afterward. You just have to let it be.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:51 am 30+ whatever.

About an hour, though? That's not as fun. I want to roleplay. That's why I'm here. Sitting around in ghost land for an hour is not doing that. Taking a midround is not doing that. The game-side of things is important to create a background for it, to give us something to do between those interactions and to guide the interactions themselves, to make it different and more meaningful than just writing up a storm in Discord or something.

But taking a midround doesn't give me that. All it does is give me the game side. I'm not invested in the Nightmare I get, and it's not like I get many opportunities to actually roleplay as a nukie. A Dragon? Absolutely none. A blob? I can't even speak.

To be honest my response is just summed up by rule 10

It's not fun to be removed from the game. It sucks especially the times you're removed early. But that's sort of just too bad, losing is part of the game, you will lose and it's okay.

Getting RR'd is just losing. This rule clearly isn't written for people who died then got revived 5 min later!

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:51 amIt's not inherently a bad thing if people surrender to sacrifice, because there's interesting opportunities for it. A Heretic trading their help with something for the sacrifice. The sacrificee surrendering to it because the alternative is much worse. The option for roleplay to be used as a path is always great.

It can be done sometimes. For instance one time I walked in on someone in the abandoned bar, asked what they were up to, and they said it was a "sleep club." Talked for a while before eventually emote --> sleep and then they drew a rune and sacced me while I was asleep. I thought that was pretty clever and funny.

But surrendering really doesn't make sense from an RP perspective. It'll revive you either way so you might as well fight to escape. I suppose there are niche cases but the vast majority of the time it's some extremely cringe "can I sac you pleaasseee I only need 2 to ascend."

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:07 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:51 am 30+ whatever.

About an hour, though? That's not as fun. I want to roleplay. That's why I'm here. Sitting around in ghost land for an hour is not doing that. Taking a midround is not doing that. The game-side of things is important to create a background for it, to give us something to do between those interactions and to guide the interactions themselves, to make it different and more meaningful than just writing up a storm in Discord or something.

But taking a midround doesn't give me that. All it does is give me the game side. I'm not invested in the Nightmare I get, and it's not like I get many opportunities to actually roleplay as a nukie. A Dragon? Absolutely none. A blob? I can't even speak.

To be honest my response is just summed up by rule 10

It's not fun to be removed from the game. It sucks especially the times you're removed early. But that's sort of just too bad, losing is part of the game, you will lose and it's okay.

Sure. But even ignoring the separation between codebase and server (because it's only brought up when people want to, rather than a true standard), that doesn't mean we can't decide to design the game to be more fun. Yeah, sometimes you will die like that and you won't be found. Maybe the traitor hides your body so that you can't be revived because you're an Assassinate objective (solveable with code tbh) or because they don't want you to snitch. Rule 10, sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

But a game is supposed to be fun, and the purpose of Rule 10 is so people don't bitch "But I didn't even know there was a bomb there!!! Revive me!!!" That doesn't mean we should be designing the game to be actively un-fun and just pointing at Rule 10 to say "Suck shit".

Sinful wrote:

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:51 amIt's not inherently a bad thing if people surrender to sacrifice, because there's interesting opportunities for it. A Heretic trading their help with something for the sacrifice. The sacrificee surrendering to it because the alternative is much worse. The option for roleplay to be used as a path is always great.

It can be done sometimes. For instance one time I walked in on someone in the abandoned bar, asked what they were up to, and they said it was a "sleep club." Talked for a while before eventually emote --> sleep and then they drew a rune and sacced me while I was asleep. I thought that was pretty clever and funny.

But surrendering really doesn't make sense from an RP perspective. It'll revive you either way so you might as well fight to escape. I suppose there are niche cases but the vast majority of the time it's some extremely cringe "can I sac you pleaasseee I only need 2 to ascend."

Again, that's a failure of separation between IC and OOC from the player. Sure, it'll revive me either way, but I don't really want to get disemboweled. Even if I somehow don't (maybe I'm wearing armour) I don't really want to Die. Maybe I know that a loss is inevitable and I at least don't want it to hurt. I can come out the other side traumatized but at least intact.

