/tg/Station 13

So, yesterday I had a permabrig prisoner and was taking to have him borg'd. First a security borg stunned me, (Note, I am the HoS and he's a security borg.) and another officer within robotics.

Now, I get that force borging is "human harm" but that's the thing, I caught up with the borg, took the prisoner and /ordered/ the borg to go to the brig, he didn't follow his order (Borg's name is Girlypants or someshit like that, not even a serious name.)

The problem: Borg's need to follow orders when given by a head of staff, especially in their area of module, I don't know if I want to post a ban request or not for a jobban on the borg, and with all of this aggravation with a possible escaped prisoner I couldn't coordinate a plan sooner to deal with shadowlings below virology, so because of the borg not following it's orders and leaving me be he decided to come /back/ to robotics to stun me and the officer, again for the second time (Note: I had the borg locked down before he came back to robotics, he was all the way in brig at this time.)

The module carries no weight in who they listen to specifically. A secborg should listen to random mcgreyshirt just as much as the head of security. You are both humans, there is no "rank" in the asimov lawset.

Why would the borg follow a law 2 order from you to ignore a law 1 issue currently in front of him? You brought it on yourself.

You completely misunderstand how borgs work.

A: It does not matter what module a borg picks, they all follow their laws in the exact same way.
B: Asimov borgs do not give a fuck about the chain of command, they give a fuck about their laws
C: You're literally telling the borg to go away so you can murder someone. The borg is OBLIGED to do anything it takes, barring human harm to prevent this.

Even if the guy is a murderer, even if saving his life WILL cause more people to die, the borg MUST prevent the immediate human harm.

When dealing with Asimov borgs - and AIs - as (effectively non-Asimov) Security, you have a few options:

- Agree to the silicon's suggestion of 'don't forceborg them' and instead give them a choice - solitary in a straitjacket or 'voluntary' borging. If they say they volunteer in front of the AI, it's legit.
- Agree to the silicon's suggestion of 'don't forceborg' them, take them back to the Brig, and wait until the borg leaves. Then forceborg them.
- Try and brute-force through the silicons. This probably won't end well.
- Subvert the silicons. This... also probably won't end well, but if you're forceborging someone, it's a valid option.

The borg did not witness any harm taking place, he only saw us in robotics and then stunned 2 officers. I ordered the borg to go to the brig in the hallway outside of medical past the airlocks and took the prisoner elsewhere. He then aided in the man's escape from security and didn't even take him back to the brig.

Also, I've been arrested by a borg before, and they not follow law 2 when ordered to release me when I wouldn't be of any harm to humans, it was known the virologist had spread a disease and when interrogated when "I don't know, I just put alot of stuff together that I thought looked good and spread it around." Even if it turned out to be a "good" virus/disease before that was known it could have been the black plague.

The main problem is, the borg didn't follow his order to go to brig, and followed me to robotics, and we're not allowed to shut them down? I locked him down, or rather had the RD do it, and the AI unlocked him without even asking the reason, in which case the borg's life was not in danger as it was in the brig area and I had someone change it's battery.

It's fine to lock the borg down (not forever, but in this example, while you borg the prisoner), but if the borg suspects the prisoner is going to get harmed, it will ignore any orders, in order to try stop the harm, even if that results in them escaping.

Borgs not releasing you when you ask, and aren't a law 1 threat, is an entirely seperate issue, which revolvers around secborgs playing sec that are borgs, not borgs that have red paint.

Alright, so basically Asimov is no rank, and Paladin is a ranking system? It was just /really/ really frustrating last night.

Main thing to remember with borgs is they're not human, they're silicon, which mean their laws come before absolutely anything.
Trying to make a borg violate it's laws isn't going to work, and is only going to cause yourself grief.

P.A.L.A.D.I.N is 'do the right thing'. If the Captain is running around shooting people, a Paladin AI could, in theory, doorcrush them (as to let them continue would be an evil act).
You're thinking of T.Y.R.A.N.T, I think - 'respect authority figures so long as they're strong, and punish people who challenge them unless they're stronger'.

It's best to negotiate with silicons where you can, I've found. If it's not harmful, and you can prove your intentions aren't harmful any more, they won't mind - for forceborging, it's like so:

Forceborging is harmful, and you are forceborging, therefore law one must stop.
Remove any three of these and it works for you. If they volunteer, it's not forced; if they don't see you do it, it didn't happen; if you subvert/lockdown them, they can't do anything.

You could do 'go away or I'll kill them right here and now', but that's really not going to get you on their good side... and if they're a security borg, you're suddenly on the floor and in cuffs for Law One.

This is the wrong section of the forum please go to policy discussion i shall ask someone to loci this thread when i get home.

Coders cant regulate how players act that is something for admins. The only IC way is lock down the borg. Coders are able to create tools to allow IC regulation though.

If the prisoner asked to be borged tgat is not a forced borging and therefore murder the borgs cant do squat in that case in my opinion and i believe that is policy as well.

I've moved this to policy discussion since thats the closest thing to a proper section for this thread.

Anywho, The fact that borgs/ais are not on anyone's side starting out is basically a requirement to keep them from becoming OP.