On the flip side, maybe your character is overconfident and cocksure. Maybe he thinks he really can beat down that Heretic with his bare hands. Maybe he'd rather risk the physical injury than go through the mental hellscape that is the Mansus Realms.

I think it's good to have the options for things to be solved through roleplay. It allows the depth of peoples' characters to come out more.

Not this shit again.

"No YOU make the gun unfun" "bla bla different people find different things fun'.

It's just once again showing the incompatibility of one codebase for both lrp and mrp. This didn't use to be an issue, everyone knew what they signed up for, violent and frequent death was always part of the game premise before mrp came along, now mrp is forcing their totally different game vision on the lrp players once again.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:47 am Not this shit again.

"No YOU make the gun unfun" "bla bla different people find different things fun'.

It's just once again showing the incompatibility of one codebase for both lrp and mrp. This didn't use to be an issue, everyone knew what they signed up for, violent and frequent death was always part of the game premise before mrp came along, now mrp is forcing their totally different game vision on the lrp players once again.

I don't think "Those damn MRP players, trying to make me have more fun by making me not have to sit out half the game" is the gotcha you think it is, especially when back in your Good Old Days, you had Cloning.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:27 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:47 am Not this shit again.

"No YOU make the gun unfun" "bla bla different people find different things fun'.

It's just once again showing the incompatibility of one codebase for both lrp and mrp. This didn't use to be an issue, everyone knew what they signed up for, violent and frequent death was always part of the game premise before mrp came along, now mrp is forcing their totally different game vision on the lrp players once again.

I don't think "Those damn MRP players, trying to make me have more fun by making me not have to sit out half the game" is the gotcha you think it is, especially when back in your Good Old Days, you had Cloning.

Once again trying to determine for other people what is fun. Wet noodle antags have never ever been fun. Fear and tension are core design elements of the game. You are the one not realizing that.

Cloning is a moot point, there were always antags that didn't allow you to be cloned such as wizards and lings.

As someone who started on lrp and switched to mrp for quite a while now (even though im currently on break)

Give back the gib, the antags are so bland it hurts
And the Trauma doesnt even impact people that much, they still get sacced willingly just to get it over with
The trauma is really only effective on lrp because atleast there people care about the murdering heretic

Pretty much agree with what sinful says in here
Antags should be scary, and i personally miss the lairs heretics had because they added another element of horror

So in the end:
No, dont disallow it
Let antags be scary if they want to

Hey, if this is just going to descend into an argument about code changes and hand wringing about MRP, maybe this is losing sight of the actual relevant discussion at hand. Let's not drag this thread into another pissing match about the server cultures or code decisions, even if the subject has mostly concluded on it being a code issue.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:50 pm Hey, if this is just going to descend into an argument about code changes and hand wringing about MRP, maybe this is losing sight of the actual relevant discussion at hand. Let's not drag this thread into another pissing match about the server cultures or code decisions, even if the subject has mostly concluded on it being a code issue.

I feel like the problem is that it, at its core, is a code issue. We can talk until we're blue in the face about whether or not we should punish for it, but at the end of the day the fact that it's possible is the issue, not whether or not we should be banning for doing it.

RR'ing isn't against MRP rules, and particularly aligns with the goals of an antagonist that is extremely loud and also extremely weak early on. Traitors are under no such requirement to make sure you get revived (as long as you're an objective) as that can make things more difficult for them, so why enforce it for Heretics when their sacrifices are also their objectives?
If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden. (Smart heretics fullstrip their victims anyway for IDs and gear)

Would forcing players to keep bodies intact, losing out on precious organs and risking being outed, make the game better? Should sacrificed players just go do something else for an hour or so?

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:30 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:27 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:47 am Not this shit again.

"No YOU make the gun unfun" "bla bla different people find different things fun'.

It's just once again showing the incompatibility of one codebase for both lrp and mrp. This didn't use to be an issue, everyone knew what they signed up for, violent and frequent death was always part of the game premise before mrp came along, now mrp is forcing their totally different game vision on the lrp players once again.

I don't think "Those damn MRP players, trying to make me have more fun by making me not have to sit out half the game" is the gotcha you think it is, especially when back in your Good Old Days, you had Cloning.

Once again trying to determine for other people what is fun. Wet noodle antags have never ever been fun. Fear and tension are core design elements of the game. You are the one not realizing that.

Cloning is a moot point, there were always antags that didn't allow you to be cloned such as wizards and lings.

You could always clone people that were killed by wizards and lings, fucking zoomer.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:59 am

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:43 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:59 am

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

It's in-game. After you come back from the shadow realm, you get text that says you can't remember what happened, only that you remember "the hands".

the heretic funny dimension was added because heretic forced all sacrificed to become nearly unrevivable, which was very much not in line with how MRP was intended.

currently players have a choice on whether they chop up their victims or let them go to spooky hands dimension, and this choice is much healthier for the game.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:01 pm

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:43 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:59 am

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

It's in-game. After you come back from the shadow realm, you get text that says you can't remember what happened, only that you remember "the hands".

Of course once they see you with a focus, or your wanted status “heretic,” or read any comms callouts, they’re allowed to “re-learn” you’re a heretic and then act on that info (which is why I say the decap sac is useful for sec and command).

carshalash wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:03 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:30 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:27 am

CPTANT wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:47 am Not this shit again.

"No YOU make the gun unfun" "bla bla different people find different things fun'.

It's just once again showing the incompatibility of one codebase for both lrp and mrp. This didn't use to be an issue, everyone knew what they signed up for, violent and frequent death was always part of the game premise before mrp came along, now mrp is forcing their totally different game vision on the lrp players once again.

I don't think "Those damn MRP players, trying to make me have more fun by making me not have to sit out half the game" is the gotcha you think it is, especially when back in your Good Old Days, you had Cloning.

Once again trying to determine for other people what is fun. Wet noodle antags have never ever been fun. Fear and tension are core design elements of the game. You are the one not realizing that.

Cloning is a moot point, there were always antags that didn't allow you to be cloned such as wizards and lings.

You could always clone people that were killed by wizards and lings, fucking zoomer.

Yeah if you are going through a huge pain in the ass with either synthflesh or monkey transfers. But if you go through that much effort you can also still revive gibbed heretic victims.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:58 pm There are also other ways to get organs that don't require killing players (mutating and killing monkeys, stealing bodies from morgue)

Why the fuck am I gonna do that when there's free real estate right there

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:29 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:01 pm

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:43 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:59 am

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

It's in-game. After you come back from the shadow realm, you get text that says you can't remember what happened, only that you remember "the hands".

Of course once they see you with a focus, or your wanted status “heretic,” or read any comms callouts, they’re allowed to “re-learn” you’re a heretic and then act on that info (which is why I say the decap sac is useful for sec and command).

You know who else could do that? Literally anyone on the station. But the person who you sac'd is less likely to because of the trauma.

Which means if you don't want Sec or anyone else to try and kill you, you go stealthy. And only go Loud if you're caught or you think you can kill everyone who tries to stop you. Literally nothing has changed for you, whether the sacrifice comes back to the station alive, or gets gibbed. But it means someone else gets to not just sit on their thumb in deadchat, and now has a new lens to roleplay through.

The thing you're not mentioning is that your first sacrifice automatically makes you loud unless they both fail the minigame AND their body isn't found. Heretics by the very game mechanics are loud both through their sacrifices being loud and the rifts they tap usually outing their identity.

I suppose I should put it this way then: In what way is it different to debrain a sacrifice versus fullstrip them? Either way they're likely round removed unless they win the minigame, and the aheal function at the start of said minigame works... Questionably.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 6:34 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:29 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:01 pm

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:43 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:59 am

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

It's in-game. After you come back from the shadow realm, you get text that says you can't remember what happened, only that you remember "the hands".

Of course once they see you with a focus, or your wanted status “heretic,” or read any comms callouts, they’re allowed to “re-learn” you’re a heretic and then act on that info (which is why I say the decap sac is useful for sec and command).