TheNightingale wrote:When dealing with Asimov borgs - and AIs - as (effectively non-Asimov) Security, you have a few options:

- Agree to the silicon's suggestion of 'don't forceborg them' and instead give them a choice - solitary in a straitjacket or 'voluntary' borging. If they say they volunteer in front of the AI, it's legit.
- Agree to the silicon's suggestion of 'don't forceborg' them, take them back to the Brig, and wait until the borg leaves. Then forceborg them.
- Try and brute-force through the silicons. This probably won't end well.
- Subvert the silicons. This... also probably won't end well, but if you're forceborging someone, it's a valid option.

Take them to a gulag and execute them away from prying eyes*

*note: this does run the risk of the person going to sec borg and arresting you for being 'harmful', though I think we finally agreed this was going into the being a dick territory and so bannable finally.

Don't forget borgs often get their ques of human harm from the AI. You could be ordering the borg to go into the hallway, etc but if the AI heard you say "We're gonna force borg this guy" and tells the borg, the borg isn't going to listen to you.

Now, what really grinds my gears and I think admins should be cracking down on, is the borgs who think that just because some instance of harm happened once that they have to antagonize security for the rest of the round. Just because you weren't able to prevent someone being borg'd, or killed or even yourself being borg'd doesn't mean you have the right to arrest the HoS and put him in perma/lock him into his office and disobey his every command. Hiding behind the "He beat a prisoner already once/killed someone with the captain's permission so me locking him up now prevents future harm!" is a real stretch as we've already all established it's about *IMMEDIATE* harm.


All in all, Robocop is the superior law set and anyone who uploads PALADIN instead of that is a moron.

QuartzCrystal wrote:Hiding behind the "He beat a prisoner already once/killed someone with the captain's permission so me locking him up now prevents future harm!" is a real stretch as we've already all established it's about *IMMEDIATE* harm.

That's not a real stretch, it's following Law 1. It's the exact purpose of the Asimov lawset, to be a neutral party and prevent major fuckery. If death or near death is ever involved, silicons are justified in taking measures against whoever is responsible (individuals rather than entire groups).

We can either have asimov in name only, with tons of by-laws governing what it can and cannot do.
Or we can allow HoSes to nuke the AI sat when it starts being a pain the arse.

Not this middle ground of "My laws let me antagonise you so I'm going to do it but you can't antagonise me back or I'll get the admins on you - nurrrrrrrrhhhh"


I agree with Quartz, Robocop is best law set - whenever I play captain I change the lawset to that straight away, I've yet to hear anyone complain - neither crew nor antag.

Scott wrote:

QuartzCrystal wrote:Hiding behind the "He beat a prisoner already once/killed someone with the captain's permission so me locking him up now prevents future harm!" is a real stretch as we've already all established it's about *IMMEDIATE* harm.

That's not a real stretch, it's following Law 1. It's the exact purpose of the Asimov lawset, to be a neutral party and prevent major fuckery. If death or near death is ever involved, silicons are justified in taking measures against whoever is responsible (individuals rather than entire groups).

The issue is (and I perhaps have a different perspective due to seeing this happen as an admin) when the HoS and captain borg a prisoner or execute one. Then the AI spends the remaining 30 minutes of the round antagonizing the HoS and captain instead of answering commands from the rest of the crew or, sometimes in some cases I've seen, preventing further deaths elsewhere in the station.

Ban that player from silicon.

Malkevin wrote:We can either have asimov in name only, with tons of by-laws governing what it can and cannot do.
Or we can allow HoSes to nuke the AI sat when it starts being a pain the arse.

Not this middle ground of "My laws let me antagonise you so I'm going to do it but you can't antagonise me back or I'll get the admins on you - nurrrrrrrrhhhh"


I agree with Quartz, Robocop is best law set - whenever I play captain I change the lawset to that straight away, I've yet to hear anyone complain - neither crew nor antag.

We already have the second one though, most of the policy is to clarify what to do in situations. If people weren't retarded all the time when talking about AIs most of that wouldn't be necessary.

sirnat wrote:The borg did not witness any harm taking place, he only saw us in robotics and then stunned 2 officers. I ordered the borg to go to the brig in the hallway outside of medical past the airlocks and took the prisoner elsewhere. He then aided in the man's escape from security and didn't even take him back to the brig.

I was the one that was being forceborged. I managed to yell onto one of the intercoms with :i that I was being forceborged, so the AI and borgs knew your intention. I was also constantly shouting to the borgs that I was being forceborged as well, and there were plenty in the halls you took me past.

So that's blatantly false. Regardless, he can't take me back to the brig because you'll just go back and forceborg me (i.e. security is perpetuating human harm and refuses to back down / is attacking the borgs -> security is unsafe -> prisoner cannot go to security -> prisoner must be put somewhere safe or released, since the prisoner is not a current law 1 threat, but a latent one, while security is a current law 1 threat, meaning it takes priority). As an aside, I was 100% innocent that round and released a beneficial virus that I pretended was a terrible plague, so I wasn't even a latent law 1 threat, just an idiot. He probably didn't know this, though.

Admittedly, the logic on release of a traitor is a bit sketchy, but I think it was valid. Not that I'd do that myself - I'd probably just lock the prisoner in one of the atmos siderooms and bolt it.

The best part is the massive misunderstanding about sillicon in general from people who have hardly played them, like the OP, yet there are hundreds of threads on it.

Half of the sillion still play validhunter yet don't get any punishment for it too.