You know who else could do that? Literally anyone on the station. But the person who you sac'd is less likely to because of the trauma.

Which means if you don't want Sec or anyone else to try and kill you, you go stealthy. And only go Loud if you're caught or you think you can kill everyone who tries to stop you. Literally nothing has changed for you, whether the sacrifice comes back to the station alive, or gets gibbed. But it means someone else gets to not just sit on their thumb in deadchat, and now has a new lens to roleplay through.

“Literally anyone on the station” probably don’t care as much about you as the guy that you just brutally murdered and struck with a permanent brain trauma! The trauma is made irrelevant by psicodine anyway.

Really I see no reason to willingly resurrect sec/command targets and thus create another individual you’ll inevitably encounter or have to fight later on, either after ascension or while making sacs. There’s nothing worse than sparing someone so they ”have a new lens to roleplay through” or “to be a nice guy” and then have them eventually fuck you over 20 minutes later. You are an antagonist, it’s fine to act like an antagonist and be a bit of a selfish asshole in how you play!

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:39 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 6:34 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:29 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:01 pm

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:43 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:59 am

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:48 am If I'm a Heretic, I wouldn't want my sacrifice to be able to out me early on. There's not much in the way of stopping players from doing just that outside of hoping that they failed the minigame and reappeared somewhere hidden.

It's specifically against the rules, which I'd wager is a pretty effective way of stopping it.

There's no rulings on the main rules page, MRP rules, or the headmin rulings page regarding sacrifices calling out the heretic nor can I find any ruling here. Maybe I'm bad at research, but it seems there's no rule against heretic call outs post-sacrifice.

It's in-game. After you come back from the shadow realm, you get text that says you can't remember what happened, only that you remember "the hands".

Of course once they see you with a focus, or your wanted status “heretic,” or read any comms callouts, they’re allowed to “re-learn” you’re a heretic and then act on that info (which is why I say the decap sac is useful for sec and command).

You know who else could do that? Literally anyone on the station. But the person who you sac'd is less likely to because of the trauma.

Which means if you don't want Sec or anyone else to try and kill you, you go stealthy. And only go Loud if you're caught or you think you can kill everyone who tries to stop you. Literally nothing has changed for you, whether the sacrifice comes back to the station alive, or gets gibbed. But it means someone else gets to not just sit on their thumb in deadchat, and now has a new lens to roleplay through.

“Literally anyone on the station” probably don’t care as much about you as the guy that you just brutally murdered and struck with a permanent brain trauma! The trauma is made irrelevant by psicodine anyway.

Really I see no reason to willingly resurrect sec/command targets and thus create another individual you’ll inevitably encounter or have to fight later on, either after ascension or while making sacs. There’s nothing worse than sparing someone so they ”have a new lens to roleplay through” or “to be a nice guy” and then have them eventually fuck you over 20 minutes later. You are an antagonist, it’s fine to act like an antagonist and be a bit of a selfish asshole in how you play!

Iunno man, sounds like you care more about some funny green text more than you do about being interesting. Rule 10 applies to antags, too. Sometimes you'll just lose. Don't go into it expecting to win, go into it expecting to make the game more fun by being that driving force for people. That's the secret to antagging.

But the thing is? That driving force doesn't matter to the people who are just out of the game for the round, because they don't get to interact with it.

BrianBackslide wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 6:46 pm The thing you're not mentioning is that your first sacrifice automatically makes you loud unless they both fail the minigame AND their body isn't found. Heretics by the very game mechanics are loud both through their sacrifices being loud and the rifts they tap usually outing their identity.

I suppose I should put it this way then: In what way is it different to debrain a sacrifice versus fullstrip them? Either way they're likely round removed unless they win the minigame, and the aheal function at the start of said minigame works... Questionably.

Heretics are also loud through the very nature of grabbing rifts showing that they exist in the round at all. Much like...almost anything a progtot does. Those posters? Damn, I guess they're loud.

I've honestly never lost the minigame before, and I'm on like, 250 ping. But if that's the case, then it is what it is. Someone might find the body eventually. That's a lot better than the brain being hidden in some locker in deep maint, if anything.